Methane Fuel Cells

I believe the process is called Hydrodesulfurization. I don't think there are any methane fuel cells, however you can use methane as a feedstock which is used to produce hydrogen which can be used in a number of different types of fuel cells...Ballard comes to mind...

http://www.ballard.com/

http://www.directindustry.com/prod/ballard/fuel-cell-electric-generators-22779-481254.html

Hydrodesulfurization is a complicated process! I will contact a chemical engineer to see if a more agressive ionization, sonar, and/or high pressure homogization process might shatter the heavier CH4 and H2S molecules into their constituents, in the presence of one of the fuel cell electrodes with the O2 electode and oxygen on the other side. Maybe maximum oxyidation is available, all the way down to H2O, CO2, and SO2! Maybe the well could absorb some of the excess heat, down deep. Thank you for your suggestions.

You would be money ahead if you just went with a common industrial natural gas powered gen set assuming you are needing that much power for co gen or a dedicated electrical power source. Fuel cells may be efficient but they only put out DC power which then has to be converted into AC to be usable for most everything and that conversion process gets expensive real fast.

A number of well site around here uses smaller 75 - 150 KW trailer mounted ones to power the electric pumps and control systems where rural electrical power is not available or cost effective for the site.

Some even use massive antique looking 1 cylinder Atlas, Waukesha, or similar natural gas engines to directly drive the well pumping systems.

Thank you. I am switching my interest in alternate energy from solar over to fuel cells primarily because of their efficiency and the abundance of natural gas from the 1000s of cheap stripper wells. I am surprised about how little work has been done with fuel sources other than hydrogen. I suspect one major problem is trying to get clean hydrogen. I am interested in a "Cave Man" cell that can handle cheaper fuels. Thank you for your comments and interest.

I am not sure what efficiency you are referring to?

From what I have been able to find a typical hydrogen fuel cell runs at around 40 - 60% efficiency. Given the cost and complexity of fuel cells for practical and realistic power generation the end result is going to be about as efficient or possibly even less so than a typical natural gas burning generator but still far greater in over all cost.

A typical internal combustion engine type generator in the 1 MW capacity has a efficiency around 30 - 40% and a turbine unit is in the 50 - 60% range. Where as a fuel cell based power system of that size will still have an end power efficiency that is nearly identical but substantially higher construction cost and operating costs involved.

What exactly do you need a 1 MW capable system for?

If its for electrical power generation requiring typical 50 or 60 Hz single or three phase output fuel cell tech will never be the cheaper or more practical one to run. Especially if pre cleaning and processing is required of the fuel source.

What about Bloom Boxes?

Hydrogen fuel cells can be very efficient. Other types of cells that degrade methanol, or methane etc, are less efficient.

H2S poisons the catalysts used in many cells, thus it must be removed

H2S poisons the catalysts used in many cells, thus it must be removed

A ZnCl2 scrubber solution should take care of the H2S. Heat the ZnS to oxidize the S, react the ZnO with the HCl formed in the scrubber and go round again.

there is no such thing as caveman fuel cells. Fuel cells have thermo efficencies equal to or lower than a gas engine drive.

You can use simple things like sulfatreat to remove small quanities of H2S.

I don't fully understand the following 2007 chart, but it makes me think that there are many ways to measure effucencies. When I combine the fuelcell-favorable ones with the hope of new developments on non-platinum hydrogen electrodes that may be used with methane, and that the required 1st methane ionization voltages are not increasing above 14.5 volts, then I feel justified in nursing my obsession of making cheap-enough electricity from stripper wells.

Thank you for the suggestion of "sulfatreat!" I found that technical grade ZnCL2 cost only $1.25/pound in one-ton lots. Let's hope that the H2S % level is manageable.

As for a Caveman fuel cell, I can invision ionizing methane and all of its associated gases on one side of an electrolyte with pure oxygen on the other side to try to oxidize them before they recombine. The price on O2 delivered is under $10,000 per truck load. The idea is to continually sacrifice the electrolyte and trash.

I have no idea how that pencils out, but I have experience with the 2nd ionization levels for Argon (27.76 volts) in the lab, using home made equipment.

