Previous in Forum: Should Empty Stator of a Tacho be Covered with Metal?   Next in Forum: Protection Relays Normal Settings With Time Delay Details.
Close
Close
Close
16 comments
Rating: Comments: Nested
Associate

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 49

Star Delta Star Converter for Press Machines

09/25/2011 6:30 AM

Dear All,

i recently heard about a Star Delta Star Converter, which has a sensor and is installed with the star delta starter.Its function is that it continuously senses the load and if the load falls below 40% of the rated it will run the motor in the star mode (thus save energy) and if above , it runs the motor in the normal delta mode....

My question is -

1. How much is it successfull on the Press machines installed in the plant.

2. On what basis can we decide if this converster would be beneficial on the press motor or not

3. What is a thyristor based Star Delta Star converter

4. Kindly provied me with a link or a case study , if someone has installed it on the same application

Waiting for your reply.

Thanking you,

Regards,

Rooney

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".
Power-User
India - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Asia/India
Posts: 365
Good Answers: 1
#1

Re: Star Delta Star Converter for Press Machines

09/25/2011 7:21 AM

I suspect there will be much maintenance cost than energy savings.Try to know more about VFD.

Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Resting under the Major Oak
Posts: 4347
Good Answers: 181
#2

Re: Star Delta Star Converter for Press Machines

09/25/2011 7:51 AM

Use the site search at the top right of the screen, this subject has been covered before.

As I recall there would be no power saving, just a lot more things to go wrong.

__________________
The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated.
Register to Reply
3
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4665
Good Answers: 804
#3

Re: Star Delta Star Converter for Press Machines

09/25/2011 11:30 AM

Sounds like you need a lesson in REAL motor energy issues.

An AC induction motor draws energy in proportion to the applied load, meaning it only draws as much energy from the source as is necessary to do the work it is designed to do. So right there it is INHERENTLY "energy saving" without doing anything. This fact is the main thing that is exploited by people trying to sell useless or marginal "energy saving" schemes for them. They try to take advantage that most people perceive that a motor is using maximum energy all the time. It just is not true. So right now, with no "energy saver" scheme, when your press is running at 40% load, the motor is ALREADY drawing 40% of the energy it was at full load.

With one very small exception; motor losses. Of the energy that the motor consumes from the line, not all of it is converted to useful work. Some of that energy is lost n MAKING the motor work in the first place. So when you read a motor's efficiency value, that is what this refers to. If the motor says that it is 90% efficient (as many new high efficiency motors are now), then that means that at full load, 10% of the energy it consumes never makes it to the load. These losses can be further broken down into two rough categories and then again into 4 more refined categories. The two rough categories are fixed losses and variable losses. The fixed losses are those that remain constant without regard to load, and the variable losses themselves vary with motor load.

Starting with the variable losses, these are resistance (I2R losses in the conductors) and stray load losses (flux related losses in the stator due to minor manufacturing defects). Of these, because loading affects current, the I2R losses themselves are already load dependent and therefore lower current means lower I2R losses in the copper. I2R losses represent roughly 65% of the total losses in a motor, so right there you again ALREADY have "energy savings" even among the losses just from lower loading on the motor. The stray load losses are only controllable in the motor manufacturing process, but represent a small percentage of the total, roughly 7-10%, and nothing can be done about them after the fact.

The fixed losses are Iron losses (the energy used to magnetize the core and the eddy current losses in the laminations), friction and windage (the cooling fan and bearings). There is really not much that can be done after the fact to further reduce the friction and windage losses, but they too only a small fraction of the total losses (windage and friction together represent roughly 10% of the total). So the so-called "iron losses" representing roughly from 15 to 20% of the total losses, are the only thing that can be affected from the outside.

