A Distraction from the Real Issues?

http://cr4.globalspec.com/blogentry/484

Hydrogen is an energy CARRIER, like electricity.

Hydrogen for cars is a red herring. A silly idea. It makes no sense. Mr Slack is right.

Well I don't know about that, look at the Hindenburg, that was a Airship that took off like a rocket using Hydrogen. The only draw back was of course the re-sale value.

I've been waiting for over 30 years for hydrogen-fueled vehicles. Had a college professor working on using water as a lubricant in a hydrogen internal combustion engine. It is believed that sufficient quantities of H2 can be generated by very high temp nuclear reactors. It would be a much more sensible solution than ethanol!

...It is believed that sufficient quantities of H2 can be generated by very high temp nuclear reactors...

Quite. It can also be generated by a wide range of other primary energy inputs.

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HYDROGEN IS AN ENERGY CARRIER, LIKE ELECTRICITY. IT IS A SECONDARY ENERGY SOURCE AS IT DOES NOT OCCUR IN THE NATURAL ENVIRONMENT ON THIS PLANET OTHER THAN IN A REACTED FORM, LIKE IN H₂O - WATER.

</RANT>

PWS, Your rant is something I've been hearing for 25+years. OK, I appreciate that hydrogen is an energy carrier like electricity. But, so what? What is the underlying truth in your statement that should give me pause to pursue the use of hydrogen generation and hydrogen powered devices? Or is there some other grander point you are trying to make?

Is there nothing to be gained by developing more efficient photovoltaic cells? Is there no benefit to using that electricity to generate hydrogen that can be stored for use in a fuel cell or similar device during the night or to meet high demand periods throughout the course of the day?

There were many folks, and I am told MANY at IBM, who thought the personal computer would never have much utility because too much of the memory requirements would be taken by the operating system and/or processing ability would never match what could be done by a mainframe system. Well, the argument has merit and, in many ways, still does, but there is clearly great value derived from personal computers, from distributed computing and from the connectivity that makes this forum possible. Is there not a similar impetus for us to pursue a large array of small-scale power sources (many off-grid initially) that can start to give us options at the community level rather than on diminishing resources controlled by government authority and/or vast corporations whose goals may not necessarily align with my own or whose actions (or lack thereof) can create uncertainty and economic duress?

Respectfully,

Matt

The thing is that hydrogen is the easiest technology to use as a replacement for oil-based primary fuels as far as road transportation is concerned; it can be largely dropped into the existing distribution infrastructure and used in the majority of light-end combustion engines with relatively little modification. In that respect it might be seen as the next step onward from biofuel substitution, as, in addition to infernal combustion engines, it can also be used in a fuel-cell-electric vehicle. It will always compete with other forms of energy storage.

There are other ways to go. Electricity is largely accepted as a good secondary fuel for rail transportation, though the conversion of the infrastructure to enable it to be used has been the subject of major economic considerations and, in the case of France in particular, high-level political ones; "Doc, wait. You mean this sucker is nuclear?" (Michael_J._Fox's character Marty Mc Fly - 'Back to the Future') is quite an appropriate remark to apply to the French TGV, for example. As an extreme possibility, one could make road vehicles behave a bit like a slot car on main routes, picking up energy from an underground distribution system and storing it ready for use off the slot.

There is little point in using oil products to make hydrogen for road use, as they are both combustion-based; the economics of generation and distribution will bode against it. New generation technologies, particularly those based on long-term renewables, will encourage hydrogen generation, storage and use as a substitute for the oil products currently consumed, with the generation techniques being largely CO₂-neutral. Whatever the link between CO₂ and warming there seems to be substantial political will developing to move away from energy technologies that release atmospheric CO_2, from the Kyoto protocol at one end, to the United States' president's recent declaration that his country is "addicted to oil" at the other. As part of a 'cold turkey', hydrogen has a role to play somewhere in the middle of biofuels, batteries, hybrids and reduction of demand and expectations.

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Healthy disagreement, allowing conflicting concepts to stand alongside each other for evaluation while respecting the views and feelings of each proponent, is an important part of free speech, and something that seems to be embraced and encouraged within CR4.

I have to agree with millmatt that hydrogen used to power things and put out little to no pollutants is far and away a better means of going than our current means of energy usage that in some respects is little more than the wood fires our cave dwelling relatives 100,000 years ago used!!

I have a friend who has a solar powered house a feeds and large amount of surplus electricity back into the grid? Why is it a bad idea to put a hydrogen generator, compressor a storage facility in his shed so he can tap into it as required. Wouldn't it make sense to generate the hydrogen at the filling point to avoid the dangers associated with transport and transfer.

It would be both dangerous and expensive. Hydrogen is not easily stored and requires special cryostat-ic facilities. It is explosive in air and leaks away very easily. No authority is going to allow any one the right to install this equipment in a back garden shed!

Dam, I'll ring Honda and let them know.