Curaflo Scam?

Thank you for the reply. I'm glad to know the technology isn't a scam; however, I'm wondering if I even needed it for my problem.

The plumber said there was water at the base of two toilets and water by my water heater (main) drain, suggesting that it was backing up. He said it could be because of pipe corrosion and something blocking the line or as simple as something clogging it so that when toilets were flushed, the force of it going down the main to hit an obstacle, was backing it up. (To be fair, I had noticed water at the base of two of three of my toilets on occasion, but never constantly.) Now I am wondering if it was just broken wax seals, as I am learning stuff as I investigate this repair more.

He said he had to drive to Iowa (about 4 hours away) to get the product, as it sets up too fast to be sent UPS and he also had to rent an installation truck.

I don't recall him mentioning anything about having to clean the pipe, though he may have. He said the epoxy lining would lift up the broken section of the pipe as it dried, preventing it from falling further, rather like angioplasty in a person's artery. It seemed logical at the time.

I'm not usually one of those people who take one person's word, but instead get several inspections/quotes. But this guy was recommended by a friend who used to work with him. So I didn't get other estimates or opinions.

Unfortunately, there is nothing on the website about how this would be done in a townhouse. It shows the procedure being done on a larger apartment building and larger pipes. It actually says it is a treatment for pipes over 4" if I recall correctly. I trusted him, so I didn't stay for the whole procedure, and all I saw was a hose going down the pipe the downstairs toilet sat on after he pulled it (this toilet is on a slab.) The website shows the procedure needing access to both sides, but I saw no other access.

Your thoughts on this?

Cleaning most of the debris from the inside of a pipe before relining seems pretty critical to me. I'd be surprised if a reputable installer skipped this step.

This video shows the basic CIPP process.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhE8UhWOnM0&feature=endscreen&NR=1

The bladder pressure should be able to restore a "partial" pipe collapse, but I doubt it can be used where the pipe has fully collapsed. Once the epoxy cures, the lining is hard and securely adhered to the inside of the old pipe. Any lateral lines or cleanouts will be blocked and will need to be cutout/drilled from access through those sections, but this should not be too difficult.

Costs vary a lot depending on region and conditions. I'd "guestimate" digging replacement costs around ~ $150-$250 per foot and relining costs around ~ $75-$125 per foot. I would need ~50ft for my house so ~ $6K doesn't seem outrageous (just painful ).

His receipt said he went out 30', but there was no digging involved. Just taking off the toilet and inserting a hose down it. My main line is in a slab.

This sounds reasonable? He was at my house maybe four hours...maybe.

Actually, he could have been at the house only two hours. I was in a class when he arrived (left the door open for him, because after all, this was someone my friend had worked with and vouched for and he'd done other little stuff for me and seemed trustworthy) and left shortly after I got back. So I don't really know how long he was there and didn't watch anything.

NOT my usual M.O. but this was supposed to be a trusted guy.

Sounds like your plumber may be the scam.

There are lining compounds that are used very widely in industry to prevent or eliminate leakage on systems that are near the end of their service life. I have never heard of one that is designed to actually repair a pipe that has collapsed, as you've described. Get proof of the result.

My townhouse was built either 1990 or 1994. The plumber said "old" houses like mine used steel sections put together for the main drains and over time, especially in a slab like I'm on and in cold/hot weather, not only does steel corrode, but it also can shift and the sections can come apart. He showed me a video traversing a pipe to about 9' where a section of pipe had dropped partway into the drain (he said this was about in the middle of my kitchen.) I didn't even see him feed the camera into the drain, though, as I was in another room. For all I know, that wasn't even a camera shot of MY drain!

He said newer construction didn't use the steel piping, but PVC instead, which this corrosion doesn't happen to. But I built a new house in '94 in this same town (sold it since) and they used PVC, not steel. So this townhouse isn't "old" as he describes, as they were using PVC when I built my house at the same time. Since I can't see inside the pipe, as it is in the slab, how do I know it isn't PVC here, too, and his camera film wasn't even my drainpipe?

And if it isn't used to fix dropped sections, then it would appear I was scammed.

