TV Special: The China Question

I'll try to watch it. But, I'm going to say ahead of time, that anyone that still thinks that China is a question, is a day late, and about $15,000,000,000,000 short.

Yeah............................that's trillion.

The 1,339,724,852 800# gorillas have cars now, and new apartments and are listening to MP-3 players while choking on the fumes of the coal fired generators that feed their new habits and keep the lights on.

What is there to watch?

That's not very nice.

If we're borrowing money from gorillas to finance our future..............what does that make us?

We also are selling them the coal.

Sometimes the mirror is the ugliest thing you want to see. Reality sucks.

Happy New Year buddy!!!!!!

_{Glad to see that have no plans of not being an a$$hole. Me either.}

We're $luts, we need to admit that, right off. Walmart has awakened a "sleeping giant" to borrow a phrase from the Japanese. Drunk with wealth, China will consume us all if we're not careful.

While I desperately want to yell at the top of my keyboard about such idiocy as "which is the highest mountain in india?" Or, "I need info on lock rotor amps" and other stupid retarded useless insulting inane inquiries, I'm holding back, some.

I'd offer some retort about the fact that next year can't possibly be worse than 2011, but I'm afraid the gods might prove me wrong.

Have a good holiday and don't remind me that we're already beholden to them for our existence.

Best of the new year to you and your family.

Karamat

Not that he isn't capable of being ...let's say direct

^{1,339,724,852 .............800# gorillas have cars now,}

800 pound gorilla is an expression for things not discussed but obvious

'The 800 pound gorilla in the room' is the expression

Oh, I get it now.

I'm terrible at understanding inferences.

I'm also a little slow.

Lyn will vouch for it.

I should probably just unplug my computer until Monday.......................but I won't.

No apologies

I had to look three times

I will say, that you have kind of made my point better than I have.

Here we are, the great Europeans and Americans. We have enjoyed prosperity beyond imagination. The rest of the world aspires to be just like us..............................................and guess what? You can't.

Why?

Because our latest invention is global warming.

Sorry............................we already used up all of the good times that fossil fuel provides. It's too late for you. Get your energy from the sun, wind and water.

Why?

Because we say so..........................and WE have decided that it's time to save the planet.

The last president to tackle debt during a recession was Hoover - that went well.

And parallels between national debt and personal debt are poor at best, just not the same beasts.

Rather than offer either 'sides' opinions, lets go straight to non-political capitalists here

And do remember we are rehashing with China discussions we had over productivity and debt etc with Japan during the 1980's.

I've got a step-daughter like this.here

She's now doing 3-5 for armed robbery and my wife and I will spend the rest of our lives raising her three children.

I'd like different model, please. One that may include a little hope for the future.

I'm all about hope for the future

I am sorry about your daughter, but the link didn't go anywhere revealing to me

You can actually liken U.S. government debt to the dead beat that never pays his credit cards or other bills and simply rolls over debt with consolidation loans or uses one credit card to pay for another.

Somehow, I don't find that comforting. I hate debt, so I guess I'm biased. I don't buy anything unless I have the money for it..................except my house.

The way I was raised, for someone to get themselves swallowed up in debt, was a sign of bad decisions and poor judgement. Now, both the government, and individuals, think nothing of piling up huge amounts of debt. For individuals, there no longer seems to be any stigma attached to runaway credit card debt, bankruptcy, foreclosure, etc. The attitude is...................So what? I'll just start over.

The thought of having the US debt forgiven because we can't afford to pay it back, also makes me want to puke. I don't think that's an option we should exercise, even if we could. That would be a dark day, and the repercussions would last for decades. No longer could we expect to be respected.

Not disagreeing with anything you say.

Said personal debt and government debt are not the same things.

One is generally abhorent, the other something you manage as part of larger economic equation.

My point was (forgive me as this may sound political but in fact transcends parties) the entire debt red herring has been brought out to ensure the financial institutions of the US are held harmless and sound while minimizing the assistance to American people.

And these decisions are being made by the same folks who apparently had no problem with spending a trillion a year on war.

Can you imagine what a trillion would do to stimulate the economy?

Not quite a trillion a year:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0933935.html

Can you imagine what a trillion would do to stimulate the economy?

Yes

Not much.

10 % tax all land sales homes and commercial land and buildings all plains trains and autos, any vehicle that uses a motor and an axel to pay for social security medicare and medicade which will be able to pay for its self even baby boomers.

15 % corporate tax on net6 proffit

20% percent flat tax on all purchases paper prod food gas alcohol textiles all other consumer goods no tax on pharmicuticals or medical expences paid at point of purchase to the county county keeps 4% sends 7% to state and 9% to feds.

