Previous in Forum: Science Discovers the Meaning Of Life   Next in Forum: Who or What Lit the Fuse
Close
Close
Close
Page 1 of 2: « First 1 2 Next > Last »
Anonymous Poster #1

Gun Control

12/14/2012 5:29 PM

I believe that the people on CR4 generally have higher than average intelligence, that is why I am starting the discussion here.

The USA has once again encountered a tragic occurrence involving automatic weapons being used to kill innocent people (in this case, children in a school setting), yet we seem unable to define the most effective means to protect students from one another and outsiders bearing weapons. [This situation is not unique to the USA]. Considering the disproportionate hold that lobbyists have on politicians and the Constitutional issues, gun control is unlikely to happen, so what could be done to protect the public, since criminals will always get and use guns illegally. BTW, I have a Concealed Carry Weapons permit, but I doubt that any of these people have them.

Any reasonably cost effective solutions you can think of ?

Reply
Interested in this discussion?
You can "subscribe" to this discussion to be notified of new comments.
Click on the Subscribe menu at the top of the page.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22207
Good Answers: 402
#1

Re: Gun Control

12/14/2012 5:48 PM

What ever your preconceived notions of people here at cr4. Just keep in mind politically we have an average spectrum.

People talk about how we can or should protect others. That's one way, another way is addressing the perpetrator, and if there is anything that can be done there. Was there warning signs that was brought to attention and ignored?.

It's my opinion that the perpetrator is what has to be address here also, not just trying to make a safer environment, by also addressing this you are actually making the environment safer.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Reply
3
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7045
Good Answers: 206
#2

Re: Gun Control

12/14/2012 5:49 PM

I agree with a lot of what you say but I don't think this is the place for the discussion

Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#3

Re: Gun Control

12/14/2012 6:19 PM

If you want to talk about technology, the school had a video and audio identification system installed two weeks ago, along with having the school locked down after the kids were in class.......................they buzzed him in.

I heard an interview with a cop today. The botton line is, that no one, (including cops), are safe from an unexpected sneak attack out of nowhere.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
2
Power-User

Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 193
Good Answers: 3
#4

Re: Gun Control

12/14/2012 6:39 PM

People soak up all forms media and film and TV and over years it changes them. The past was not all rosy, but look at the old Batman / Star Trek. Look at the values they held up. Look at the part of the viewer they spoke to. What of media now? CR4 has some clever people and what could be more appropriate than to wish to sound out their views in the general section.

Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
5
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Gun Control

12/14/2012 6:54 PM

When I was a kid, just about all of us had our own 22 rifle.

I saw the latest war game that my 15 year old nephew was playing on X Box, and I can't help but think that having these kids spending hour after hour in front of a TV, filling their days with fantasy killing and gore, might have something to do with this madness. It damned sure isn't helping anything.

I think their minds are numbed to what is fake and what is real. Or they reach a point of expertise in the games that they get boring, and reality becomes the next step in the game.

I do know that I don't recall anything like this happening when I was a kid.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply Good Answer (Score 5)
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Washington USA
Posts: 566
Good Answers: 53
#6
In reply to #5

Re: Gun Control

12/14/2012 7:03 PM

GA kramarat, I believe the the realism and gore of modern video games de-sensitizes the players.

Reply
2
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42259
Good Answers: 1659
#8
In reply to #6

Re: Gun Control

12/14/2012 7:09 PM

Yes, They have no concept of what happens when a high velocity .22 goes into your body. Or any bullet for that matter.

Hunters know. Video game players don't.

Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22207
Good Answers: 402
#87
In reply to #8

Re: Gun Control

12/17/2012 1:22 PM

the above comments I am in total agreement of, especially the desensitizing of our following generations with the video games.

I am not against it, but they haven't a clue that a virtual game is no way compared to reality on the effect of violence such as what a bullet actually does to soft tissue.

They probably think that the bullet itself kills, but if they understand that the bullet actually creates the least amount of damage and that it's the shock wave of the bullet that does the damage by jellifing the surrounding soft tissues, not to mention there is no do over as in their virtual games compared to real life.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Located in South eastern North Carolina, I am a retired Supt of Public Works. also I am wheelchair confined due to an INdustrial accident of the Bends (Caissone Disease) from a construction Diver/underwater mechanic.
Posts: 64
Good Answers: 2
#189
In reply to #8

Re: Gun Control

12/21/2012 12:40 AM

At one time I owned a farm, we killed dressed and butchered our own animals cows, shepp, pigs, chickens, and I, as well as my son's & daughter hunted deer. They learned to respect the suddenest of death. I killed cows with a .22LR pistol. The effect of a 1000 pound animal collapsing so immediately, impresses anyone who might witness it.

