Previous in Forum: The Black Hole War   Next in Forum: Blocked Hotmail Account
Close
Close
Close
11 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Deepest Darkest Rutherford Oz
Posts: 951
Good Answers: 145

Talking About Black Holes

04/07/2012 10:50 PM

All this chat today about black holes got me wondering,

What happens when two black holes collide?

Does it create a bigger/denser singularity?

It would had to have happened surely, especially when you consider that they are "gravity sinks". There would be a tenuous gravitational attraction between them one would think? Nobody seems (or at least I haven't read anywhere) to suggest a polarity when it comes to gravity.

What if a binary star system nova'd and collapsed to produce a binary black hole (would that be possible)?

I'm just a busted arse radio mechanic so the Quantum Physics maths is a little beyond me but it's the bench racing that intrigues me.

I could of tacked this onto the other two threads but I thought it may work better on its own

__________________
There are two reasons for a man to do a thing, One that sounds good, and the real one...
Register to Reply
Pathfinder Tags: Black holes
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11119
Good Answers: 918
#1

Re: Talking about black holes...

04/08/2012 7:31 AM

Quite simply, yes it happens. It is no different than binary stars where two black holes orbit each other. Here is one link for you.

Here is another article detailing collisions.

It is thought that such collisions may give off the elusive signatures of gravity waves if we could ever catch one inaction.

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Hobbies - HAM Radio - New Member United Kingdom - Big Ben - New Member Fans of Old Computers - Altair 8800 - New Member Canada - Member - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3968
Good Answers: 120
#2

Re: Talking About Black Holes

04/08/2012 10:50 PM

Black holes are singularities, and the event horizon can be a long way from the singularity. A direct collision would probably make few visible aspects, and a higher mass black hole, since they are both not going to let anything leave. An indirect impact could leave these 2 singularities orbiting each other within their now mutual event horizon. We know they have mass - things orbit them.

The elusive gravity waves may well be created on an ongoing basis from such a pair.

I wonder if even gravity waves can escape? if light cannot?

So far all the gravity wave detectors have failed and each year they get more sensitive. Some people wonder if gravity can be a field phenomenon?

__________________
Per Ardua Ad Astra
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - Retired South Africa - Member - The Rainbow-nation Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Relativity & Cosmology Popular Science - Cosmology - The Big Picture!

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 3804
Good Answers: 69
#3
In reply to #2

Re: Talking About Black Holes

04/09/2012 1:12 AM

Binary black holes do exist, but not too many are known, I think. If they are close together, they will radiate enough gravitational waves to lose orbital energy and eventually merge. The merger will (theoretically) form just one singularity and in the process emit an enormous amount of energy in gravitational waves at a certain characteristic frequency.

Gravitational waves are theorized to be emitted outside of the event horizons of the merging BHs. In essence, the huge fluctuations in spacetime curvature (tidal gravity) in the close proximity of the merger act like an antenna (or a loudspeaker) that emits the energy as ripples in spacetime (which are different in nature to curvature fluctuations/tidal gravity).

"So far all the gravity wave detectors have failed and each year they get more sensitive. Some people wonder if gravity can be a field phenomenon?"

A detector like LIGO may be looking at the wrong frequency range, in which there were just no suitably close-by emissions. Maybe the LISA space antenna, with it's huge bandwidth and sensitivity will be capable to see some. Or, gravity theories may be wrong...

It is a fact that the binary pulsars spiraling in do so at exactly the rate that General Relativity predicts (due to gravitational wave emission). If those waves do not exist, physics will need a complete overhaul - perhaps not a bad thing.

-J

__________________
"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge." -- Kahlil Gibran
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Hobbies - HAM Radio - New Member United Kingdom - Big Ben - New Member Fans of Old Computers - Altair 8800 - New Member Canada - Member - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3968
Good Answers: 120
#4
In reply to #3

Re: Talking About Black Holes

04/09/2012 7:30 AM

well, as they get closer, tidal effects can slow them down and they will merge. As for gravity waves, does a lump flying overhead propagate a gravity wave? or is it a phenomenon emitted by a mass accelerating? In total isolation, with no entourage, black holes are not easy to see, except by occultation /distortion of the background.

The problem is the lack of understanding of the generation of gravity, except that mass has it in direct proportion to the amount of mass, so it does appear to be a continuum distortion. (marble on a rubber sheet).