He won't return phone calls, but my friend in the heating/cooling business who used to work with him says he is an ethical guy, just really bad at the "business end" (like returning calls, etc.)

I know he works parttime for another business in my town, so I may have to actually go there to track him down.

What do you suggest?

Do you suggest I contact the Curaflo company through their website for a free estimate/inspection?

I see there is a place to do that under "single family homes" on the sidebar.

Wouldn't the company itself be the best judge if their product had been appropriate for my plumber's evaluation of the problem? Or would they be reticent to go against someone's having used their product in an instance like this?

I'm fairly lost as to who can help me if I was a victim of a scam.

Run far, run fast.

I don't know where you are from, but drains are usually cast iron, not steel- galvanized pipe is pressure pipe, designed to be threaded. The point is that PVC has largely replaced iron in residential construction decades ago, long before 1990. Cast iron may wear out after 40-50 years (if that!), but 20 is pretty short unless you pour a lot of acid down the drain. Also, any shifting would be due to external issues- such as a settled slab- & not the choice of material. I'm very sceptical of the claim to fix a broken pipe with a thin layer of composite material- how do they contol the thickness & centring in that case? As far as the claim about UPS, that's BS. These products would be mixed on site.

2 choices- get a second opinion out of the yellow pages, or go & see if you can rent one of these cameras yourself. Look for a "ridgid see-snake" or similar. You could also just take off a toilet & see if the closet flange is PVC or not. If it's ABS there could be iron afterwards.

My mistake, I think, in terms. I think he said cast iron, not steel. But the comment about "old houses" not having PVC gave me pause, as this house isn't old!

The type of material used for sewer laterals is usually highly dependent on the ordinances in-place for the sewer dept. having jurisdiction. Some municipalities still require cast iron sewer laterals, whereas some now (and have for some time now...in the last 30 years or so) permit PVC laterals.

It is quite conceivable that you may have a cast iron sewer lateral. Are the sanitary drain lines installed throughout the house cast iron or PVC? Age of the house?

CaptMoosie:

By sewer laterals, do you mean the main waste water pipes? I don't know the technical terms for the pipes you are asking about...are sanitary drain lines the pipes leading away from the toilets?

The townhouse was built somewhere between 1990-1994.

Went to my municipal building this morning and told my story. The main inspector wasn't in today, but will call me tomorrow. Judging from the reaction of the woman who heard my tale, this is a scam. But we will see.

I asked her if the city had helped provide documentation before for citizen's scam/fraud situations and she said they did.

I'm crossing my fingers.

Thank you so much for your (and everyone else's) information here. I so appreciate it.

P.S. I built a house in this town, actually only a few miles away from my townhouse now, in 1994 and my subcontractor told me that it was really hard to build a bad house in my town, because the city's codes were so strict. I don't think anything was wrong with the main. I'm beginning to think the toilet seals just needed redoing.

The main waste lines run nearly horizontal but with a slight pitch downwards away from the toilets, tub/shower drains, and the sink drains. they terminate at your house sanitary sewer lateral that runs to the city sewer in the street or easement.

I'm beginning to doubt that your sewer lateral was that bad that it needed relining or ant type, given that it is approximately 20+ years old, even with a high degree of acidic soil and equally high concentrations of hydrogen sulfide gas inside the sewer system.

I small a big Norwegian Sewer Rat who moonlights as a scamming plumber.

Step #1: First, see what the City Engineer's office or the Planning dept can do for you. Hopefully they can examine the sewer lateral for you and determine the validity of the plumber's claim or not. Usually this can be done. I was once a City Engineer in a small upstate NY city 2 decades ago, and we helped many people who suspected a scam and/or exorbitant overcharges.

Step #2: Base on what happens in Step #1, you may want to elicit the help of the city's sewer dept.. With luck they'll have a piece of sewer televising equipment on hand or know of a local contractor that does. It is imperative that you obtain video or still photos of the inside of the entire sewer lateral if you want to take the plumber to court.

Thanks so much!