Video games gives a player a false sense of combat or life in general. They are a game where there is reality is replaced by fantasy. Nothing good can ever come of that.

Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maritimes
Posts: 264
Good Answers: 2
#28
In reply to #5

Re: Gun Control

12/15/2012 8:39 AM

Same thing here in New Brunswick. Every kid had a .22 and was absolutely safe with the rifle from the age of 10.

One of my sons, raised in the more recent firearms suppression era here in Canada, gave me serious concerns during his late teens. So many days spent killing opponents in realistic depictions of gore and fire on computers appeared to desensitize him to proper gun-handling. He had been VERY GOOD with firearms before.

When you and I were kids, comic book depictions were about as bad as it got - and there really is no comparison.

If I had to pick a single cause for this paradyme shift, I would agree that it is the desensitizing of young minds to the obscene - in this case with gore and mutilation.

I don't know how we change what sells.

And in my opinion the discussion is very appropriate for us CR4'ers since some of us are software engineers.

__________________
Out in a Bowt
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42259
Good Answers: 1659
#7

Re: Gun Control

12/14/2012 7:06 PM

No.

You can't defend against insanity.

Reply
Associate

Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 53
Good Answers: 2
#134
In reply to #7

Re: Gun Control

12/18/2012 6:27 PM

I've said for a long time now that we do not need better gun control, rather we need better crazy control.

Unfortunately for victims of mass killings and such, most of the time crazy is simply not detectable until its too late. One of the few recent exceptions was the Virginia Tech killer. He was diagnosed a year before his spree as being highly unstable and likely to be a danger to himself and others. At that point, any reasonable society would have placed him into a controlled environment - but our current laws concerning the handling of the mentally ill are not nearly as reasonable as they should be.

Violence on TV and in video games definitely does not help the problem, IMHO.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South of Minot North Dakota
Posts: 8378
Good Answers: 773
#9

Re: Gun Control

12/14/2012 7:39 PM

I think most everyone here is missing the obvious part of the problem. The guns and whatever are not the problem. Its the people plain and simple and not just the gun toting one, everyone.


Look at it this way for example, if I want you dead taking away everyone's guns and firearms wont stop me.


I can still shoot you but I just have to change my propellant to something else like a high pressure gas as in shoot you in the head with a simple ball bearing shot from a common paint ball gun that has been turned way up. Now what are you going to do? Take away all forms of compressible gas?
Even then if I cant shoot you I can get a sharp pointy anything and stab you in the eye or ear with it. It may not kill you but if I do it right I can scramble enough of your brain to basically render you a vegetable or at least too simple to ever cause me problems again.


No pointy sticks? no problem. I just punch you in the head until you are unconscious and then suffocate or choke you until dead or brain damaged.
The point is if you don't want people killing other people you have to fix the people and not just some of the people all of them. If I want to kill you its partially my doing and partially yours for giving me reasons I feel killing you are justified enough to go through with it.


Think about it for a bit. Firearms regulation and control is not the problem or the solution. Fixing how people act and get along and why so for good and bad is.

Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 193
Good Answers: 3
#10
In reply to #9

Re: Gun Control

12/14/2012 7:53 PM

Do people in America valorize guns? If your government put out the message that they ban guns ,because they are not how we want our vision of ourselves to be, would that change anything? I live in uk.

Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7883
Good Answers: 279
#22
In reply to #9

Re: Gun Control

12/15/2012 12:02 AM

I'm with you on everything except:

'...If I want to kill you its partially my doing and partially yours for giving me reasons I feel killing you are justified enough to go through with it....'

.

It is not uncommon for murder victim to have done nothing to make the murderer feel justified in their action, or perhaps they acted without feeling justified.

.

Sometimes killers are neither rational nor seeking justification.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#11

Please, Don't.

12/14/2012 8:12 PM

Let's not!

Gun control always devolves to an emotional argument.

The root cause of the problem is us, not guns. Unfortunately, we are a sick society and just seem to get sicker year after year.

You can put a bandaid on the problem, but until you address the root causes of the problem it will never go away.

Unfortunately, that seems to be the last thing that we want to face.

So, let's not go down the road of the emotional arguments and just reflect on this tragedy and let people morn this heartbreaking incident in peace.

Thanks.

