Portable Tool Search: Hand Held Reciprocating Saw

How about one of these:

1. big bad saw- or is it
   
2. Double Cut Saw as fantastic as the dual saw as seen on TVwww.dual-double-saw.info/
3. Dual Saw Reviews | Omni Dual Saw Ratings & Reviews ...infomercialreviews.tv/dual-saw-reviews/
   
4. Ridgid Dual Blade Saw | Tool Snob - ToolSnob.com

Sorry I should have made bold the words reciprocating saw. The tool I heard about is a dual blade reciprocating saw.

Thanks for your reply but a circular blade type of saw will not reach deep under the tiles when trying to cut in from the edge. The art is 5 ft across and mounted in cement on a cement column. The goal is to delicately take as much of the tiles together intact, preferably in sheets by getting into the setting bed; through it along the same plane as the cement wall.

They look like good tools but for another kind of project

You were clear enough.

Have you considered some type of diamond cable saw? Might be hard to do over a 5 foot cut, but two guys with pull handles might do it.

Yes and a lot of water! Problem is that the entire plane of the art work is not perfectly flat and there are dips and rises not noticeable enough to affect enjoyment of the art work but the surface variations would be a problem when cutting behind it, going through the thin setting bed (3/16" to 3/8" over a 5 ft span). Runs the risk of cutting out some of the art work and cutting the back of the tiles as well.

Thanks for your good idea. I really would like to do some version of this. Preferably to take a portion of the substrate beneath the setting bed.

Sears carries such a Gizmo with counter-rotating saw blades, but I cannot remember what they call it at this time. In fact I have it downstairs in the workshop, and it does do a superb of cutting through structural steel and sheet metal like a hot butter slicing through butter. You can use metal cutting blades, wood cutting blades, and I think ceramic cutting blades on it. Forget the piece of junk that you've seen on the TV ads hawked by whatshisname (the dead guy).

www.sears.com

Why not use a sonic-crafter or similar power tool instead because of the minimal breakage requirements?

Looking for dual blade reciprocating saw that will give much greater (deeper) access between the tile and the cement wall surface when cutting in from the side edges towards the center. Not a circular saw because the tool body of circular saw is too close to the blade and that body will not fit into the area that needs to be cut. Note: the mosaic tiles cannot be easily moved away from the wall surface (to make room for the tool body) while making the cut because they will crack very easily when the surface is flexed or twisted.

The sonic crafter Idea sounds promising in priciple, I do not know anything about this type of tool. Where can I find info about it?

What is the substrate?

Is it hanging on a wall or on a 5 x 5 free section?

If the substrate is wood or plywood, you may want to consider an electric planer and slowly moving in from behind. Are the tiles glued or grouted? The more info the better.

It's set in a cement bed on a cement column. So it is very strong, hard and the cement setting bed is very thin.

There is a tool that vibrates, has multiple blades. It will work through your grout without cutting the tiles, or your fingers.

You are going to cut between the tiles, how are you expecting to release the tiles from the grout under them? If there is no grout between the tiles, how can you get any blade between them? Mosaic usually doesn't have grout lines.

If you can start at an edge, this vibrating tool will slip under each tile and pop it off, the tool will pulverize the mortar safely without cutting the glass. The vibrations will loosen the glass.

I'm not understanding how he can use a tool like that on a 5ft x 5ft piece without disturbing the tiles.

I'm assuming that he wants the entire 5 x 5 mosaic to be left in tact while only removing what's behind it.

Plan to start from the side, top and bottom edges and work cutting through the setting bed behind the mosaic tiles and in front of the cement column that the entire piece is fixed to. Prior to cutting an adhesive with cloth or paper imbeded in it will be applied to the face, this will fix the tiles in position so that there will not be a huge jigsaw puzzle to assemble afterwards.

Thanks for your reply,

Under (or behind) the mosaic tiles is a cement base very hard setting bed which will have to be sawed through. This is a verticle surface.

When you say: "There is a tool that vibrates, has multiple blades. It will work through your grout without cutting the tiles, or your fingers."

Are you thinking of the tool by Fein? Which is a great tool but will not get deep (in from the side edges along the plane of the tiles) in through the setting bed.

As far as the vibration aspect: covering the entire work with an adhesive and fiber cloth will hold the individual pieces of tile in place as they are freed from the setting material.

Still you can only go so far in with any tool before you start to bend the tiles too far out and create pressure and stress's between them that will cause cracks etc. So the best one can do is to release small segments of tile, then cut them free from the remaining adjacent areas that you cant yet reach behind with your cutting tool's blade. Carefully remove the free segment and set it aside and then repeat the cutting/ removal process.

Is the setting grout very hard?

