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The Engineer
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Neutrinos Probably Have Mass - Part II

07/05/2011 8:47 AM

As a follow up to a similar post from a week ago, Fermilab has also observed the transformation of muon neutrinos to electron neutrinos.

Here is the article:

Fermilab experiment weighs in on neutrino mystery

Scientists of the MINOS experiment at the Department of Energy's Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory announced today (June 24) the results from a search for a rare phenomenon, the transformation of muon neutrinos into electron neutrinos. The result is consistent with and significantly constrains a measurement reported 10 days ago by the Japanese T2K experiment, which announced an indication of this type of transformation.

The results of these two experiments could have implications for our understanding of the role that neutrinos may have played in the evolution of the universe. If muon neutrinos transform into electron neutrinos, neutrinos could be the reason that the big bang produced more matter than antimatter, leading to the universe as it exists today.

The Main Injector Neutrino Oscillation Search (MINOS) at Fermilab recorded a total of 62 electron neutrino-like events. If muon neutrinos do not transform into electron neutrinos, then MINOS should have seen only 49 events. The experiment should have seen 71 events if neutrinos transform as often as suggested by recent results from the Tokai-to-Kamioka (T2K) experiment in Japan. The two experiments use different methods and analysis techniques to look for this rare transformation.

To measure the transformation of muon neutrinos into other neutrinos, the MINOS experiment sends a muon neutrino beam 450 miles (735 kilometers) through the earth from the Main Injector accelerator at Fermilab to a 5,000-ton neutrino detector, located half a mile underground in the Soudan Underground Laboratory in northern Minnesota. The experiment uses two almost identical detectors: the detector at Fermilab is used to check the purity of the muon neutrino beam, and the detector at Soudan looks for electron and muon neutrinos. The neutrinos' trip from Fermilab to Soudan takes about one four hundredths of a second, giving the neutrinos enough time to change their identities.

For more than a decade, scientists have seen evidence that the three known types of neutrinos can morph into each other. Experiments have found that muon neutrinos disappear, with some of the best measurements provided by the MINOS experiment. Scientists think that a large fraction of these muon neutrinos transform into tau neutrinos, which so far have been very hard to detect, and they suspect that a tiny fraction transform into electron neutrinos.

Article Continues Here

Additional Articles:

http://news.discovery.com/space/fermilabs-minos-experiment-confirms-neutrino-quick-change-110704.html#mkcpgn=rssnws1

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/06/neutrino-particle-oscillation/

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#1

Re: Neutrinos Probably Have Mass - Part II

07/06/2011 12:08 AM

"...the big bang produced more matter than antimatter..."

Is that really true? The link says "At larger scales there is little proof.". Since we can see only a millionth of the total universe, and the BB is only a theory, the statement is presumptuous. Still, any experiment of evidence is interesting. Thanks for the articles. What if the antimatter became DARK?

As for the neutrinos, if they didn't have mass, what would they be? We couldn't call them particles, could we?

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Neutrinos Probably Have Mass - Part II

07/06/2011 12:54 AM

I'm not going to respond to that first comment you made, you can take that up with Fermilab if you like, it's their statement (which I personally don't have a problem with).

Certainly there is a confirmed observed Matter-Antimatter asymmetry in the observable universe, and one possible theory that can explain the very small mass of these neutrinos is for them to have massive antiparticle counterparts which could help explain the asymmetry. This however is only a hypothesis, and one I neither believe or disbelieve.

Personally, I think the asymmetry of matter to antimatter in the universe has to do with the T in CPT symmetry. Since CP violation exists, physicists conjecture that T must compensate with it's own violation to counteract the CP violation. Since antiparticles can be viewed as moving opposite in time as their particle pairs (see feynman), it makes sense to me that a T symmetry violation would create an asymmetry between particles and antiparticles in the universe. Of course, the neutrino seesaw mechanism may be simply another manifestation of this (thus my not having an opinion on this) Sort of saying the same thing like a synonym (kanye west).

Either way it's conjecture. We don't know the why yet. What we know now is the what. Neutrinos probably have mass.