Reply
2
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16497
Good Answers: 661
#12

Re: Gun Control

12/14/2012 8:19 PM

I can see a legitimate need for guns for hunting, defence or whatever.
I can see no need to own automatic weapons. If you want to shoot 'em at a range, fine, but I see no legitimate reason to have them available to the public.
There are legitimate uses for explosives and concentrated acids, we don't let anyone have access to them... why are automatic weapons different.
As to the right to bear arms, fine, just make the arms the same sort of thing that was available when the legislation was first written.
Just my opinion, and frankly I'm not actually interested in any other, it's not my back yard, just offering a view from where we can see the wood through the trees.

Del

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#13
In reply to #12

Re: Gun Control

12/14/2012 8:25 PM

AH is right.

This was not an automatic weapon, and whether intentional or not, the thread title is provocative to the point, that meltdown is guaranteed. I'm out.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#14
In reply to #13

Re: Gun Control

12/14/2012 8:38 PM

Yes, and by an anonymous poster, no less. Might as well be a troll we are feeding. Heaven help us.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7883
Good Answers: 279
#23
In reply to #12

Re: Gun Control

12/15/2012 12:10 AM

'....There are legitimate uses for explosives and concentrated acids, we don't let anyone have access to them......'

.

Are you sure about that?

Access to explosives and concentrated acids isn't really that restricted.

.

(if you don't like that first example of available explosives, I think this one is tannerite, which should easily qualify as an explosive.)

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA, Florida
Posts: 1551
Good Answers: 125
#30
In reply to #23

Re: Gun Control

12/15/2012 9:16 AM

I use tannerite quite frequently. It is a perfectly safe targeting aid.

However, like I believe you are implying, in an idiots hands there could be trouble.

__________________
An obstacle is something you see when you take your eyes off the goal.
Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maritimes
Posts: 264
Good Answers: 2
#44
In reply to #23

Re: Gun Control

12/16/2012 7:41 AM

God forbid that Hollywood action movies by the score and a never-ending procession of video games will come to glorify and normalize fertilizer bombs. Thus far....but only to date...we have an apples to oranges comparison when we peel back the layers on this one. That may all go sideways if we see a couple of major action heroes crafting them and then a few games created to celebrate the joy (and the pain)! :(

That having been said, it remains a surprise that e-bay is a trading floor for ammonium nitrate. Thanks for sharing.

__________________
Out in a Bowt
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7883
Good Answers: 279
#51
In reply to #44

Re: Gun Control

12/16/2012 2:54 PM

Luckily Ammonium Nitrate is pretty insensitive. Even mixed with fuel oil (ANFO) detonation typically requires another explosive. I'm pretty sure tannerite is just micronized aluminum intimately mixed with ammonium nitrate, and it is sensitive enough to detonate when hit with small caliber hand gun rounds (or perhaps it just deflagrates, does anyone here have specific knowledge?)

Still the substances necessary to make dangerously sensitive explosives are easily available most places, removing them all really isn't feasable.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA, Florida
Posts: 1551
Good Answers: 125
#181
In reply to #51

Re: Gun Control

12/20/2012 2:50 PM

Yes, I have specific knowledge.

Tannerite is a mixture of aluminum powder (very finely ground) and ammonium nitrate. The ratio is about 10 to 1, 1 being the aluminum.

It can't be detonated with any handgun (even a .50 caliber). It likewise can't be detonated with a .22 rifle (although they have a new form designed for .22 but it's not the original stuff). I have even tried .22 magnum rounds...no go.

Detonation occurs when a high velocity round strikes the powder container. I have used .308, .22-250, and .50 black powder rifle.

__________________
An obstacle is something you see when you take your eyes off the goal.
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7883
Good Answers: 279
#182
In reply to #181

Re: Gun Control

12/20/2012 4:29 PM

It is interesting that 22 mag rifle will not initiate the tannerite, but a black powder rifle will. It shows it isn't due to velocity alone.

Are you certain no handgun rounds will initiate the tannerite? There are some weighty handgun bullets that attain velocities similar to a typical .50 black powder rifle.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22207
Good Answers: 402
#183
In reply to #182

Re: Gun Control

12/20/2012 4:44 PM

It is interesting that 22 mag rifle will not initiate the tannerite, but a black powder rifle will. It shows it isn't due to velocity alone.

isn't it the shock wave created by the bullet, what is the mass of the bullet between the two.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7883
Good Answers: 279
#185
In reply to #183

Re: Gun Control

12/20/2012 5:00 PM

The difference in mass is enormous.