Good points and they present the site problems:

The substrate behind the mosaic tile is a setting bed is of varied thickness from only 3/16" to as much as 3/8" in places made of a cement mortar. There is nothing between this setting bed substrate and the solid cement surface holding the entire artwork up. (there is no wire or any other type of armature).

Behind the substrate is a poured reinforced structural concrete column (10" thick). I would love to be able to slice an inch or so off the column but permission has been denied.

Dismantling and re-assembly seems to be the route to heaven in this case! So an adhesive coating with a fibrous membrane imbedded in it will give some strength and keep order to the complex tile arrangements.

The technique of disassembly will require patient gentle cutting, releasing sections of the art at a time that will be dealt with latter. This is why I'm looking for cutting tool information. Reciprocating saws have a nice long manageable blade. So do long masonry drill bits. I think it will be a combination of these sort of techniques.

If you take it apart in pieces, unless you are highly skilled in this art form, it is quite likely you will destroy the piece...If it's worth preserving, it's worth preserving in it's original form....If it's not, then get a hammer and chisel and be done with it...

The only way to do this that I can think of would be to cut in across the top and bottom with a side grinder with a diamond saw blade and use a diamond string saw to cut behind the mosaic from top to bottom...

http://www.wfmeyers.com/product/diamond.html

I totally agree and this was my preferred approach.

First concept was basically to cut a slice off the concrete column by using whats called a wire saw with a diamond cable with a hydraulic system to turn the pulverized cement into a slurry, remove it and conserve the diamonds.

However we aren't permitted to touch the column.

As far as I know the smallest diameter diamond wire is 8mm (~ less than 1/4"). From what is visible of it around the perimeter the thickness of the setting bed varies between 3/16" and 3/8" at these points. Also dips and valleys become evident that add to the problems that these variations in thickness of the setting bed present. That topography kind of issue will make the variations in the waviness of the depth of the mosaic tile layer thicker than the diameter of the diamond wire. Like in viewing the finished surface from the side (or like placing a straight edge across the surface). So bringing this type of diamond string blade through the setting mortar is uncomfortably tight. It would surely cut into the tiles from behind in many places. Probably dislodging some from the adhesive stabilizing layer applied to the face of the mosaic art. I guess I trying to describe something like what an medical MRI looks like when it scans a segment of a body: taking only an absolutely straight section through a curved complex object. It takes a bit of visualization to understand the resulting image. Certainly don't want to do that to a piece of art.

The wire saw is mechanically operated, so it cuts fast and accurate but in a pretty tight straight plane.

I don't think doing it by hand is an option.

If only the cut could be deeper into the concrete!

Well you could make a fiberglass mold of the surface of the piece, take reference pictures, cut along the surface of the column, place the piece face down in the mold after removal, apply mortar or grout or thinset, to the back of the piece and you should be able to maintain the integrity of the piece...I would also tape the surface of the tile while cutting...Take several pictures from all angles...

This "make a fiberglass mold of the surface" is a nice suggestion and would be useful but for my lack of experience in mold making on this scale. Also time is a limiting factor: there are five days left to complete the job. Photo's have been made for future reference in reconfiguring the pieces. First step before cutting: I understand that there is an water releasable acrylic resin paste that should be applied to the surface then a Japanese paper is set into this while curing and that may be topped with another layer of resin. This system will be stronger than tape and is removable.

Now back to cutting tools!

Lawren, the Sonicrafter that I had mentioned previously is made by Rockwell Tools. It is similar to the FEIN machine, but not as costly.

You can buy it online at:

https://www.rockwelltools.com/US/Sonicrafter-P1353.aspx?gclid=COvnzNqW0a4CFUdN4AodPDB_Cw

I have a corded one and it works like a champ! You can also buy cordless ones too, but they're costly with the lithium batteries.

Lowe's and Home Depot carry the individual blades for them, so don't get sucked into buying a huge package deal at the Rockwell website. You can find some great deals on the blades in Ebay too.

Most likely you will need either the carbide grout cutting semi-circular blades or the diamond encrusted semi-circular blades + the triangular shaped blades with either carbide or diamond encrusted. I find the diamond one, even though they're more expensive, last much longer and do a superb job cutting through the hard grout along tiles and behind tiles (like a hot blade in butter!).

I've been using my Sonicrafter during our huge floor tile removal and replacement project here at the house + removal and replacement of fragile granite tile countertops in the kitchen. I've had it a year now and have had no problems whatsoever. Only thing I have to complain about it is that it does get hot after a while and needs cooling down as it gets too hot to handle + the vibration kills your palms and fingers after a tad. that's the only problems I've had. It does as advertised, and even gets into very tight locations.

You should check it out on the various U-Tube videos out there in cyberspace....