You Wrote:"As for the neutrinos, if they didn't have mass, what would they be? We couldn't call them particles, could we?"
Nothing is a particle in a the classical sense whether it has mass or not. That's one of the consequences of quantum mechanics. However, Photons are massless and behave like particles.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Neutrinos Probably Have Mass - Part II

07/06/2011 11:45 PM

"Personally, I think the asymmetry of matter to antimatter in the universe has to do with the T in CPT symmetry."
So are you saying that you believe that there is a "sister" universe that occupies the same space, made mostly of antimatter, and is time reversed (i.e. going negative in time) while our universe is going positive (forward)? If so that is kind of mind boggling, but makes sense - expanding in all directions of space and all directions of time. It would be gobbling up everything everywhere and everytime.
"Nothing is a particle in a the classical sense whether it has mass or not."
I think I would have to agree. Even their existence is in dispute. I seem to want them all to have mass, but that's probably just bias. As for photons, just because they behave like particles ...

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Neutrinos Probably Have Mass - Part II

07/07/2011 10:20 AM

You Wrote:"So are you saying that you believe that there is a "sister" universe that occupies the same space, made mostly of antimatter, and is time reversed (i.e. going negative in time) while our universe is going positive (forward)?"

No, no sister universe. It's our universe, but just less intuitive. To understand, I recommend you read about CP violation. If you can understand CP violation, the rest you can start to understand. Here is what I hope will be a helpful link towards understanding. If you read it and have questions, I'll be happy to try my best to answer them.

With Regards to Mass

Concept of wave/particle duality is a complicated one that takes some getting used to. Here is an interesting link to help:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_wave

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Neutrinos Probably Have Mass - Part II

07/07/2011 8:42 PM

"No, no sister universe. It's our universe, but just less intuitive."

From your previous link on CPT symmetry:

The implication of CPT symmetry is that a "mirror-image" of our universe - with all objects having their positions reflected by an imaginary plane (corresponding to a parity inversion), all momenta reversed (corresponding to a time inversion) and with all matter replaced by antimatter (corresponding to a charge inversion)- would evolve under exactly our physical laws. The CPT transformation turns our universe into its "mirror image" and vice versa.

That, along with your comments, is where I came up with the previous statement (my interpretation). If the bulk of the antimatter is traveling backwards in time, it would be separated from us by about 26 billion years and increasing. It would seem to be occupying the same space - growing bigger farther in the past while the matter part is growing bigger in the future. If you disagree with this, ask the Q.

I am familiar with wave/particle duality. If fact I have posted threads in past years that have mentioned the concept. I have also heard of the matter wave (de Broglie wave). The link at the left is simpler and states that all matter has the duality. There have been many proofs of that.

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: Neutrinos Probably Have Mass - Part II

07/07/2011 11:18 PM

You're misunderstanding what your reading regarding CPT symmetry. When they say "mirror" they are describing a type of symmetry where if you were to look at the mirror image of a physical process it would behave the same way. Not a mirror universe. You definitely didn't get "mirror universe" from me.

I'll try to find a link to make it intuitive for you...ok (10 minutes later) I've found something that might help. It's a simpler explanation that I hope helps.

http://www.lbl.gov/abc/wallchart/chapters/05/2.html

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Neutrinos Probably Have Mass - Part II

07/09/2011 10:42 PM

"You're misunderstanding what your reading regarding CPT symmetry."

No, I'm not. The concept is simple. Your first link clearly said that antimatter has time reversed. It's the implications that can be interpreted differently by anyone.

"You definitely didn't get "mirror universe" from me".

Apparently not. I could have been inspiration. Or it could have just been applying logic to the situation. In any case I'm not the first to come up with a variation to the current theory. Here, here, and here are some examples. If you can figure out what the second one says, I'd like to know. It's conclusions were as Greek as the rest of the document.

Well, now after reading this link, I may have to eat my words. The most interesting thing in it is: "gravity is one-way because it is the spatial consequence of the intrinsic motion of time." I have believed there was a connection, but never saw it in a scientific paper before.

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: Neutrinos Probably Have Mass - Part II

07/09/2011 10:56 PM

Look, if you have questions for me about this stuff, feel free to ask.

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