Your information is invaluable to me. As I said, I'm not uninformed about getting several estimates on work, but this was supposed to be a reputable guy. Makes me wonder if my friend who worked with him( at a respected heating/plumbing/AC company which has been around our city for decades) really knew him well. I would be blown away if my friend knew all about him and was in on this!

It's tough being a single woman and dealing with this stuff.

I was encouraged by the attention paid to my situation at our municipal building today and hope I can get this resolved.

Sincere thanks, again.

One more question, Capt:

When you helped people who had been scammed or exorbitantly charged, do you know if they received restitution? Do you know the channels one would have to take to get restitution?

I assume court. Would a lawyer be needed?

B. Kimball, you're very welcome. I'm glad to have been of service to you.

IF the city officials do indeed help you, you need to take the following steps:

1. Be present when they inspect your sewer lateral. Also, have a trusted friend who is savvy about plumbing and construction issues......do not include the friend who helped the plumber. If need be, hire an independent construction inspector who in familiar with plumbing, especially relining of sanitary sewers. They're listed in the Yellow Pages or can be found online. Choose one that is licensed and insured, as well as willing to testify on your behalf (if needed) in court proceedings.

2. Be sure to jot down notes about what is said, even if it includes jargon that you don't fully understand. Always ask for clarification about anything and everything that is stated. Better yet, record the entire inspection with a video camera. Prior to filming, you must get all of the people involved in the inspection to agree that they have no problem with you doing so. If need be, have them sign and date a waiver statement.

3. Obtain photocopies of all inspection records from those persons present.

3. IF the city officials, upon finalization of inspection, feel that a scam was done, and/ or the relining work was unnecessary, and/or poorly implemented, then you need to have the sewer lateral totally televised....they will send a robotic camera down the entire length of the sewer lateral, from your lateral cleanout plug/cap located near the foundation wall all the way to the sanitary sewer out in the street. You can hire reputable firms in your area that do this. It will be somewhat costly, but a necessary item you must have to prove to a judge that the work was not required and you were scammed, etc. An alternative action would be to have the city sewer department televise the sewer lateral IF they have the equipment to do so with. Obtain a VHS tape copy of the televised inspection, including all still photos that the firm prints out at "trouble spots", etc. etc.

4. If the city officials, independent inspector, and the sewer televising firm all believe you were scammed or defrauded, or if the relining was not necessary, then I feel that you must hire an attorney experienced in construction fraud. They must be well versed in construction and engineering procedures. Hiring Joe Blow who just passed the Bar is going to suffice if you want to recover the monies spent on the relining + inspection costs + legal fees. Because of the $6000+ amount involved (not including inspection costs and legal fees), you may be above your state's limit for Small Claims Court and end up in a Civil Court. That is why it is imperative that you obtain the services of a seasoned attorney. Also, your attorney may require you obtain a Registered Professional Engineer (P.E.), in this case a PE that is a Civil Engineer experienced in sanitary/wastewater engineering and construction matters, to provide EXPERT TESTIMONY and render a professional opinion of fact in court on your behalf.

I'm afraid that this route is about the only legal method available to you to obtain a refund of your money. That should do it for now, and should get you started in the right direction. Please print this out and save it.

BTW, what state are you located in? Just curious....

Wow, thank you SO much for those details!

Unfortunately, I talked to the city this morning and they will not get involved and do not have camera equipment. They know the plumber well (they assured me that my report is confidential...I hope so) and gave me several numbers of plumbing outfits that might have the camera equipment. One doesn't do that work and another one does, but wanted to charge me $500! If this plumber would just return his phone calls and show me the finished product tape he said he would, that would go a long way. Sure seems he is concealing something.

This particular "on the side" plumber (now...not with the big plumbing company in town anymore) seems to be known about town and not in a negative way. There are several others whom we have in common (my realtor, a very expert and trusted guy) with whom I want to run this scenario by to get their reaction.

This plumber just lost the business he tried to start on his own after leaving (or being laid off? I have to find that out...) and was recently divorced and l believe lost the house. He has moved to the town over but still works in my town. I'm wondering if he is in a tight place for money and sometimes people are driven to do things they wouldn't ordinarily do in that case.