I swear by this machine and would give away my first born before giving up the machine! LOL

BTW, FEIN blades, Dremel blades, and others do fit the Sonicrafter with a special adapter which is fairly cheap (if you're in a bind and can't locate the Rockwell blades)!!!!!!

Where are you located? If close, I could bring mine over and we'd have a fun time ripping the place apart! (as long as you supply the Tequila....errrr Margaritas, that is! LOL). I'm in upstate New York (Hudson Valley)...... if you're close chill that Tequila!!!!!

Thanks I've got the Fein and it is probably the best made tool that I own for power, balance, durability, speed, engineering and by the way it barely heats up with continuous use. It is worth every dime it cost! But it won't fit into the depth of space required by this type of project. It is too bulky. That is unless they make a very thin and 30" long adaptor that could carry the diamond cutting surface deep in from the edge and still transmit the power of the oscillation!

Fein make oscillating cutting tools. This one is more of a vibration cutter then a sawzall.

http://www.feinus.com/en_us/oscillating/multimaster/fein-multimaster-start-plus-0294450/

Dremel has come out with one that's simular

You may want to consider using a sheet of thin sheet metal glued to the mosaic, using a very thin layer of high temp silicone as an adhesive.

From there, my thought is to cycle the entire piece through hot and cold cycles. The expansion and contraction of the concrete will be greater than that of the glass and should eventually loosen the setting up, allowing you to remove the entire mosaic in one piece.

Of course it would take some experimentation on a separate and expendable piece to determine the temperatures and times required to get the job done and not crack or discolor the glass.

Thank you for the thoughts. This is a really intriguing idea to me. Yet it seems awfully perilous, considering the crystal nature of glass and the presence of air bubbles in it. Would the cycling of hot and cold be rapid or over extended periods allowing for slow thaw? I know you said trial and error first on small sample.

What are the coefficients of expansion and contraction for each material: glass and cement? The tile is hand made venetian colored glass and it has air bubbles. The cement is a fine smooth grade with very little air as far as cement goes. It was mixed in 1957 long before additives were in common use.

Are you suggesting the use of something like freon gas to provide the cooling or some device / setup of a mini environment? Possibly working size manageable sections of the work?

Also could you elaborate on how to create a controllable heat in these conditions?

I have never seen such a tool. This certainly doesn't meant that it doesn't exist, but I have seen a lot of tools. I think most of us who have responded here have spent some time around tools, and it seems nobody has a lock on this thing.

Please tell us, these two reciprocal-action blades, side-by-side in plane with one another: Both cut on the upstroke, or one cuts upstroke/one cuts downstroke?

To be quite candid, I cannot quite see how either of these cutting actions would provide better control than a skilled sabersaw operator and the proper blade selection in the process you have described for us.

Is there more to this, or am I missing something?

Thanks for your focus on my question!

I have only heard about the tools existence, and have not seen it yet. So I probably know as much as or less than you do about it. I don't even know if it is a manufactured tool or a unique one.

As for possible working characteristics and advantages:

I can only compose conjecture and theoretical ideas. Keeping in mind the delicate nature of this project and the materials in it.So:

• Seems to me that two parallel and adjacent blades would be able to dislodge material with less applied force than for a single blade. Less force possibly equals less vibration? As well as greater ease of handling?
  

• More conjecture: A wider effective kerf area between the two blades could dislodge material (especially in a partly friable one like cement or mortar) in the area between them more easily (forgive my ignorance of tool, cutting and materials terminologies).

• Further conjecture: two parallel and adjacent reciprocating blades would be able to reach deeper into the work more easily with less resistance; like tunneling with one or fingers as opposed to two. Perhaps the result is a more gently made deep cut thus perhaps sparing adjacent material that is of a different fracture characteristic.
• I think the main advantage would not be so much about greater control of the tool but more about control of the subject materials, decreasing the effects on the surrounding material adjacent to the cutting. Perhaps the reverse is the case?

Thanks again!

That description sounds like the electric knife my mum uses to cut meat. Just thinking about scaling that up to do lawren's job, my first concern would be vibration.

As to cutting direction, from what I remember of the knife, both blades cut on both strokes...certainly the teeth look to be sharp on both sides. I never liked it and always reached for a carving knife.

If you've got a pile of joints to cut - big party - they work really great and never need resharpening, they keep themselves sharp.......

Also you can slice as thick or thin as you want.....easy peasy.....

Not wonderful on birds, but who is?

What about water blasting? If you use a non water based adhesive to position the tile pieces from the top, you may be able to water blast from the side sufficiently to remove the artwork intact.