I'm not sure if larger more massive projectile striking a similar target as a smaller higher velocity projectile with less mass, necessarily creates higher amplitude shock wave.....

I'm sure it must be a function of energy of the projectile, but that would suggest that some handgun rounds should initiate the tannerite.

.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA, Florida
Posts: 1551
Good Answers: 125
#187
In reply to #182

Re: Gun Control

12/20/2012 7:37 PM

I own several handguns and have tried 9mm, .40, 38, and .45. None will cause detonation.

I don't own either a 44 mag or .50 cal but have been told they won't detonate it either.

The .50 cal black powder rifle has a muzzle velocity much lower than a .308 but does the job on tannerite.

Armalite AR10A4-CBF does it every time.

__________________
An obstacle is something you see when you take your eyes off the goal.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7883
Good Answers: 279
#184
In reply to #181

Re: Gun Control

12/20/2012 4:51 PM

WJMFIRE:

Hey another question. When a target is hit, does the detonation destroy the entire target? Or is the explosion limited to an area immediately surrounding the impact?

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA, Florida
Posts: 1551
Good Answers: 125
#186
In reply to #184

Re: Gun Control

12/20/2012 6:10 PM

The plastic container containing the tannerite cannot be found except in minuscule pieces.

A pumpkin about 16" diameter sitting on top of the tannerite container disappears.

I took a 12" diameter x 16" long piece of firewood (unsplit) and placed it on the ground standing on end. I then put 1/2 pound of tannerite in a small plastic tub on top. I then put another similar size piece of firewood on top standing up. This was seasoned gnarly oak. There were small pieces of splintered wood scattered over a 100' radius. Nothing large enough to use.

Just conducting some tests to see what it would do.

In my opinion, it should be illegal.

__________________
An obstacle is something you see when you take your eyes off the goal.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7883
Good Answers: 279
#188
In reply to #186

Re: Gun Control

12/20/2012 8:27 PM

Thank you for the info, here and #187.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Reply
Associate

Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 53
Good Answers: 2
#145
In reply to #12

Re: Gun Control

12/19/2012 12:54 AM

"I can see no need to own automatic weapons. If you want to shoot 'em at a range, fine, but I see no legitimate reason to have them available to the public."

Automatic weapons aren't available to the US public, and haven't been since the 1930's. They can only be legally owned after the purchase of a VERY expensive and nearly impossible to obtain federal license.

In fact they are far harder to obtain than said explosives and acids. Thats why virtually no crimes have been committed with them since the days of Al Capone.

The rifle used in fridays crime was not an automatic weapon. It was a semi-automatic Bushmaster AR15. Visually it looks like a Colt M16 used by the US military, but functionally its not even close.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7883
Good Answers: 279
#148
In reply to #145

Re: Gun Control

12/19/2012 1:24 AM

'....Thats why virtually no crimes have been committed with them since the days of Al Capone....'

.

Oh, we've had a few.

Occasionally we've had crimes committed with even more destructive weapons. Here is another one.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Reply
Associate

Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 53
Good Answers: 2
#150
In reply to #148

Re: Gun Control

12/19/2012 1:55 AM

Oh, I remember the bank shootout quite well - In fact in 89-91 I banked at the very BofA branch that was robbed that day. I remember pointing at the TV and yelling "Thats MY bank!" - though I had not been living there for about 5 years.

But its still pretty much a 'one off' incident, just like the stolen tank and the 'dozer incident. The fact remains that automatic weapons used in crimes is VERY rare.

IIRC the bank robbery was actually inspired by the movie "Heat".

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7045
Good Answers: 206
#15

Re: Gun Control

12/14/2012 8:42 PM
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42259
Good Answers: 1659
#16
In reply to #15

Re: Gun Control

12/14/2012 9:01 PM

Half Staff until sundown on December 18th.

Reply
Guru
India - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: India, 200 Km. North of Delhi.
Posts: 1387
Good Answers: 52
#17

Re: Gun Control

12/14/2012 9:06 PM

1. There should be mandatory for every gun holder to put a red light on his head.so that people can run away from him ahead of time. 2. Every bullet should be made with a GPRS traceble chip.

__________________
Jesus gave me message, Gandhi gave me method, M.L.K
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Glen Mills, PA.
Posts: 2385
Good Answers: 114
#18

Re: Gun Control

12/14/2012 10:02 PM

I really wanted to stay away from this thread. A provocative title and a poster without the conviction to give a screen name.