Thank you for discussing my half-baked ideas and obsessions.

Ron

A further UK 2010 estimate is the Mott MacDonald study released by DECC in June 2010 : ^[17]

[edit] Analysis from different sources

Price of oil per barrel (bbl) at which energy sources are competitive.

• Right end of bar is viability without subsidy.
• Left end of bar requires regulation or government subsidies.
• Wider bars indicate uncertainty.

Source: Financial Times (edit)

A draft report of LECs used by the California Energy Commission is available.^[18] From this report, the price per MWh for a municipal energy source is shown here:

US dollars per megawatt hour (2007)

Note that the above figures incorporate tax breaks for the various forms of power plants. Subsidies range from 0% (for Coal) to 14% (for nuclear) to over 100% (for solar).

The methane fuel cells need pure 100% methane Stripper wells gas is less than 50% methane. It'll cost more to remove everything but the methane than the gas will support. Either gather the stripper gas and process it for the propane and heaviers and then generate electricity with a genset burning the methane and ethane (some C3+ and you'll cut the capital down by 75%.

Next, just where will the electricity go? If you have stripper wells out in the middle of nowhere, the cost of a power line is more than a simple pipeline taking the gas out.

If you seriously have stripper gas that is not being used tell me and I'll get it to market without all the crap of a fuel cell.

I don't have methane yet, I still need to get the cap number, etc. It is an interesting proposal. How much gas do I need and in what form? What is the current price and is it headed up or down? I hope to have 4 wells that have been capped for about 10 years.

What do you mean, "everything but the methane than the gas will support."

Ron

gas from stripper oil wells contain 15% ethane 8% propane and 15% butanes and gasolines. There is also nitrogen, sometimes O2 and CO2.

There are CH4 fuel cells, for example: http://www.fuelcellenergy.com/

Thank you Stargan! I am incouraged by the R&D and production in the fuel cell arena. Now I need is to learn more about "scrubbing" methane, the cells don't do well with hydrogen sulfide, and my sources are 420,000 "stripper" wells!

You still have not yet said what you plan to do with the DC electrical power that the fuel cells will be producing.

Conversion to end use application and process is just as much a part of the whole cost and efficiency analysis as is just the fuel cell design and function.

TCM,

I am fairly well checked out on the DC from the fuel cells, due to my experience with solar cells/inverters/transformers/long distribution systmes, etc. As of last night, I am developing and interest in using the DC and surplus water in a remote Wyoming desert hydroponic application, followed by a land/cabin sale of 3 square-miles of grazing land, with 4 wells and mineral rights. I think this rugged area is beautiful. My son will soon have experience on a Fracking Team to help me gain access through the welded caps on the well heads. We also have a plan to desulfinate down in the hole and leave the zinc sulfides down there. Nothing but pure DC and fresh water will come out. Wish me luck! I can taste the tomatoes already.

Thanks for writing,

Ron

That's a cool sounding project Ron.

Luck? You don't need it mate. Just needs doing and sounds like you know what you are doing.

Enjoy!

Thank you. I am taking one step or wait at a time. The realtor can't seem to find the locations of the wells and their documentation! The owner is dead!

I am still scratching my head over the whole water and electricity thing?

So are you using the fuel cells to make the water to water the tomatoes or to pump water from some location for watering large tracts of land?

Here are some links to what and how a one megawatt fuel cell based power plant looks like and operates. End electrical efficiency is around 43 - 47% to the grid at 800 KW's with an up front purchase and install cost of around $5.8 million dollars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZEiQ8-vf1Q

http://www.environmentalleader.com/2007/02/26/csun-installs-1-megawatt-fuel-cell-power-plant/

http://dodfuelcell.cecer.army.mil/climate/reports/AK_PostOfficeReport.pdf

Thats an awfully expensive way to pump water considering a common industrial natural gas burning irrigation pump system that far exceeds the pumping capacity that a 800Kw electric system could do costs less than 1/20th of that price.

If you are just looking to burn up your money to boast about how green you are well thats your business but from an engineering perspective its a horribly expensive and highly impractical way to do a simple process of moving water. Even worse if you are thinking you are going to use the condensate water from the fuel cell to water your garden.