Thanks Bob,

I spoke with a fellow at Accustream this afternoon. I gave him more details of the project and had a nice discussion. He said he would get back to me if he came across a local contractor who uses water blasting technology. He also said the cut could be as thin as 1/10,000" !! But typical applications in the field on sites are for industrial projects, like freeing frozen pipes from one another in a shaft. By the way I brought up the question of weather there would be a volume of slurry water with this technique. Answer- yes and there are abrasive put into the water potentiating the cutting action of the stream. So as in diamond wire sawing there is a waste water disposal issue to be dealt with: the slurry water! I wonder what the fees for such an operation could be! Yet to hear back from the representative.

Similar to Kamarat's suggestion, use water soluble glue to adhere metal sheets to the mosaic. Then epoxy (ultrasonic?) speakers to the sheets, with a framework to keep it all together. Experiment with different frequencies until the grout lets go of the wall, or the mosaic. Have a framework on the setup so it doesn't fall and break. Once loose from the wall, apply a new back to the mosaic and use water to release the front assembly.

A bit involved, but it would remove the mosaic intact.

I could say use regular speakers, you need to find the harmonic frequency of the grout. It may be sub-sonic for all I know. A good signal generator (amp) from a rock band might do. Woofers, tweeters, give the wall some Bruce Springsteen, he can get anything loose!

This is starting to sound like fun.

Is that what US forces were doing in Baghdad? Removing mosaic tiles with amped up Metalica?

Nice one Mike!

I am wondering if air bubbles present in the hand blown glass and the materials crystal structure may be very suceptable to vibrational range frequencies. Remember the old Opera Soprano and the glass breaking trick!

Perhaps low frequency would work? Perhaps sped up viseral recordings of political orators and the roars of their crowds? Heck maybe a recording of a very dull speaker could just put the tiles too sleep and they would off!

Noooooo!!!

You use soft sappy sounds that you know drive anyone nuts...like those stupid whale 'songs' for instance.

After 2 hrs non-stop play at sufficient volume the mosaic will simply climb off the column and re-locate to a position of your choice.

Works for unwanted visitors as well!

The natural frequency of glass is high - which is why sopranos rather than tenors break glasses. If you sped up a recording, its frequency content would get higher, not lower. You would need to slow down the recording to lower the frequency content.

Slowed down whale song might do the job...however a signal generator would give you greater control of the frequency you're using. There is information "out there" on the natural frequency of concrete...you need to avoid that if the column is to remain intact.

Is the mosaic material acid proof?(Glass should be). If so, and the base is lime-based cement,then muriatic acid will soften and dissolve the base substrate.

Try the chemical approach if mechanical methods fail.

Dremel makes a multi-tool that might be suitable.It uses an oscillating blade with tile and masonry cutting blades available.

http://www.dremel.com/en-us/Tools/Pages/ToolDetail.aspx?pid=Multi-Max

Good luck,

The glass is acid proof- Yes, but the strong base lime will surely etch the glass and permanently change the appearance of the artwork it it is allowed to sit on the tile surface.

Any suggestions as to how to physically saturate a vertical masonry setting bed between glass and cement.

Could chemical reactions be slow like days or longer? A speedy release is required!

Back to the cutting approach!

They cut steel with water jets. Any chance that would work? Probably would still have the same problems with the slightly curvy line.

Does the entire piece have to remain intact, or could it be taken off in strips? If strips, perhaps saw in whatever the saw depth will do, and remove that strip. Repeat.

They make handles to hold hacksaw blades sticking out from the handle--I have several. However, hacksaw blades wouldn't hold up. Abrasive blades?? Also no way to get 5 feet.

Something like a band saw, but with a wire--but that probably is the wire saw mentioned.

Yes to water jets But yes also with the curvy surface and also there is the problem of disposing a slurry water, you don't want to throw slurry water down a drain or even into a sewer.

Yes looks like segmental cutting to make strips is required.

Yes there is even an offset blade holder for a reciprocating saw made. Alas the longest reciprocating masonry saw blade I've heard of is only 9".

Yes it is called a diamond wire saw, But:

1. It requires a lot of water and this results with a lot of slurry water to dispose of (slurry loaded with lime)
2. Not allowed to cut into the concrete base material at all. Then dealing with structural issues of the building.

Getting way too complicated--Acknowledge that you will not be able to remove the entire mosaic in a single section--Remove the grout , holding the piece in shear, with a Fein or whatever--(Tons of stuff on the market) BTW--What is the width and depth of the grout lines? If large, diamond blade , 3 1/2 portable saw the best--Then take your Fein, or whatever, use a flex blade, and remove each tile separately , and re-use--Take a picture before dismantling , with a tape measure in the photo, of all sides, for reference--Find a compitabale backing piece (1/2 inch Duro rock or similar), and re thinset and re-grout-- Simple, and non-destructive-- Mac

Thanks C-Mac

Oh yes it is! Abandoned the one piece removal with the prohibition put on cutting the cement column (building structure issues).