Those of us who would limit the types and fire power (huge ammo clips) need to say exactly that. Say "gun control" and the NRA is all over it interpreting it as "They want to take away our guns", even if that is specifically denied, and the movement goes no where. The gun doesn't cause the crimes, but if it wasn't so readily available some of these attempts would come to nought.

This has to be done sensibly, small bites; start with eliminating "No background check" sales , then go for oversize clips, something where you might get even kramarat and AH to agree. Then nibble at guns and rifles that automatically cock themselves for the next shot; no that should be later. We need to nibble away as long as we can get support, we will then get as much done as is acceptable to most people.

There is a problem of two groups within the population here, one for whom the gun is a blessing and one where it is a curse. It is a curse in the cities, and I see a conflict between the Preamble and the willful misreading by the SCOTUS of the 2nd Amendment of the constitution. Clearly, in the cities, the gun does the opposite of insuring domestic tranquility and promoting the general Welfare.

__________________
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#19
In reply to #18

Re: Gun Control

12/14/2012 10:30 PM

Stop feeding the trolls. :-/

Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Glen Mills, PA.
Posts: 2385
Good Answers: 114
#24
In reply to #19

Re: Gun Control

12/15/2012 12:12 AM

I don't understand those symbolic smilies, so if it changes the meaning of the words, hard luck. I jumped in because you and others legitimized the thread.

__________________
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#29
In reply to #24

Re: Gun Control

12/15/2012 9:05 AM

I totally understand and I deeply regret anything I wrote that has legitimized this thread.

Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brecksville, OH
Posts: 1596
Good Answers: 18
#21
In reply to #18

Re: Gun Control

12/14/2012 11:46 PM

I agree, especially that huge capacity clips should be outlawed. I also believe that semi-automatic weapons and manufacturers should be heavily fined if they make them available. The News on TV said the Glock used at the recent shootings had a 33 round clip. I can't believe that even law enforcement personnel need a clip that large if they are accurate at all. Smaller clips may not eliminate the problem, but it could limit the firepower and give people a better chance to get out of harms way.

__________________
"Consensus Science got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?" : Rephrase of Will Rogers Comment
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 688
Good Answers: 21
#20

Re: Gun Control

12/14/2012 10:45 PM

Years ago we use to have a system in place that took care of those of us who lets say were not quite right in the head. But, now it is not in society's interest to do this anymore, I beg to differ. We need to bring the mental hospitals back. We also need to be able to have law enforcement remove someone who is obviously not right. Tough call here, but what else are we going to do. Better to have someone in custody and mad, then dead and others along with them.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7883
Good Answers: 279
#25
In reply to #20

Re: Gun Control

12/15/2012 12:31 AM

OK, saying we bring them back; what criteria do you recommend for locking someone up in a mental ward? Specifically, where should the line be drawn, and who can adjust the line?

.

The reason I'm asking is because the power to lock people away based on a vague idea that they are 'not right (according to you) in the head', is extremely dangerous.

You aren't talking about someone who has broken a law, because we already have rules to lock those people away.

You aren't talking about people whose words or actions demonstrate they are a threat to themselves or others, because we already have rules to confine those people.

.

What is left is locking people away because the way they behave or appear, though not illegal or suggestive of bodily harm, is sufficiently different from your own to make you uncomfortable....

..unless I have misunderstood. I am certainly open to some alternative explanation. In fact I hope I am wrong and that you have some explanation that makes it clear your suggestion isn't just xenophobic zeal.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Glen Mills, PA.
Posts: 2385
Good Answers: 114
#27
In reply to #20

Re: Gun Control

12/15/2012 7:27 AM

You want to put away the large contingent of the military with mental disease from multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan? Show me the money?

I don't want an army of nutcase shrinks deciding if people need incarceration, according to them, nobody is normal, we all have problems. It is true, but it is normal to have some problems.

Much better to identify and treat those with early symptoms.

__________________
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: India
Posts: 1246
Good Answers: 34
#26

Re: Gun Control

12/15/2012 2:17 AM

I may not, I suppose, be allowed to express my views on how the great Americans want to govern themselves. Any premature inflicted death is not civil.

What a shame, that a country like the USA, can't/unwilling to find a workable solution to this omnipresent, avoidable menace for its citizens!

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - Old Salt Hobbies - CNC - New Member United States - US - Statue of Liberty - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Rosedale, Maryland USA
Posts: 5198
Good Answers: 266
#31

Re: Gun Control

12/15/2012 9:33 AM

A better question is to ask is what is going on in our schools and/or to our youth to cause them to resort to this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting

In looking through the list of school shootings world wide. There is one thing in common students shooting students. There is a problem there. Does gun control resolve the problem? NO just puts a band-aid on it.