Thats just my thoughts based on present info given.

TCM,

You mention some very interesting and important factors, thank you.

Let me try to give you my perspective. I have access to about 3 square miles of beautiful, remote, inexpensive 400-cow grazing land, cabin and stream with 4 stripper gas wells. If I can do something right, I may be able to make it liveable and marketable. I have a back ground and interest in youth summer camping, farming, animal husbandry, and education; and we have 34 grand children that love ATVs.

As a youth, I lived with an uncle who powered his home with a Model-T engine running on natual gas from a stripper well for about 20 years. Now, I am excited about what fuel cells can do, and believe that they will soon do it cheaper. By the time I get my ducks in a row, I may be able to afford the new fuel cells.

By the way, I need a fair estimate on the quantity of condensate and excess heat from a MegaWatt cell.

Thank you for writing and for your suggestions, please come to visit us, with your family, in Wyoming.

I wouldn't hold my breath on the price of fuel cells coming down

the working bits require precious metals, which aren't going down in price

if you want to chase pie in the sky, a multi fueled sterling would also be pretty nifty

cost it out with turbines or piston engined generators & find ways to use the heat

there are probably regulatory restrictions as to in the ground scrubbing

water scrubbing is probably the most likely technology for your situation

Garth,

About a week ago, I read of an inexpensive non-platinum familky hydrogen electrode that was 70 times faster! Have you heard if it? Don't you think that will affect the fuel cell industry and prices?

Thank you for writing, and please be our guests in Wyoming.

Ron

Garth,

As for "inground scrubbing," it would save the cost of removal and land-filling of ZnS. I don't have a price on cheap zinc chloride, but it can't be significant. I don't know how much H2S I need to deal with, but a little goes a long way.

Ron

Relating to the scrubbing processes an internal combustion engine or gas turbine will not have issues with the H2S unless it is in extremely high concentrations. Sulfur is or at least was an integral part of fuel for many decades.

As for scrubbing the H2S out in the well I have strong suspicions that once the scrubbing process has ran for a while you will end up with a solid plug of useless gunk in your well effectively ruining it.

In regards to the water byproduct volume I think that the amount of natural gas that gets used to make a megawatt worth of heat energy probably wont yield more than a few tens of gallons of water at best.

The other thing is if you are producing a nearly a megawatt worth of electrical energy what do you plan to do with it exactly? Grid tie and co gen resale will never pay for the system as shown in the one link I gave earlier. At 6.5+ cents a KWH operating costs plus the 5+ million dollar investment for the unit you would have to sell electrical power at 40 - 50 cents a KWH, about 10x the typical rates, for the at best 40,000 running hour life expectancy of the system as was also mentioned in the links I gave earlier just to break even.

These are just the most obvious concerns I see with running the system. If you don't have a justifiable use for the excess heat and can not sell the electrical power for less than bulk market value let alone fair market end user prices this becomes nothing more than an outrageously expensive way to make two basically free commodities you already have access to namely water and natural gas based heat.

TCM,

I really don't know the H2S level yet, but I know that it doesn't take much to poison the CH4 for fuel cells. So scrubbing is probably a given.

As for using a combustion engine, I know that the CH4 quanity is too low for the oil companies to consider commercially useful, so I may need to ration it out, using fuel cells. I hope that the gas enters the hole far enough above the bottom to provide a long-term zinc sulfide storage. I am anxious to see the well's documentation.

It sounds as if the condensate is insignificant; thanks for that info, I won't plan on it. I will have a stream, I just don't know where yet.

As for selling to the grid, I am afraid that it may be about 5 miles away. So, I need to find a vauable use for the electricity, water, and heat at home. I mentioned tomatoes only because that is my favorite, but my wife is a master gardener and will surely have a better idea. Thank you for the 40,000-hour life expectancy estimate.

TCM, I really appreciate your input; this may never be more than a "dream", but I have done something like this before with a "stump farm" in Oregon, and I enjoyed it.

Ron

So you cant sell power back and the well has low quality gas with a likely low flow rate on top of it.

