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Power-User

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 104
Good Answers: 5

How To Get The Correct Ground?

04/05/2012 12:46 PM

I have a remote facility powered by a generator that operates a water pumping system. The pressure output of this system is monitored at a well with a battery powered pressure transmitter which sends the transmitter information wirelessly back to the main facility PLC. THe PLC is powered with a 24VDC battery bank and has a charger system connected to keep the battery bank charged. The transmitter signal coming in is 1-5V and then converted to 4-20mA for the input to the main PLC (Momentum). The reciever board for this radio to the transmitter conversion is powered by 12VDC. This 12VDC is created bt a 24 - 12 converter. The problem found is (was) that the readings on the PLC output are 6 pounds higher than the actual readings from the transmitter. When looking at the 1-5 voltages, they convert to the actual readings so we had determined that the radio and pressure transmitter were good. What was found was that the ground on the analog input card had 23 mV on it. The battery charger is a MDS model and has different alarms and faults, one of the faults that it shows is a Neg Ground. This has been on the system since startup over 2 1/2 years ago, but it appears it may have come back to haunt us. I remember at startup we had removed all the remote devices from the buss and the fault never cleared, they were in a rush to get running and all systems were working correctly so it was swpt under the rug. The charger powers a 24 VDC battery bank as I mentioned. There are two circuits that then feed 24 power to the PLC. These two circuits are bussed out on terminal strips (~30 per circuit) in the PLC cabinet for the many different devices in the facility and to the multiple I/O cards on the PLC. The negative busses are next to each otherand we found one circuit when measured to earth ground was reading -26 mV and the other was +15- 18mV. I don't recall which circuit the analog input card was on initially but we did switch the card ground and the reading changed. Figuring we were on to something we set about getting the best ground situation we could. THe terminals on the grounds are Weidmuellr terminals with the screw in jumper bars in the center. We jumpered a #12 wire across the two sets of terminals which brought the ground potential to -13mV and the difference on the pressure transmitter to the PLC reading to just under 2 pounds. This fix has worked well for the past four months but they are now seeing more flucuations. I'm getting ready to go back out to the site and wanted to get some input on what to look at more closely. I have considered grounding the negative busses to the earth ground but I was told by the engineer that had done the design that the 24 VDC is to remain isloated at all times for these control situations. Thanks

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Guru

Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 669
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#1

Re: How To Get The Correct Ground?

04/05/2012 1:19 PM

>The transmitter signal coming in is 1-5V and then converted to 4-20mA for the input to the main PLC (Momentum).

To clarify, the pressure signal is wired to an analog input on a radio transmitter. At the other end, a radio receives the wireless pressure signal, does it not?
This radio receiver then outputs an analog signal to the PLC, correct?
The analog output is 1-5Vdc?
How does 1-5Vdc get converted to 4-20mA?
How is this device powered?
From what power supply?
Is its output isolated from its input or from its the power supply?

>The reciever board for this radio to the transmitter conversion is powered by 12VDC.

Is this the radio connected to the pressure transmitter, or the receiver radio at the PLC end?

>the ground on the analog input card had 23 mV on it.

What is the ground? The (-) terminal on the analog input? A separate shield terminal?

This is a 4-20mA analog input?

> The negative busses are next to each other
What is a negative bus?

How are they 'next to each other'?

>we did switch the card ground and the reading changed.
How does one "switch a card ground"? From what, to what?

>and the reading changed.
Which reading?
How much change?
from what, to what?

>We jumpered a #12 wire across the two sets of terminals
The two jumpered terminals are 'grounds'. Let's call one A and the other B.

A is whose ground?

B is whose ground?

>but they are now seeing more flucuations
for example?
The issue before was an 6 psi offset (most likely a ground loop)
How do these fluctuations differ from the previous offset value?

>24 VDC is to remain isloated at all times
The 24Vdc is powering the PLC and anything connected to it. I'm not sure that's 'isolated'.