Gun control just makes it seem like someone is doing something. What I don't like is when tragedies like this happen. Some people use it to talk gun control. These same concern citizens turn blind eye to the real problem.

A gun is a tool. It in itself does not take sides in good or evil. Man does that!

So instead of removing the tool we need to remove the root causes of the evil in man.

__________________
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a pretty, pristine body but rather to come sliding in sideways, all used up and exclaiming, "Wow, what a ride!"
Reply
4
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Red Hook, New York (Mid-Hudson River Valley)
Posts: 4364
Good Answers: 177
#32

Re: Gun Control

12/15/2012 9:41 AM

This is a politically charged issue and this forum isn't the place for it either.

But I do want to add that automatic weapons of any sort were not involved in the Sandy Hook whatsoever. It has been reported by the police that two pistols were used by the shooter, these being 9mm Glock and a Sig Sauer, both reputedly taken/stolen from Adam Lanza's now deceased mother...and turned on her. An AR-15 was recovered from the trunk of his Honda Civic. It was not used in the shootings.

An AR-15 is NOT a automatic weapon, nor is it an ASSAULT RIFLE. This terminology is what really Burns my Rice Krispies whenever I read or hear that term in the Lamestream Media. They get it wrong almost all of the time, and have no real inclination to really understand the differences in weapons types. Most often an 'assault rifle' is military & police only, and cannot be owned by civilians, unless you have a special BATF permit. Here we're talking about M-16's, M-4's, de-mil AK's, and MP5, etc etc. An AR-15, AR-10, and the like are semi-automatic rifles and are not capable of firing on automatic mode. They are only capable of firing one single round per corresponding single trigger pull, just like any other semi-automatic rifle, like those used by hunters and target shooters for decades.

If I hear again the term "GUN VIOLENCE" I'm going to scream!!!!

It's not the gun that kills, but the person. VIOLENCE IS VIOLENCE! Be it violence by a gun, baseball bat, knife, machete, hands, DIY bombs, or crashing an airplane into a building or your car into a crowded sidewalk. You get my drift (I hope)....

There has been an emerging pattern that has been occurring lately, and it is very disturbing: most of these mass shooters are young men (or kids), loners, and unable to effectively connect with others in society. Most have had a history of mental illness of one sort or another. They have fallen through the cracks.

Currently the problems are rooted in mental health issues, not firearms. Many states have almost eliminated mental health detention facilities and turned out the patients into group residential homes and their family's homes. Most skip or don't take their prescribed meds. By law, you cannot force them to take the meds. I know all about this because my wife, a licensed RN had worked in the County Jail Medical Unit for 8 years, followed working in the outpatient Mental Health facilities locally that the patients (who lived in group homes) visited every day.

Again, this is a mental health issue. A deeper root of the problems is what several here have described as the desensitizing of individuals by vilence video games, TV, and movies. Also, many problems crop up due to broken marriages and homes, and many many kids now days are "latch key kids" with no adult supervision when momma and papa are off working.

__________________
"Veni, Vidi, Vici"; hendiatris attributed to Gaius Julius Caesar, 47 B.C.
Reply Good Answer (Score 4)
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Glen Mills, PA.
Posts: 2385
Good Answers: 114
#37
In reply to #32

Re: Gun Control

12/15/2012 7:43 PM

I have to disagree on a couple of counts. If there is no gun in the hand, squeezing the trigger does not kill. There is a correlation between the availability of guns and murders by use of gun. The discussion was being discussed pretty well on merits, it is you who injected the political comment with, "Lamestream Media".

__________________
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 473
Good Answers: 13
#38
In reply to #32

Re: Gun Control

12/15/2012 9:14 PM

Hmmm... I get your drift but guns are way too easy to come by and drastically shift the advantage to the guy with the gun! Knives, bats, hands, etc are also dangerous but you have a much better chance of fending them off. A guy comes at me with a knife, chances are he's going home in a box! why?...because I'll fight for my life and surely get a few oppurtunities during the altercation to crush his wind pipe (maybe get a few cuts in the process). He comes at me with a gun, chances are I'm the one going home in a box.

The truth is if there were no guns available at all, the voilence may not necessarily be reduced but the outcome of the situations would be significantly different...far fewer fatalities.

If that kid walked into the classroom with a knife, all of the teachers present would have jumped him without thinking twice. Those children would have had the time to get away and still be here today. There may not have been any fatalities at all.