So cutting the work free is only option.

Grout lines are tight 1/16" sometimes less some places more. This poses difficulty also. Will want to choose which grout lines to clean out if possible because there are too many of them and there is no symmetrical pattern of grout lines.

Your other suggestions are on the mark for reconstruction options.

someone on this site may know of an acid that would loosen the mural without damaging the glass.

good luck

I'm having difficulty conceiving of how one can effectively saturate a vertical cement surface layer that is a burried under an impervious glass layer of tile. So that the duration of the saturation could be present long enough in a process where the chemical reaction would be much shorter than days to complete.

You are too focused on the reciprocating saw as a solution, narrowing your options. Do you have a job generating interest in these saws? A number of good techniques have been described, you seem to dismiss them on scanty info. This reads like it could be a made-up teaser to wile away the time (of the readers). I f you only have five days, you need to quantify your information, like how flat is the wall, how thin is the grout, how expensive is the wall repair if you screw up, what do you get out of this compared to what your cost. The more information you provide, the more useful will be answers you get. I suggest you get cracking (but not the tiles).

Thanks Anonymous poster #2,

I have dismissed not one technique, they are all valuable. There will be no "wall" repair required since there is no wall but a structural column which (is 10" deep by the way and a member of a support system carrying 22 floors above) will not be touched.

I suggest that you read my reply to Nigh who posted after yours.

Thanks again

What country are you in? I.e. what voltage tool do you need?

You asked for a tool to do minimal damage why are you asking for this?

Start a new thread asking for ideas to do the job. Such as a visit to a monumental mason in your area to see how they cut large slabs of stone. I'm sure there will be a plethora of ideas, some from the renowned KrisDel company of Sea Arfor ( postcode unknown ).

Jim

"Monumental Mason" caused my mind to think of that dam in Egypt (Aswer High??) that was going to flood some humongous statues which were cut loose from the cliffs and moved. Of course not directly applicable, but are there any useful ideas? Like how did they cut hundreds (I think) feet to get them loose?

Looks like your between a rock and a hard place. Do a google search for LASER cutting of concrete

I've linked what I get from the UK: looks quite promising.

Make an impression of the mosaic. Peel it off. Assign a number to each color of glass and write the corresponding numbers in the impressions left in the mould. Buy some new glass pieces and make a new one. You may need permission from the artist if he/she is still alive.

I like this idea. Ignore the curvyness of the back side of the mosaic. If you slice a bit off it, or even off the column, it will be no big deal because such a small amount. (I know artists are pretty particular, but they put it there/caused the problem to start with!)

Also you are pretty hung up over disposal of the resulting slurry. Chances are that will be a small part of the total costs when you consider the costs of the cutting machine, labor time, protection of the mosaic face, moving it, etc, etc.

Water jet's stream expands in diameter after it leaves the nozzle, so the stream will be too big in the middle.

Bonding a cover sheet over the glass has problems too. Now you've got two bond lines to de-bond.

Water soluble glues are a pain to dissolve because you can only dissolve the edge of the bond line.

Can't see thermal cycling working at all.

Acids are out. They'll etch the glass.

Sound waves are too risky. You don't know what will break first.

You're back to the hand held wire with a guy on each end. I'd not try to use a machine for this as it gives you no "feel".

If it was easy, anybody could do it.

Please take pictures when you get started.

As we say here in NYC: BINGO! AND THANK YOU!

YOU ARE THE SINGLE RESPONDER TO DIRECTLY ANSWER MY SEARCH QUERRY.

I don't know how well built this tool by DeWalt is or even it's effectiveness. Hopefully there is some offset blade attachment that can be used with it to bring the cutting action parallel to and along the plane of the layer to be cut through.

I thought I was being quite specific. It seems to have generated more interest into the methods to be used in this project than in the specific tool question. And I really appreciate that interest, personally and intellectually. Even spiritually, because my mom was the artist. Coming from a position of respect I didn't originally have in mind to burden the community with the complexities of such a delicate and tricky project. I really welcome the attention shown by you all to this aspect. The overall project is so full of details and constraints which affect the choice of action. That is why I kept the question to addressing the tool search.

Nevertheless every response has been very helpful and I am grateful to be among creative thinkers. Many of the responses are taking me to resources and concepts that I find valuable. The person who mentioned the tool to me in the first place is a transplanted European here in the USA. This shows how the tool market varies around the globe. None of us here in the USA seem to be familiar with this commercially produced product from a global corporation; myself included. The theoretical responses, technical questions and points raised are perhaps more valuable because they are educational! Great.