5% service tax on all services for preservation of all state and federal parks

2% tax on all sales stocks bonds and futures for education which will used for arts sciences it does take english and math to articulate arts and science will help the silly azz way we fund our futre generation rather then just the lottery gamble and who benefits from the better educated populis corporations.

the 10% tax pays for what cost us the most in the budget right now and should maintain it as long as we mandate congres can only use the funds for what they were intended for when they were collected in the event of a war all taxes woulds be raised 1% across the board to pay for the war may be raised by 1% in first year but no more then 3% for the term of the war.

this repeals our current county state and federal taxes and replaces our tax code to were we have controls set on were are taxes go, slow congress down a little.

congress senate and judiciary need term limits then maybe we can have the land of oportunity back be able to compete just saying

I was neither suggesting that debt doesn't matter, nor that we are at the crux of huge change as we go from selling off our resources to some other economy; only that picking a time of great unemployment to decide to cut government spending is not the most prudent choice in the short term.

1, 339,724 852 ///800# gorillas could purchase some american goods its not a bad pipeline equal trade

Problem is, we don't manufacture anything they need, or can't produce more cheaply themselves.

Except apparently, BMWs.

Wanna bet? Wiki says:

Production by country

Harkening back to the other thread on German auto workers, American manufacturing's heyday was immediately post-war. But note that no other major manufacturing countries were in any shape to compete.

Germany and Japan had to rise through the ranks of heavy competition to the positions they are in, and we never saw the same levels of investment in American manufacturing.

I remember back in the 1980s as we gnashed our teeth over Japanese auto manufacturing, lots of Detroit was still using the same presses and methods they used to gear up for WWII.

Things have changed, but I suspect those industries mindset haven't changed much. Constant reinvestment in the long run pays off better than outsourcing, which pays dividends today but creates it's own problems down the road.

The US is still a giant in manufacturing, but outsourcing is a form of brain-drain as you export your latest methods overseas along with your expertise.

This has resulted in a number of "US" manufacturers who employ few Americans, pay little in taxes, but want to command loyalty from consumers.

Our problem is the maximum profit today, regardless of the consequences, mentality.

The lawyers and accountants who run things today don't care about what happens tomorrow.

It's all about "me", never about "we".

because we cant compete with our tax code

maybe yes

maybe no

billionaires don't need tax breaks, which is just another diversion like the hype over the deficit

we need every entity who accesses the US consumer market to pay their share of the considerable expense involved in the upkeep of the infrastructure that makes it all possible

we don't need more or less government

we need better government

money is not free speech

Well I would certainly agree with the fact that our tax code is a labyrinth of years of the group in power trying to take advantage of the groups out.

It could use a complete overhaul, but I'm also not dumb enough to think I can slap a set of percentages on there and call quits.

Thats why i call it starts.

And AFRICA:

Forget the "political correctness" and say the truth.

You get a herd together from the moment you drop down from your mom's back, to marry your 10 x wifes to pay "labola".

Your tribe murder, rape and steal from the other tribes or vice versa.

You murder, rape and steal from the people that is the backbone of the economy and keeps you alive while the government say there is no problem.

BP, SHELL and China and USA and Europe rip the continent apart for wealth and leave it inhabitable afterwards and ....more bancrupt than ever with only a few top officials that suddenly became bilionaires.

Nothing actually gets built after colonialism - rather more broken down and more hunger, more sickness - but everything is colonialism fault - and those responsible must keep up paying for the expensive live styles of the selected few that are in power.

The rich nations must give, give, give and give - while Africa waste, waste, waste = corruption.

Yeah = part of the USA total bancrupt state is giving hand-out the world over while other is sitting back and relax, knowing the US will fly in at massive cost, food, water, medicine, doctors, agriculture supplies (that will be standing under trees within one year) etc on the US tax payer cost.

My question - why do you not see Russia, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, the rich oil states of the Mid East not supplying the "humanitarian" support ???????

BILLION, BILLIONS of hard earned honest tax payers money go to absolute waste to a world and areas that does not give a tit for the USA - they call it "humanitarian support"

Stop doiing that and you can start paying back the interest at least on those TRILLIONS that the national bank of the USA (China) actually do not want back.

To owe means actually that you are a slave of the lender and you can bend his arm as it suits you. Get out of it.

Yeah = part of the USA total bancrupt state is giving hand-out the world over while other is sitting back and relax, knowing the US will fly in at massive cost, food, water, medicine, doctors, agriculture supplies (that will be standing under trees within one year) etc on the US tax payer cost.

Remember the phrase, "you can't buy friendship". It's the same thing with the U.S. We are trying to buy the friendship of other countries. They are smart enough to accept it, but not without a catch. We give in the name of humanitarianism, but we all know there is a catch somewhere. There is a payback; maybe not immediately, but sometime in the future. I always like to quote folk lore and use phrases like, "no free lunch", "what goes around, comes around", guns to plowshares", etc. It may seem a simplistic view, but it serves to sum up in a nutshell the overall situation without going into specifics. (KISS)

Some of us aren't likely to be able view that program on The China question.