I'm in the midst of digesting all you said and deciding whether it is all worth the extra expense and grief. Or if I should chalk it up to a bad experience.

Life is short.

B.Kimball, I would consider the $500 fee for televising the sewer lateral money well spent. It's actually a fairly low quote for such services. If you decide to go to court over this there's a high likelihood you will recoup those costs, along with legal fees and court costs if the judge decides in your favor.

The more that you tell us of this individual the more I feel something is just not right, especially if he lost a job, had a divorce, lost his business, child support (?), and lost his house. Yes, you're quite correct if money is tight or nonexistent, then normal up and up people do extraordinary things, even deception and theft. Since he hasn't returned you telephone calls or given you the videotape, then I suspect a lot of things aren't quite Kosher.......call it a nagging feeling.

Personally, I don't think spending over 6 Grand on something that possibly wasn't necessary is anything to sneeze at and then chalk it up to a bad experience. Look at it this way: IF he did deceive you and earned a kool $6K for doing zip, he's likely to do it again to others. Frankly, I would want to nip this in the bud and have him end up behind bars, with your money returned to you. Then there's you conscience of knowing he may be doing this to other unsuspecting good-hearted people and getting away with it. It's much akin of having a rape victim turning the other cheek and letting the SOB get away (by not testifying) with it again and again and again to others. I know that's a poor example, but it's the best I could come up with on short order. I hope you know where I'm coming from....

Please let us know how this turns out for you! Good luck.......wishing I was in your state because I would do the investigation Pro Bono just to nail a scam artist!!! Unfortunately, I cannot practice Professional Engineering in a state that I'm not Registered in.

Have a great day!

ps: If you decide to go after him with litigation and can't afford it, you can always turned to the local Legal Aid Society. Also, most states require attorneys to perform a certain amount of Pro Bono work for clients that cannot normally afford a lawyer.

Capt (and anyone else) --

Can we just back up for a minute and can I get your thoughts, please? Although this plumber told me iron pipes eventually can crumble, etc. the "fix" was for a camera photo of a section of pipe that had fallen perhaps 1/3 to 1/2 of the way down in the structure (in other words, a section that had come loose with the shifting of the ground in a slab.) It wasn't to line the pipe due to deterioration. He said if this were in a basement, the fix would be so much easier: just take out that section and replace it.

But since it was in a slab, the only option used to be to jackhammer through the floor and the slab to get to it.

Then he said that there was a relatively new product called Curaflo, an epoxy used to line pipes that have developed pinhole leaks (as iron can do over time) but would also fix this dropped section of pipe by lifting it up as it dried.

I just want to be sure I explained this clearly and that your comments are still valid for this explanation.

In addition, since my toilets were not backing up that I could see, he suggested this fix based on a little water at the base of one toilet (another one had had water at its base from time to time I volunteered) and some wetness he said he observed at the point where the upstairs toilet waste lines came down into I guess what you'd call the main juncture. He didn't flush any toilets in front of me to show me any kind of backup that I recall. I've never had to plunge any toilets.

So could it be possible that the toilet base water was simply from worn out wax seals or whatever those seals are that adhere the toilet to the floor? Is there any other reason water could've been there?

I am going to call my townhouse association's management company to ascertain if the original drain lines are in sections (iron) or PVC...wouldn't you think that would tell us something? If they are PVC, they are installed in long sections, not pieced together as he explained the iron sections were, right? So if they are indeed PVC, then that photo of a dropped section couldn't even be mine, right?

Comments? Please?

Oh, and I'm in IL. (You asked and I forgot to answer.)

Hello B. Kimball,

Wow, you certainly have a laundry list of questions. Since there are so many and I have many ask you, perhaps it is best that you call me. I promise to keep it short. I think we can cover a lot of ground through a phone call rather than go back and forth in this blog thread.

PM me and we can set up a time for the conference if you so desire. I will supply you with my office cellular number. I'm pretty much available all day tomorrow if that is okay. Just keep in mind that I'm on Eastern Time in New York State.

If you do not want to do a teleconference just say so in the open forum, okay. I'll understand.