Someone, "Anonymous poster #2" implied that I might even have a personal financial interest in wasting the communities time for financial gain. Then stung with "This reads like it could be a made-up teaser to wile away the time (of the readers)". My friend we all have better things to do with our time than what you imply. Well there's at least one person like this in every group and yes they can be what this responder frets about, but really I guess the name is chosen appropriately.

I didn't take the subject in the direction the discussion went, although I have encouraged and continue to learn from it. I have respectfully and gratefully tried to answer all responses, thanks for your time everyone.

It is customary to "rate" the answer of the person who hits the nail on the head with a GA, as I have done. Click on the rate button at the bottom of the screen in post #42.

Your's is an interesting problem and I'm glad that you have found the saw you needed.

It's the nature of most here to analyze the problem and approach it the way they would instead of just blindly answering the question. It goes with the territory.

Interesting threads tend to take on a life of their own, as this one has done.

It also changes things now that we know that you have a very personal interest in the art.

Good luck with the project and please send us pictures.

YES - DONE!

I really appreciate the community's nature of analysis and the personal approach. THANK YOU.

My own replies to the threads just reflect the research I've been doing prior to coming to this forum. I'm not trying to knock anyone's ideas.

By the way the manufacturer simply states that an advantage of this saw is: "Two saw blades running in opposite directions so the material will not move while cutting".

Thinking through a project before getting there is usually the best path to efficiency on site. With something so full of tangents as this one it will be interesting and requires on site trial and error. Thanks for the well wishes.

So as the great Yogi Bara said, "It ain't over till it's over!"

Please make sure to document (pics and all) the project and report back to how it went. I've been following the discussion and I am intrigued... I'm sure we'd all like to see the art too

Good luck !!

Thanks lyn,

For all your input and interest. The amount of memory on my computer is giving problems in trying to download a picture of the mosaic mural. I was just trying to post a before picture of the mosaic. It has taken five minutes now and is still connecting after I selected the picture from the browse button. I will try again latter!

lawren,Thanks for the reply.

Don't worry, we'll be here whenever you get a chance send some pictures.

Good luck! I hope this doesn't turn into a shattering experience for .

When i first joined here i had problems getting pictures into my replies. It was a kind Guru who told me the trick and now i will pass it on;

before trying to post, go to your picture and right click on it and select open with > Microsoft Office Picture Manager.

Once opened you can select Picture > resize > predefined width x height > web page ( or for quicker loading but with less definition ) email. Then save it with a new name. Start your post and browse to the new, resized picture.

Good luck

Jim

"Someone, "Anonymous poster #2" implied that I might even have a personal financial interest in wasting the communities time ..."

Try to not have thin skin syndrome. It appeared to me more of an observation than an accusation. Here at CR4 we do get quite a few threads that are simply veiled commercial advertisements. I believe your quest here is genuine.

As Nigh has been identified as a "Good Answer" I vote accordingly. You can do so as well, hit the Rate button in the bottom left hand corner of his comment.

[edit] Yeah, what lyn said.

Dear Welderman,

Thank you for your comment. You've shown me that I need to go back to basics or at least proceed more throughly.

Wow I just plunked a sample of the setting bed into pure water: it seems to have become softer. It immediately changed color, becoming darker and it took no time for the water to penetrate. After a few minutes I can now easily scratch a groove into it with a spoon, just imagine how easily a saw will work! This seems to be effective I see now that I jumped to a conclusion about the composition of the setting bed material without examining the materials adequately. The sample I just dunked came from the edge of the art work and visually it appeared to be typical along the entire side edge. Hopefully it is the same in the center.

So since water can soften the setting bed it should be used in the separating process, with the assistance of some mechanical action.

This requires that the adhesive and fiber support to be applied to the face of the tile as a first step before anything else should not be water based. So what materials to use to stabilize the irregular mosaic tile arrangement? The first thing that comes to my mind is some sort of an acrylic impregnating some fibrous material, for its strength.

Then again perhaps another more rigid layer over the adhesive that fixes the individual tiles in position will be necessary. With the setting bed effectively removed the art work will have no support behind the face so it must have support from the face.

Your idea about finding a solvent for the setting bed: "...may be simple sand mortar that can be removed with salt water". Could you point me in a direction on researching this concept? When I made similar searches to "mortar solvent" I just came across a lot of ways to dissolve modern solvent based mortars.