I am at a total loss as to what possible reason having a fuel cell system attached to it could possibly serve other than to burn up vast amounts of money real fast in order to produce a near zero value end result. I would say zero end result but the scrap man always pays a little for whatever he collects in the end.

If the intention is to pump water to irrigate land natural gas burning engine driven pumps would be the cheapest most cost effective and reliable way to do it. No scrubbing, easily sized to the well output capacity and zero maintenance when not being used.

For what its worth the fuel energy input to run a 40% efficient fuel cell system that puts out around one megawatt of electrical energy would equate to an engine, or group of engines, that put out about 1100 - 1300 shaft horsepower.

Maybe the extended family will run out to 1000 homes?

maybe it's the underground house Mormon

from some months ago

I read the underground house story, and I think my wife would be happier above ground.

If we had 1000 homes out in remote Wyoming, we would probably have to call it a town! I only have 4 children, 28 grand children, and 6 great grand children to support my "Ranch" idea. So maybe 10 homes at the most and a summer camping bunk house.

So why do you want 100 times more power than you will ever need?

If I need less than 100 times "what I will ever use." There are familar ways to deal with that challenge. 1 megawatt is just easy to say, for starters.

Until I see the well documents; until I hear that there is a new hydrogen or methane electrode, I have no idea of what is available, so I have no idea of how big to dream. If the price of the fuel cells and/or the cost of gas recovery is high and/or the use value is low, then I can be miserly. However, if some of those facts are oposite then I can pick and choose from several interesting life styles. I don't think that I am compelled to immediately give up based on current information. This property was priced at $2.5 million, and may someday be worth it to somebody other than me.

Well all I can really say to that is; throwing big numbers about is useless in terms of getting realistic engineering advice.

But I do understand now why you seem deaf to practical input.

I presume 'was' also means 'now $2,500.'

34.5,

I agree throwing unfounded numbers around is useless for gaining realistic engineering advice, but unfounded is all I have for the present. However, I have gained some good parameters of limits and have learned about gas scrubbing, possible new electrode materials, that some realtors work harder than others, and the fact that dreams and "fuzzy logics" is harder for some people than for others.

I am sorry that I appeared deaf to practical input, I really was listening, and I appreciate your input. I will be more attenative when I can feed you more solid information, such as available water, budget capital, and gas supply. But for now all I can do is to enjoy dreaming.

Yes, my buying agent is pricing the land at about $2,500, it is rough country! My 1/4 section stump-farm project was $50 down, in 1968, times are changing.

Merry Christmas to you and yours.

Ron

I was actually referring to tcmtech's input - which is basically everything I would have said had he not - and you comprehensively ignored every word.

But as you mentioned, you don't know the capacity, or apparently the location of the wells; have you considered they may just be a realtor playing on your propensity for dreaming.

So long as the realtor is jumping and Ron hasn't paid any money yet then let Ron have a dream.

If Ron has millions to play with then all the power to him.

There's nothing wrong with exploring the borders of the realm of possibilities.

Wal,

Thank you for your defense!

What does Geru after your name refer to?

Ron

guru after my name means the same thing as active contributor after your's

see member titles

It is GREAT idea to read the instructions! "Member titles"

Thank you,

Ron

It is GREAT idea to read the instructions! "Member titles"

Thank you,

Ron

department of redundancy department?

Guru is Sanskrit for teacher.

It seems that I have been given this title by the ether's puppet masters.

Who knows what a salesman may have in mind? Actually, he had contacted me to purchase a rare Toyota diesel engine that I had sold 6 months ago, and only mentioned, in passing, this ranch listing from years ago,that he had given up. So I tried to contact the brokerage only to find that it still had not been sold. I need to find out if he now becomes my buyer's agent, if that is legal; it sounds like inside trading to me. I can only explore the possibilities due to so many uncertanies. The land is still pictured on the national website, but I can't find a selling agent! I would hate to have to become a politician:)

TCM,

Thank you for the rough estimates of "1100 - 1300 shaft horsepower." As soon as I find these wells and get their documantation, that kind of info is going to be very useful. I will surely keep you updated and invited to watch and to visit our progress.