Truth is , guns don't cause the violence but they do facilitate the killing.

Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA, Florida
Posts: 1551
Good Answers: 125
#39
In reply to #38

Re: Gun Control

12/15/2012 11:35 PM

I gave you a GA because you are right(ish) about the outcome sans guns.

I am a gun enthusiast and will probably never give that up. I believe that people kill, guns do not. I believe that spoons are not the reason people get fat.

Consider however, guns are a mechanism for the sane and the insane. You speak about the insane.

If there were no guns, would the insane find another way to wreak havoc? Explosives, petrol bombs, acid bombs ?

Just my two cents.

__________________
An obstacle is something you see when you take your eyes off the goal.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7883
Good Answers: 279
#41
In reply to #39

Re: Gun Control

12/16/2012 3:14 AM

Dude! Genius!

The US needs spoon control laws!

.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Power-User
Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Kenya - Member - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Eldoret, Kenya
Posts: 141
Good Answers: 6
#33

Re: Gun Control

12/15/2012 6:12 PM

To avoid conflicting with the 2nd Amendment, guns should remain as available as they are.

However, ammo should be taxed exorbitantly! I am thinking an average cost of $100 per bullet.

__________________
Technology solves problems we didn't know existed, or didn't realise that they needed to be solved. Tinkering is therefore never pointless.
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#34
In reply to #33

Re: Gun Control

12/15/2012 6:24 PM

"One man with a gun can control 100 without one."

Vladimir Lenin

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7883
Good Answers: 279
#35
In reply to #33

Re: Gun Control

12/15/2012 6:44 PM

Nice idea, but remember: give credit where credit is due.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Reply
2
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA, Florida
Posts: 1551
Good Answers: 125
#36
In reply to #33

Re: Gun Control

12/15/2012 7:09 PM

And oddly enough the USA is the most freedom laced country in the world (except for New Zealand's freedom to make their own hooch, of course).

Coincidence...I think not.

Empower the population, and the Government has a measure of accountability to consider. It is hard to install a dictator when 70 million households are armed.

It's also difficult to overrun !!

__________________
An obstacle is something you see when you take your eyes off the goal.
Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Power-User
Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 287
Good Answers: 27
#40

Re: Gun Control

12/16/2012 2:58 AM

"It's not the heroin, PCP or meth that destroys lives, it's the people"

"It's not the availability of weapons-grade plutonium that allows terrorists to build nuclear bombs, it's the people"

C'mon gun-toters, get real; surely even you can accept that there are valid reasons why most reasonable societies impose control to access. The hypocrisy of this particular society is almost laughable if it weren't so tragic

__________________
Best regards, HeviiGuy
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7883
Good Answers: 279
#42
In reply to #40

Re: Gun Control

12/16/2012 3:42 AM

"It's not the heroin, PCP or meth that destroys lives, it's the people"

"It's not the availability of weapons-grade plutonium that allows terrorists to build nuclear bombs, it's the people"

...

You seem to have posted these statements, believing they are undeniably wrong and deserving of ridicule.

I think the statements are valid.

Let's start with weapons grade plutonium allowing terrorists to build nuclear bombs. I have to disagree strongly here. Knowledgeable effective people are definitely what allows any capable fission or fusion weapon to be built. It isn't the plutonium any more than it is the high explosives upon which production hinges.

.

PCP, Heroin, Meth: People are at fault here as well. If it were the drugs themselves that ruin lives, pretty much everyone who came in contact with the drugs would become addicted and have their life ruined.

As it turns out, the people that are affected are the same people who would also be likely to be affected by any number of other chemical addictions; cocaine, ibogaine, alcohol, nicotine, or MDA.

Certainly some substances are more pronounced in their effects, much as killing with a grenade launcher or sarin gas has a more pronounced effect than killing with a hunting rifle.

In both the case of drugs and the case of weapons, the cause of the problem is not the particular tool used, but the person using the tool.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Reply
Power-User
Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 287
Good Answers: 27
#43
In reply to #42

Re: Gun Control

12/16/2012 3:47 AM

And thus if we were to follow your reasoning, they should be made available to all, without restriction of any kind, correct?

__________________
Best regards, HeviiGuy
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7883
Good Answers: 279
#50
In reply to #43

Re: Gun Control

12/16/2012 2:42 PM

You have ascribed to me a type of reasoning I did not claim and to which I do not subscribe.

.