Until we reach the stage where we can deal with gravity in the lab like we do with electricity and magnetism, (remember how this progressed from static electricity to wire and conduction and magnetism, Faraday, Maxwell, et al) we will remain in the dark

__________________
Per Ardua Ad Astra
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - Retired South Africa - Member - The Rainbow-nation Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Relativity & Cosmology Popular Science - Cosmology - The Big Picture!

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 3804
Good Answers: 69
#11
In reply to #4

Re: Talking About Black Holes

04/10/2012 1:08 AM

"As for gravity waves, does a lump flying overhead propagate a gravity wave? or is it a phenomenon emitted by a mass accelerating?"

Gravitational wave** generation has to do with the shape of the mass distribution changing over time in an asymmetrical way, like an iron dumbbell rotating lengthwise. I guess a lump of mass flying overhead may qualify for that, but the effect will be as tiny as for the rotating dumbbell.

-J

** Note that strictly speaking, the term 'gravity wave' is used for waves "generated in a fluid medium or at the interface between two media (e.g., the atmosphere and the ocean)". I guess your 'lump of mass' may cause some of these gravity waves as well...

__________________
"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge." -- Kahlil Gibran
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Sebastopol, California
Posts: 1205
Good Answers: 54
#5
In reply to #3

Re: Talking About Black Holes

04/09/2012 10:28 AM

Another problem with detecting the waves from a binary black hole is the velocity of the orbits. From our point of view they could be spinning faster than we can detect as gravity waves. If the frequency of rotation is as high as the frequency of gamma radiation, then they may appear to emit light waves but not appear to emit gravity waves, even though they may be doing so.
You cannot detect a wave that is shorter than your detector's resolution.

__________________
Most people are mostly good most of the time.
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - Retired South Africa - Member - The Rainbow-nation Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Relativity & Cosmology Popular Science - Cosmology - The Big Picture!

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 3804
Good Answers: 69
#6
In reply to #5

Re: Talking About Black Holes

04/09/2012 11:23 AM

"Another problem with detecting the waves from a binary black hole is the velocity of the orbits. From our point of view they could be spinning faster than we can detect as gravity waves."

I think the problem lies in the opposite direction. The orbits of the larger BHs that we have a better chance of detecting are too slow and hence of too low a frequency for our current detectors. The so-called crescendo frequency of a BH merger is about 10 kHz divided by the combined mass of the BHs (in solar-masses). It kind of 'chirps' up from a lower frequency to this crescendo. Listen here.

AFAIK, LIGO was designed for best sensitivity around 1 kHz (10 solar masses). Bigger BHs will produce stronger signals, but LIGO then run into sensitivity problems due to the lower frequency. LISA, when it happens, should do better.

"If the frequency of rotation is as high as the frequency of gamma radiation, ..."

Not quite possible, I think...

-J

__________________
"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge." -- Kahlil Gibran
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: OZ, otherwise known as Oklahoma were the wind comes sweeping down the plains.
Posts: 159
Good Answers: 4
#7

Re: Talking About Black Holes

04/09/2012 8:13 PM

Two black holes colliding, what if one is anti-matter?

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11119
Good Answers: 918
#8
In reply to #7

Re: Talking About Black Holes

04/09/2012 9:23 PM

Or worse - pasta and anti-pasta.

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Glen Mills, PA.
Posts: 2385
Good Answers: 114
#9
In reply to #7

Re: Talking About Black Holes

04/09/2012 11:27 PM

Would they not repel each other. If likes attract then unlike must hate each other, or perhaps it's just "Low T".

__________________
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Cosmology - Let's keep knowledge expanding Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - Hobbies - HAM Radio - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: North America, Earth
Posts: 4528
Good Answers: 106
#10
In reply to #9

Re: Talking About Black Holes

04/09/2012 11:56 PM

There is overwhelming consensus among physicists that antimatter will attract both matter and antimatter, but some anti-gravity theories can be found here.

__________________
“I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” - Richard Feynman
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 11 comments

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Hero (2); aurizon (2); Deefburger (1); Grand Poobah (1); Jorrie (3); passingtongreen (1); StandardsGuy (1)

Previous in Forum: The Black Hole War   Next in Forum: Blocked Hotmail Account

Advertisement