The iron losses are related to the applied voltage, so if you decrease the voltage, you can decrease these losses. But the relationship is not linear, because not ALL of the iron losses will vary with voltage. Running a motor in Star that is designed to run in Delta, will change the power configuration to effectively reduce the voltage across the windings to 58% of normal. So consequently, the iron losses can never be reduced to anything less than 58% of the 20% of the total losses, which themselves are already a small percent of the total energy. Extrapolate that out to see what it gets you, using a motor that is even an inefficient one at 85% efficiency. So you have a motor that already has only 15% losses, then of those, only 20% can be affected, so that's 3% of the total, and of those, only 58% maximum can be affected by reducing the voltage, so you are down to 1.74% reduction in the energy use. But remember the first statement, the energy use is ALREADY at 40% because your load is at 40%. So your NET energy savings, as a percent of full power rating of the motor, are 40% of 1.74%, or 0.7%. That means if you have a 100kW motor, you are going to save 7kW by running it in Star.

Not insignificant you say? Well, the problem is the risk / reward ratio. When you run a motor in Star, as said you reduce the voltage to 58% of design. Since torque is related to the square of the applied voltage, you now have 33% of peak torque capability! So from the outset, your 40% load reduction is already a myth, most likely based on an outdated assumption that all motors are over sized by 20%, something that machine designers stopped doing 20 years ago. So your 100kW motor is effectively now a 33kW motor and if your load is 40kW, or even 35kW, then you are going to OVERLOAD the motor. So keep that in mind, you really cannot use the Star connection safely unless you have a load reduction of 67% or greater (33% load, not 40%). That then also means that your savings is not as much either: you are only going to realize 0.574% of savings at the risk of overloading your motor, PLUS that 0.574% savings is ONLY going to happen during the time periods that the machine in running at 33% capacity. If that is only a fraction of the time, make sure you factor that fraction into the fractions of fractions of fractions that already exist. THEN look at the fact that if the machine is running at 33% capacity, that means that the revenue it generates is ALREADY lower than it used to be, so your energy cost PU of production is now actually going to go BACK UP, regardless of the savings.

Lastly, add to that the fact that you have added 3X more components to the system to affect this savings; more contactors to wear out and maintain, electronics that must be kept cool, control circuits that can go awry, and you have probably decreased your MTBF (Mean Time Between Failures) 4 fold. So for example that means if you had a failure of one sort or another once every 4 years, you can now expect a failure of some sort once every year.

Factor the cost of the added down time risk and that 0.574% of energy savings for a fraction of the operating time doesn't look so good.

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Member

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 9
#12
In reply to #3

Re: Star Delta Star Converter for Press Machines

09/26/2011 9:00 AM

I love this forum and learn alot. I mean no disrespect. You fellows amaze and inspire me to learn more, but my math says 0.7% of 100kw is 0.7kw not 7kw. Just letting you know I'm paying attention. Charlie

Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4665
Good Answers: 804
#14
In reply to #12

Re: Star Delta Star Converter for Press Machines

09/26/2011 4:41 PM

"...but my math says 0.7% of 100kw is 0.7kw not 7kw. Just letting you know I'm paying attention. Charlie"

LOL, good catch.

I frequently suffer from DDD: Decimal Dysfunction Disorder

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Register to Reply
Participant

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 4
#15
In reply to #3

Re: Star Delta Star Converter for Press Machines

09/26/2011 7:15 PM

Very thorough post. Excellent job.

Register to Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 21017
Good Answers: 795
#4

Re: Star Delta Star Converter for Press Machines

09/25/2011 5:01 PM

It's too bad the general population doesn't know enough to see through such claims.

Even worse, scammers and "true believers" will argue about it.

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4665
Good Answers: 804
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Star Delta Star Converter for Press Machines

09/25/2011 10:45 PM

Yes, I've been running into these types at trade shows recently. I feel compelled to bust their scams, especially when I see a crowd gathering around them. But the few times I've attempted that, they revert to a quasi-religious attack on me as a defense and start calling me something akin to a heretic. It's just not worth it to keep on with them and after making a main point about letting the buyer beware, I just move on.

Like the saying goes, never mud wrestle with a pig. You only get dirty and the pig likes it...

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Register to Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 21017
Good Answers: 795
#6

Re: Star Delta Star Converter for Press Machines

09/25/2011 11:48 PM

Didn't you ask this same question on 6/29/2011?

And also 10/9/2009?

Must be a steep learning curve....

