Electrical Code Question

Well maybe I don't understand your tortured English, but it sounds like you're saying you have a meter can with no wire connections in it....which makes no sense at all....and the rest is well unrecognizable...If you have a 200A meter can with breaker, it should have wire lug connections in it, if you don't, then you got ripped off....

Solar Eagle,

Oh come-on, when did engineers become english teachers.

I bought a standard 200amp panel with a bus bar instead of lugs, cause I need the bus bar to connect 2 breakers, one for the solar panels Im installing and one for the electrical outlet I need for power equipment.

So you are saying I need to buy a different panel?

So far the only thing I know is that you have a 200A meter can with a busbar, some sort of main breaker, and no wiring connections, and you're asking how to hook the wiring up....In the picture I provided, you can see the lug connections are typically attached...Now if you have some some sort of special application piece of equipment, then it would appear to be either incomplete (missing parts) or unsuitable for this application....Now you say you want to use this panel as a grid tie in? and distribution? I must be missing something, how about a picture? and simple component drawing?

Hello, Question one. The meter panel. The main lines come into and through the meter, then that feeds the main buss with the main breaker. You would then attach the wiring on the output of the breaker and then feed it to the other "old panel". Where the wiring from the "old meter" fed into the "old main breaker".

Now You will need to run a ground AND a neutral from the "new panel to the "old panel".

In the old panel you will NEED to separate the ground and neutral bus bars. As this "old panel" becomes a sub panel to the new one.

Question 2. Not exactly sure of the question so I will hazard a answer. (always get verified correct answers from a license professional) {this is from my experience}.

Install a new ground rod or rods [based on ground conduction of the dirt] at the new meter.(don't drive them through the buried cables). Ground rods need to be installed in undisturbed dirt/earth.

As in Q1, the ground and neutral are separated. YOU WILL NEED to disconnect the "old ground rod" from the "old panel" also. It is not needed any more.

You will need to move any other grounds ie: phone system, cable, satellite system, antenna system, gas service, water service etc... to the new ground rod. This will prevent/reduce stray ground loops "not good for people or equipment" .

Hope this gives you what you need.

Millage in your jurisdiction may vary. Check with codes or a license installer as they are the ones who will approve it or not. Do it right do it once.

Charles

It does not matter at all what we think will meet your local codes. What matters is what these people think. They likely will follow this code. To properly interpret these codes to meet the conditions at your location will require the license and certification found here. I know that you'd like to save some money by doing this yourself. Unless you're qualified to interpret these codes by having an electricians license or at least an electrical engineering degree, you will be putting yourself and anyone in your residence at risk.

Are you serious? You are or have moved your meter, the meter the electric company comes to read? Why would you do that? Are you also moving your underground feeder or overhead feeder? Thankfully you are NOT moving your service panel!

If you have opened the meter can, you have cut off the Electric Companies reg clip, If you did not fill out a disconnect/reconnect file and obtain a SR# you my friend are in violation of the Electric Company in my area anyways. They will NOT reconnect you and if You do it, you will be shut off when they find out. And will not be re-energized until you pass a full blown electrical inspection at your expense. And it is not a cheap ordeal with fines and all , in my area, your looking at $2500.00 easy+.

I don't know why you want to move your meter, you never specified a renovation which I have done before, only with the power companies blessing and all paperwork in order and all NEC codes followed.

Spacecannon--

A more complete description of your plans will possibly net you an answer that is valid. From your second post and location, it sounds like you are hoping to incorporate solar PV into your energy mix. If so, you will have to either totally isolate the two sources so it is impossible to have them interconnected, or go through the process and expense of a grid-interactive system, in which excess power can be sold back to the grid.

A good answer told you that separation of the neutral and ground is required everywhere excepting in the panel that houses the main (service) disconnect. That is a code requirement. This separation includes feeders from your old main panel to the electric range and electric dryer (they were commonly fed with a 3-wire cable and allowed to have the frame bonded to the neutral, but this permission is not valid in your case).

Often, purchasing a main-lug panel and a main breaker to fit onto the bus bars in the panel is less expensive than the alternative of a subfeed lug kit. You can also find and buy panels with subfeed lugs already installed, but they are not common at the do-it-yourself stores.

You are allowed up to 10 feet from your meter inside the house to your main disconnect. If this allows you to use the new location and go directly to your old panel, then that is an option. However, the wires have to be protected from physical damage (conduit). If you want to go further, the wires have to be "outside" the structure, such as conduit encased in a specified amount of concrete or beneath a concrete slab 4" thick...