The intention of isolating the 24Vdc is to isolate the power supply from _______ ?
Is this supposed to mean the 24Vdc power supply 'floats' ?

How many other analog inputs are connected to the PLC's analog input card?

What are the URL links to the PLC's analog input card manual and spec?

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Commentator

Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 75
Good Answers: 6
#2
In reply to #1

Re: How To Get The Correct Ground?

04/05/2012 11:48 PM

" THe PLC is powered with a 24VDC battery bank and has a charger system connected to keep the battery bank charged."

Fix that, then start over. It is completely illogical, and electrically wrong, to connect a charger to a battery to a PLC.

Put a proper POWER SUPPLY on the PLC, then a backup battery.

Your horse is pushing the cart.

We dont power PLCs from something as electrically filthy as a battery charger.

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Power-User

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 104
Good Answers: 5
#3
In reply to #1

Re: How To Get The Correct Ground?

04/06/2012 2:10 PM

>The transmitter signal coming in is 1-5V and then converted to 4-20mA for the input to the main PLC (Momentum).

To clarify, the pressure signal is wired to an analog input on a radio transmitter. At the other end, a radio receives the wireless pressure signal, does it not?

>>Correct

This radio receiver then outputs an analog signal to the PLC, correct?
The analog output is 1-5Vdc?
How does 1-5Vdc get converted to 4-20mA?

>> The 1-5Vdc goes into the AI card that is programed for +/- 10, so it is not 4-20mA

How is this device powered?

>>NA

From what power supply?
Is its output isolated from its input or from its the power supply?

>The reciever board for this radio to the transmitter conversion is powered by 12VDC.

Is this the radio connected to the pressure transmitter, or the receiver radio at the PLC end?

>>The reciever radio at the PLC end is powered by this 12 Vdc

>the ground on the analog input card had 23 mV on it.

What is the ground? The (-) terminal on the analog input? A separate shield terminal?

>> This is the (-) terminal on the AI card and not a shield

This is a 4-20mA analog input?

>> I though it was 4-20mA but it is a +/- 10 Vdc input

> The negative busses are next to each other
What is a negative bus?

How are they 'next to each other'?

>> There are ~40 terminals on DIN rail, 20 are jumpered together and connected to circuit (A) negative of the 24 VDC power (battery) and the other 20 are jumpered together the same but connected to circuit (B) negative

>we did switch the card ground and the reading changed.
How does one "switch a card ground"? From what, to what?

>> The AI card has a commmon GND terminal that was terminated on the negative buss (A) and it was switched to negative buss (B)

>and the reading changed.
Which reading?
How much change?
from what, to what?

>> This caused the PLC displayed reading (that was reading ~6+ higher than the actual transmitter) to go ~+10 higher

>We jumpered a #12 wire across the two sets of terminals
The two jumpered terminals are 'grounds'. Let's call one A and the other B.

A is whose ground?

>> A is the ground for the 12 Vdc supply to the radio reciever, the PLC and several of the PLC I/O cards including the AI card in use for the pressure transmitter reading. This is also the ground termination for a few field gas detector devices.

B is whose ground?

>> B ground is for the remainder of the I/O cards and other field devices.

>but they are now seeing more flucuations
for example?
The issue before was an 6 psi offset (most likely a ground loop)
How do these fluctuations differ from the previous offset value?

>> The reading is now flucuating back to the 6 psi offset then back to around 2, where it was settled after the jumper was placed between buss (A) and (B)

>24 VDC is to remain isloated at all times
The 24Vdc is powering the PLC and anything connected to it. I'm not sure that's 'isolated'.

The intention of isolating the 24Vdc is to isolate the power supply from _______ ?
Is this supposed to mean the 24Vdc power supply 'floats' ?

>> I was told that the PLC supply was to float and stay 'isolated' from other supply (ie. power) grounds. Never got much more explanation than that.

How many other analog inputs are connected to the PLC's analog input card?

>>13, configured for 4- 20 mA

What are the URL links to the PLC's analog input card manual and spec?

>>Thank you

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