I mentioned using hydroponics to use some of the energy to try to break-even as I try to make the land marketable, let me describe my previous project on the "Oregon stump farm. In 1968, I was teaching in Pomona, California and dreaming of escaping the freeway grid-lock system, when I found a 1/4 section of worthless mountain side that had been logged-off during WWII. The reforested land was about 20-25 foot tall Fir and had an old 3-story log home. I contracted with some loggers to build a 30' x 40' bunk house during the winter, and took my outdoor science club to Oregon during Christmas and spring break to burn slash and to dress up the "ranch." During the spring quarter I acquired about 20 campers through Sun Set magazine, and used the advanced camper fees and deposits to buy beds, equipment and a "tote-goat" franchise. That next summer, my club returned to help start the camp which was pretty rough for the first year. My wife is a dietician who prepred a fantastic menu out of everything etible! The campers extended their stay and wrote home for more friends from around the world. At the end of the summer, many camper stayed for school, passed our invitation by word-of mouth, and I got a teaching job in Oregon. The success story continued for 7 years, until we wore out and decided to sell to a Nudist Camp for cash, and move 18 miles into town. My point is that a worthless stump farm had gained in value, while I raised my family of 4 in what they consider a paradise.

I may not now have what it takes to hang shoes on a string of horses, but I know know who can, and I have a long list of contacts for everything else.

This economy is so sluggish that I feel I need to do something for my family of which each member would like to try to do somehting on their own, with my help. They all have B.S., M.S., and PhDs but feel they could be having more fun, as they had while growing up on a stump farm with outstanding worldwide kids.

I am so anxious to find those wells!

Ron

I just found the article about a new hydrogen cell electode material ! ! !

Researchers at UC Berkeley, as well Swiss scientists at EPFL, are developing molybdenum as a substitute for platinum electrodes. At 70 times cheaper than platinum, molybdenum-oxo is rising as an alternative that can perform in either dirty water or salt water. "Our catalyst does not require organic additives, and can operate in neutral water, even if it is dirty, and can operate in sea water, the most abundant source of hydrogen on earth and a natural electrolyte. These qualities make our catalyst ideal for renewable energy and sustainable chemistry," stated Hemamala Karunadasa, one of the co-developers of the technology at UC Berkeley.

http://molyinvestingnews.com/3813-molybdenum-as-a-clean-energy-option.html

I didn't see a word about fuelcells

the article was about Hydrogen from sunlight & dirty water

is there lots of sunshine in wyoming?

giving up on methane already?

I am starting to get the impression that he belongs to a family of 'really smart' dumb people with a fixation on owning a 1 megawatt fuel cell system despite no real justifiable use for it or potently reliable or capable fuel source either.

He cant sell power back with any remote chance of breaking even nore has any practical justification in using it to power irrigation pumps and its gross overkill to use for off grid power for just a few homes at best just due to realistic installation cost and service practicalities. It wont produce enough usable water to do any good for anything and as far as a heat source its completely impractical as well.

Sorry but I don't see it as anything less than a fixation and a means to waist large amounts of money that could be used far more effectively to do good in a vast number of other areas both productively and socially.

Unless he comes up with a rational and realistic use to justify it I am about done with this thread. When it comes to pumping water making electricity or making heat with natural gas as the fuel source there are other ways to do it all and for tiny fractions of the up front and overall operating costs involved.

there are not 420,000 stripper wells with the gas not already being sold into the market

Thank you, my source was severa years old, and I had expected it to rise. Where can I find an up-to-date count?

Ron

which state? In most states it is illegal to vent gas from stripper wells.

I believe the wells are capped in Wyoming, possibly Utah. Do you have some prices for me?

Ron

between Enterpise, encana, anadarko and DCP, all those areas that had wells drilled in the 50's and 60's but there was no market now have a market. The issue wasn't so much H2S as it was CO2. In southern Utah. the paradox basin had a new gas gathering system installed and there are <100 wells waiting to be connected to it.

https://secure.oilandgasinvestor.com/newsletters/subland.php?PubCode=GPR&TrackCode=5

you can subscibe to this paper and see all the progress

you could call a fuel cell maker and ask them to custom make a 1 mega watt fuel cell for your project.