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster #1
#7
In reply to #6

Re: Star Delta Star Converter for Press Machines

09/26/2011 1:09 AM

"If at first you don't succeed...try, try again."

--Anonymous Pester #1

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: sometimes Wales,UK.. was Libya, now Oman!
Posts: 1715
Good Answers: 117
#8

Re: Star Delta Star Converter for Press Machines

09/26/2011 2:42 AM

besides our OP..is there such a thing as a "Star Delta Star" convertor.. or am I being a bit thick here? It's a new one on me!

__________________
The square root of nothing is what you make it!
Register to Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 21017
Good Answers: 795
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Star Delta Star Converter for Press Machines

09/26/2011 3:14 AM

Other than from the OP (3 times), I haven't heard of such an animal. Even if it existed, it should consist only of a current sensor to send the starter back to star. And then it might oscillate frequently between star and delta, burning up the motor all the faster. But then, some people never learn.

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: sometimes Wales,UK.. was Libya, now Oman!
Posts: 1715
Good Answers: 117
#10
In reply to #9

Re: Star Delta Star Converter for Press Machines

09/26/2011 3:51 AM

Many thanks..... I was thinking I missed that class in tech school, or dementia had finally kicked in ...

For me a Star Delta starter is just that, which in the case of the OP and his press, just the thing to start it, as we all know.

To revert BACK to "Star", once the press flywheel is running at speed, to me sounds ludicrous......WHY??

As you said, it could oscillate between to modes, and FUBAR the motor.

The OP, to me, doesn't have the technical qualifications to understand the function of a S/D starter, does not know, (in his example), how a press works, and certainly does not understand how a motor works.

What next... a VFD on a A/C compressor?

__________________
The square root of nothing is what you make it!
Register to Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 21017
Good Answers: 795
#11
In reply to #10

Re: Star Delta Star Converter for Press Machines

09/26/2011 4:22 AM

In some circumstances, a VFD can work fine on an A/C or refrigeration compressor. There may be a lower rpm limitation to ensure the oil pump remains adequate, or alternatively a separate oil pump motor.

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: sometimes Wales,UK.. was Libya, now Oman!
Posts: 1715
Good Answers: 117
#13
In reply to #11

Re: Star Delta Star Converter for Press Machines

09/26/2011 9:18 AM

again..learnt something! Never seen a VFD on a A/C unit commercial or domestic, having studied A/C - refrigeration years ago, it was not an option, as the whole point was to compress the gas, take the heat out of it, condense it and feed the liquid back into the evaporator asap, especially in the larger commercial walk-in coolers/fridges.

how technology advances.. wish i had some!!

__________________
The square root of nothing is what you make it!
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4665
Good Answers: 804
#16
In reply to #9

Re: Star Delta Star Converter for Press Machines

09/26/2011 8:34 PM

Tornado,

This is actually something that is unfortunately somewhat common in other countires, especially emerging countries where there is a lot of "catching up" to do in terms of general educatiuon about common issues regarding electicity distribution and use. I have seen this mentioned several times in this and other international forums, but never from anyone in the US.

I did see an extreme version of this used on an old German centrifuge separator once a long time ago, used as a 4 speed controller; essentially 2 Y-Delta starters on a dual voltage motor. It was originally built in the '50s, long before VFDs were practical. I found it in a meat packing plant because I was installing soft starters elsewhere and kept having blown SCRs in the middle of the night. I put a recorder on and saw horrendous spikes at the same general time in the wee hours of the morning. So I checked with the night foreman and discovered this machine being used after the last shift to separate fats from the cleaning water. Every time they changed speeds, the Y-toDelta or Delta-to-Y transition send out spikes on the plant grid that were killing computer power supplies, lighting balasts and in my case, popping SCRs and Diodes right and left, but nobody knew why. I got them to replace that crap with a VFD and all the problems went away.

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 16 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Poster (1); brich (3); chalifouxcharlie (1); hithuanand (1); JRaef (4); Kombat_Technician (1); TonyS (1); Tornado (4)

Previous in Forum: Should Empty Stator of a Tacho be Covered with Metal?   Next in Forum: Protection Relays Normal Settings With Time Delay Details.

Advertisement