Can someone provide a quick summary of its main point so that I can throw 2 bob in as well please?

It doesn't show on my programming list. Replaced with paid programming?

It showed up on my CNBCW channel, what that may mean where you are I don't know.

It also is a channel that doesn't allow me to record it

Trevor made some good points related to huge economic inertia we are dealing with. It takes years to see the effects of economic policies; sometimes decades, but always longer than an election cycle.

China;

In the myopic and short term vision used by western capitalists China appears to be some giant rising to its full stance. In reality it is more like the US during its glory days, where labor, resource, and capital were in easy supply. And, like the US, the nature of power is defining their direction in the development of a hugely expensive and non-productive Military Industrial Complex(M.I.C.). By non-productive I do not use the common metrics of ROI at the corporate level, which often looks no further forward than the next fiscal quarter, but the strategic economic value of activities involved; the effects of investment on the economic infrastructure of a society, not the ROI for a corporation. That is, the strategic ROI for the overall economic system in terms of sustainability.

An example would be looking at the ROI on the 1 Billion Dollar plus investment per unit for the new air refueling tankers versus an alternative investment in, let us say, transportation infrastructure. Although that 1 Billion dollar investment in one airplane may bring a huge ROI for the corporation, if provides little sustained ROI for the society as a whole. And because of the nature of conflict where economics envelops all components of political conflict, makes us weaker - not stronger. China is just now embarking upon that unsustainable path. They too; will face that same economic dynamic; but with a much larger population to control.

In another comparison; let us estimate US spending on Health Care as now approaching 20 percent of GDP; yet the productive life span of its workers is now decreasing. Although our hearts beat longer; the length of our producing lives is now decreasing; even as our retirement ages go up. This is in the US where we began addressing some of the environmental causes of increasing health care costs decades ago. Unless China addresses the environmental issues it faces, it will face even larger numbers on the expense side of the ledger. In order to avoid those long term debilitating expenses; significant capital will be diverted away from purely competitive economic investment.

In the US, most of our increases in labor productivity over the past two decades has come by increasing the working hours during the producing life span of our workers. I believe it is reasonable to expect that working hours has some limits before the toll on health and worker push back no longer allows for increased labor productivity. I don't know where that limit is; but I am confident that China is much closer to that limit than the western societies.

If we can somehow avoid being led into a military conflict by those who lead the western or the rapidly developing Chinese M.I.C, now in alliance with the other members of the SCO, we may, in the time-frames described by Trevor, survive with some semblance of civil social order and lifestyle expected of a modern industrial nation. If we are unable to avoid that conflict then I am confident that the US, or China, will not be making significant contribution to the coming world culture.

Oh --I almost forgot; saying debt, more specifically the capital outflows represented by interest export doesn't matter; is like saying heat and smoke do not significantly contribute to fire damage. It's a no brainer. It may not matter to those who control the central banks since they are pretty much one and the same, but to the economic systems that sustain that capital outflow it matters. In education, in transportation, in industrial capacity, in demand for goods and services, in economic growth ---- it matters.

Gavilan

Well, I'll say one thing... all you have to do is put the word China in the thread title and it generates posts.

for Wal ("Some of us aren't likely to be able view that program on The China question.

Can someone provide a quick summary of its main point so that I can throw 2 bob in as well please?)

It's main point, which has been made in other places and formats, is "America, we have a problem." As I posted, I was affected by the presentation -- not so much that it contained "new" information. I taped it on Sunday, trying to eliminate commercials. That's always dicey to judge. I usually end up with 1-2, 2-4 sec. blips in between segments because of a trigger happy remote controller. I wish that CNBC (CNBW, as pointed out by edignan, would offer it for viewing on their website. Given that it is a commercial product, I understand why they don't. But there are quite a few documentaries that were "released" as products, which can be view on the Web some place. I'm sure it will get repeated again, it just will probably be months down the road and none of us will remember to look for it.

I just took a quick look to see if it is available for free viewing. Several links advertise that it is, including a YouTube link. One link I tried crashed Firefox. YouTube removed whatever had been posted as Part 1. But the advertising trailer is on YouTube. The trailer doesn't do justice to the full documentary. But it might whet your appetite to see it. It will seem like standard fare. But it was well done. There is also a Facebook site, for it. I was trying to read some of the posts there, but after a time, the screen grayed out and I was prompted to login. Not a Facebooker, so I left.

Any way, it was nice of you all to post about whatever came to you mind when China was mentioned.

I'll assume no one got to see it, but I will check back here.