If your meter socket incorporates a main breaker, then the above advice needs to be modified. If your old service has a 200 amp bus, then you can feed it as a subfeed. However, if it is smaller, then you have to follow the rules for feeder taps--to be safe, you would want to start the feeder with a breaker sized for the panel being fed (such as 125 or 100 amps).

I've been doing this, with licenses, permits, inspections, etc. for almost 40 years, and I still occasionally make mistakes. You have many ways to approach this problem, and we aren't being told enough to help wade through the options. Please get competent advice and help, and don't end up becoming another funeral pyre.

--JMM

Surly the meter and cableing to the meter is company property and shouldnt be touched unless this is a secondry meter.

Bazzer

This entire thread sounds like a disaster waiting to happen! I foresee a utility lineman being electrocuted by this idiot's home grown kluge system, I will not participate as an accessory to that poor unfortunate soul's death.

I really like CR4, but sometimes you guys read more into this than is said.

Ok

1) I could have explained more (my apploigies), but I thought it was self explanitory, Who said anything about not having permits or inspections?

2) However the critisizm without provocation or full knowledge is unwarrented.

3) Thanks for the suggestion about the special panel with the built in lugs and a bus bar. The fellow that made this suggestion obviously understood the question and is a good human being.

4) full explanation, ...

a) doing it with permits

b) have had utility companys blessing as long as I pass inspections, but their standard hand out plan-set for this kind of thing doesnt answer my questions and they are very hard to get a call back from, and the people you talk to are low level experience that only will verify their existing planset handouts.

c) Im a General contractor, but no I dont have the NEC memorized.

d) The existing power line comes in via overhead then goes under ground for about 50', to our existing 200amp panel were the current meter is.

e) The new panel location is 15' east off of the existing overhead power pole.

f) The power line will run underground from the existing power pole to the new panel, then under ground to the old panel.

g) I install the the new panel in the new location on a treated plywood board on posts as per utility specs.

h) I install 2 ground rods, 6 feet apart and 6 feet from the new panel location.

i) The utility company attaches the power line to the new panel and installs the new meter after it all passes inspection.

j) my question was about methods of attaching my lines to the new panel, use Lugs or a 200amp breaker with a subfeed lug, or Im told now to buy a panel with lugs and a busbar already built in.

k) my other question was about distance of separation from undergound powerlines and my new ground rods,... any answers?

l) The solar comes in the future and Iam trying to plan for it, Im told all I need is a place to feed in the solar AC lines to the panel, a bus bar connection with a breaker. There will be manuel disconnects required, but they may allow the main breaker on the new panel to function as that.

Now is everyone sufficiently informed or just alienated and ticked-off?

Thanks and GAs to all reasonable people, Spacecannon

Let's see if we're all on the same page:
a) being done with permits ~ "ok"
b) have utility company's blessing ~ "ok"
c) GC / General Contractor "in control" ~ ("check")
d) existing power line comes in via overhead then goes underground for about 50', to existing 200A panel (pictured~"D").
e) The new panel location is 15' east off of the existing overhead power pole(pictured~"E").
f) The power line will run underground from the existing power pole to the new panel, then under ground to the old panel (pictured).
g) I install the the new panel in the new location on a treated plywood board on posts as per utility specs ("understood").
h) I install 2 ground rods, 6 feet apart and 6 feet from the new panel location (pictured; 1&2).
i) The utility company attaches the power line to the new panel and installs the new meter after it all passes inspection (red line "i").

Now as for question "j" ~
"I'm told now to buy a panel with lugs and a busbar already built in" (sounds like good advice).

As for question "k" ~
(about distance of separation from undergound powerlines and my new ground rods):
Others have suggested getting a licensed electrician involved. From personal experience, this will only confuse matters more.
When I 'complained' about some the spa belonging to some friends NOT having the equipment properly grounded (and I mean no ground whatsoever, they called a local electrician to check it out. He assured them: "No need to worry. See this (white) wire in your sub-panel for the equipment here...it runs all the way back to your main panel, where it attaches to all the OTHER white wires AND grounds all on the same bar. They're ALL grounded equally! You are as safe as you can get."
So, make certain that there IS a safe distance of separation between undergound powerlines and your new ground rods.

With regard to "l" ~
l) "The solar comes in the future and I'm trying to plan for it" (planning is good). "I'm told all I need is a place to feed in the solar AC lines to the panel, a bus bar connection with a breaker. There will be manual disconnects required, but (the main breaker on the new panel will serve that function)."
Clearly this is planning for WAY down the road. Simply connect the a.c. output from your 35th generation a.c. solar panels as per the photo in Post #1 above, and you are set.

Next!

ndt-tom,

Thanks, GA, thats all I wanted to know.

Later dudes, Spacecannon