Yes the alligator saw does not seem to be a panacea. It might be useful. I was looking at the Fein website, but tried to reach them too late in the day to speak with anyone. Their AStxe 649-1 looks more promising: long blade ~25"(I wonder where to find longer blades), 'suitable for cutting autoclaved aerated concrete'. http://www.feinus.com/en_us/sawing-and-cutting/reciprocating-saws-for-pipe/astxe-649-1-0112962/

Your idea about finding a solvent for the setting bed: "...may be simple sand mortar that can be removed with salt water". Could you point me in a direction on researching this concept? When I made similar searches to "mortar solvent" I just came across a lot of ways to dissolve modern solvent based mortars.

Try searching for "lime cement" or "lime mortar." I think I have read in firefighting literature that old brick buildings used lime mortar which tended to weaken or even "go away" over the years of rain. Not surprisingly this leads to concerns about building stability! But it could lead you in the proper direction.

If you use water to soften as you cut/ scrape/ whatever, you will probably have to continuously spray to keep the kerf ahead of the cut softened.

I'm afraid I can't help much. I can tell you that when I use de-icing materials on my stairs in the winter, the mortar between the steps turns into sand and I have to reset the stones in the spring. I suspect that if you experiment with salt water or muriatic acid, you may find a solvent that will remove the mortar and not harm the tiles.

I don't think it will cut anything really hard like concrete. They were designed to cut relatively soft building blocks, wood and suchlike....

Secondly, you cannot use it deeper than the blade length and even then even to start, you somehow need clearance on the side for the motor and mechanism, how much I cannot say exactly. But if you are not allowed to dig a big trench in the wall, I see problems.

Best of luck.

GA, Andy, that's why I recommended the vibrating tool I see advertised on TV, don't know it's name. It is sold with sanding and cutting tools. It handles like a masonry trowel, will cut below grade without the need of a trench. With the right blade, this tool should allow the mosaic to be filleted off the wall, as you mentioned.

Just like filleting a fish, stick something flexible to the mosaic and start peeling. Soft grout should give up to any piece of metal vibrating at high frequency. That's the operating method of this tool.

The double blade tool is designed to cut unclamped items without jumping all over. On this job, one blade would be against the wall, the other against the tiles. No different from a single blade as far as disturbing the tiles.

You're right Andy Germany,
I found a reciprocating saw attachment to offset the blade to the side permitting a more flush to the plane of the surface cut. There probably isn't one for the alligator. Anyway the alligator seems not to be sold in the USA.

Take a look at comment #57 from welderman. Those suggestions led me to discover my own mistake in the basic material analysis for this project: see my reply #62. It appears that the setting bed is actually water permeable and it softens up on contact.

Happily for me. Yet of course because of this new issues arise: materials to stabilize the art work and the configuration of the mosaic tiles. Handling the work now becomes more tricky perhaps because it may be possible to remove larger pieces.

I don't see any dual blade saw as a viable proposition anyway, considering the dual blade thickness, and your stated bed thickness of only 3/16" -3/8" , and also in view of the max blade length (under 20"). It seems to me you think this may be an hours' job for a power saw...(chuckle)... rather give up the ghost now.

I have not yet done a similar project, but here goes...

1. By now you surely realise you must use a mould, or lose the 'art' in the artwork. A flexible material like liquid latex can be applied by brush up to 5/16" thickness (can be reinforced with eg gauze bandage), with 1/8" sheet rubber backing bonded to that with contact adhesive (to give an overall smooth, even surface) followed by a rigid timber backing eg shutter board. You also need to frame the perimeter to contain the artwork to it's actual depth, and mount sturdy legs/ supports so that the assembly slips snugly over the artwork, such that should the work come loose it is supported without stress.

First prize, is that the latex bonds to the glass, but that is unlikely. Once the mould is firmly set, apply contact adhesive to the full area. Very, very carefully marry the mould to the artwork (at this point you will be most thankul for the legs on the mould)

Point of interest: Someone once told me that clear spirit vinegar will release/ dissolve cyanocrylate (super glue)..??

2. Using an angle grinder with a masonry cutting disc, carefully cut around behind the perimeter of the artwork to the maximum depth of the blade, thus reducing the remainder height and breadth for separation by 8".

3. #47 addresses diamond wire which you say has min diameter of 10mm. I believe you found a structured diamond cutting cable, while he found diamond coated wire, which would be the way to go. I delegate that search back to you....However, there is a rigid ceramic cutting wire (carborundum?) about 1/8 dia that fits a standard hacksaw. These are lugged at each end for that purpose, which makes them joinable. A number of these joined will provide a good two-man hand cutting wire. A number of these joined may also fit a large bow saw.

4. The cut: you have a cut of approx 4'4" square to make. If you were successful with the bow saw adaptation, present the cutting wire at an angle to each corner of the remaining cut and saw to max depth. Approx 1/3 of the cut material is now removed.

5. Now, with the mould/ frame solidly in place, use the two-man cutting wire technique and remove the rest of the material. You van try water to soften the material, but my concern would be that it will permeate the artwork as well.

All of this is a cautious, deliberate process throughout, so forget about quick fixes.

I estimate 2 days to make the mould and 1 day to make the cut.

Good luck!

Heavy duty sawzall? No problem how about a diamond chain concrete plunge cutting chain saw? http://www.icsbestway.com/en/products/index.aspx#gas ! I like this one, a track mounted wall cutting system that has several blade choices. http://www.husqvarna.com/int/construction/products/wall-sawing-promoted-systems/ May be able to cut exactly what you want with precision.

Someome who cuts doors in concerte walls may be able to help or do the job for you. Not as much fun I know but it may not hurt to ask.

Good luck, seems like an interesting project you have here.........

I believe that it was Tesla, that stated, that if he could find the right frequency, he could halve the earth--Just saying...Anything is possible , if you throw enough money or reward into it...Mac

Just a suggestion:-

Contact Fein marketing, and offer to pay them a small fee to remove the artwork, but, with the additional incentive that they can use the "event" as marketing material.

The reason i asked ( Post 44 ) what country you are in is because this saw is what you are wanting. It is advertised as a brick and concrete dual blade oscillating saw BUT it is 240v.

Further more i can't see you getting down 5' in a perfectly flat cut. All saws need a 'nut' to hold the blade on, so even the flattest one will cut at an angle. Even 0.5 Deg will be 5 1/4" at the bottom. Monumental masons were wire cutting without diamond a looooong time ago. Again i say visit your local monumental masons to see their operation and get some ideas.

Good luck

Jim

P.S. google Arbortech to see this saw in action.

Day 5.

Have you freed the art from the wall yet?

Hi Wal,

Politics:still getting all of the many Insurance requirements in order. Happily for me they have been playing a bluff regarding their 'scheduled' deadline prior to commencing full demolition. And it seems that next week I can commence. Since being bared from using a diamond wire saw, am planning to use fairly conventional tools: drills, expandable wedges, saws, hammers, blades, scaffold, protective membrane, panels and clamps.

This is a culmination of months of dickering around and I'm glad just to be moving in a direction. Even if it has been overly influenced by strong concerns that are diminutive to the cause of saving this really nice piece of modern art.

The methods to be employed will certainly require lots of reconstructive work: cracked/ split tiles, multiple pieces. I'm hoping to minimize the number of fragments to less than 8 large irregular shaped pieces.

I see that the way this CR4 web site works that it would have been appropriate to change the topic of the thread early on. I admit to not knowing how to do that without disrupting the focus at the time. Many welcome comments were not focused on the search for the saw but about the methods proposed to execute the entire project. It certainly is a delicate and unique project. I learned quite a bit by talking to members of the museum community here in NYC. While here in CR4 forum I appreciate the fertile ideas, sympathy, interest, enthusiasm and encouragement put out here. I will be posting a picture [before removal work] of the piece in a reply to the person who asked to see it.

Good luck with all that.

Is the whole building beng demolished or is this a renovation scale demolision?

Demolition? Are "they" planning to demolish the whole building? If this is the case, then with some advice from architects/builders/demolition experts, removal of part of the concrete column and some temporary propping should be possible. From their point of view, it gets you out of their hair quicker; for you, it buys you time to deal carefully with the mosaic.

If not, and from your other posts it seems not, have you considered this as a final back stop method:

Using non-water soluble (but something that can be removed with a non-abrasive cleaner) marker*, number all the pieces. Photograph in detail. Using the water softening and a small saw/cutter, take the mosiac off in smallish pieces (some may be individual), I'm thinking 8 - 10" square would be feasible.

I'm not sure if your tessalae are ½" square-ish, much larger or totally irregular. How you number could change to suit.

Have as a receiving container a box(es) filled with a layer of playdoh type material into which you can put the pieces immediately and which will hold them during transport. You can recreate the mosaic in the box as you go. You could have more than one person working on this stage - colour code the numbers in appropriate areas of the mosaic to avoid confusion.

Once home or at your studio, you can mount the pieces (as someone else described) on a portable frame so that the mosaic can be hung and moved as required (although probably you won't want to do that too frequently!)

*Most permanent markers can be removed with acetone of similar, which do not damage glass.

I'm suggesting this because it is an alternative to finding a substance that will bond to the surface of the tiles while you move them but is "easy" to remove when you want to reassemble. I suspect that during that last stage you'll end up pretty much disassembling the whole thing since you'll need to remove all the old mortar before remounting.

I hope all is going well - and I join in the chorus for before, during and after pictures!

Yup - an overgrown version of my mum's kitchen knife!

(One day I'll read all the posts before commenting....nah, that would spoil the fun!)