Just because someone do not accept your assertion that inanimate objects might be ultimately responsible for the actions of a human, does not mean that they want to make plutonium freely available to everyone.

Surely you can see there is a significant difference between these?

.

Additionally, your failure to distinguish between things that can reasonably be expected to have non-destructive utility and those things which cannot (plutonium for example) suggests you are not interested in discussing a solution; only in attempting to make derisive remarks which lead to further division.

.

So, no I would not want plutonium to be freely available.

I don't think meth, pcp, or heroin should be freely available, I don't think it should be illegal. If someone wants to put that in their own body, so be it. We haven't outlawed drinking bleach, and surely that is more harmful. Is drinking bleach still legal merely because there probably no euphoric sensation on the way down? Are we really punishing people just because the get a kick out of the way they do themselves in?

It isn't that I think doing those things is a good idea. It is that I think taking away someones freedom to choose for themselves what is good or bad (to do to themselves), is pompous and generally a worse idea.

You should be able to see why plutonium does not fit in that category and narcotics do.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Reply
Power-User
Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 287
Good Answers: 27
#70
In reply to #42

Re: Gun Control

12/17/2012 7:04 AM

Do you have children? Nieces, nephews? Grandchildren?

I'm sure that many of us here know somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody in the 'hood who would just love to discuss daddy's idea of gun control and free market economics with your kids

__________________
Best regards, HeviiGuy
Reply
2
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7883
Good Answers: 279
#83
In reply to #70

Re: Gun Control

12/17/2012 11:07 AM

I know what you were going for, but what you wrote barely makes sense.

.

Your comment appears to be meant to be an inflaming diversion away from the argument because you have nothing legitimate with which to respond. Still it is rather telling.

.

Look. It is obvious from your comment that you don't know and have never known anyone who lives somewhere you would call 'the hood'.

It is also completely clear that you consider someone who lives in 'the hood' to be something terrifying.

.

I don't harbor those sentiments. The prospect that I or one of my family would have a discussion with someone economically disadvantages compared to me and from a culture different from my own, is source of distress.

.

The funny thing is I don't think the reason I don't feel threatened by your threat is based on whether or not I am carrying.

.

Let me stop there and say that I do believe the advice you offer is very important ...for a certain group of people.

That group is one which you belong to: the group of people who harbor unreasonable fear of people from different backgrounds. I think you wise to counsel yourself and people like you to never own a gun.

In fact, how about you just eat with a spoon from now on. Sharp objects are not necessary for you to get sufficient calories.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
Fans of Old Computers - ZX-81 - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: 18N 65W o
Posts: 943
Good Answers: 26
#45

Re: Gun Control

12/16/2012 8:55 AM

Automatic weapons have been legally out of bounds for private US citizens since the '30's. That of course, never stopped the likes of Machine Gun Kelly et al.

A semi-automatic weapon was used in the horrendous incident in CT. In the environment as described by the media though, a muzzle loader or machete would have been sufficient.

I can't help but wonder why the Mother failed to properly secure the weapons? In addition, I wonder how the son procured Kevlar body armor without Mom's knowledge? The son had no job, so Mom must have provided the funds.

Second guessing, while making it easy to place blame, does nothing to prevent future situations. I doubt that anyone could have predicted the "straw that broke the camels back", or the shove that "pushed him over the cliff".

What a sad day for all involved.

Reply
4
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Red Hook, New York (Mid-Hudson River Valley)
Posts: 4364
Good Answers: 177
#46

Re: Gun Control

12/16/2012 9:02 AM

I think it is high time for some statistics and reality check for those members who are hell bent on abolishing firearms and gun-grabbing.....

Per www.edgersnyder.com/drunk-driving/drunk-driving-statistics.html

United States Drunk Driving Car Accident Statistics (2009)

  • Three in every ten Americans will be involved in an alcohol-related crash at some point in their lives.
  • Of fatal accidents in 2009, 32 percent involved alcohol-impaired drivers.
  • On average, one person died every 48 minutes in 2009 due to an alcohol-impaired driver.
  • In 2009, all 50 states, the District of Columbia, and Puerto Rico made it illegal to drive with a BAC of .08 or higher. Of the 10,839 people who died in an alcohol-related crash, 7,281 (67 percent) had drivers with BACs above the legal limit.
  • For fatal crashes occurring from midnight to 3 a.m., 66 percent involved alcohol-impaired driving.
  • On New Year's Day, 468 people were killed in car accidents. Alcohol-impaired driving contributed to 40 percent of them.
  • Fatal crashes involving alcohol-impaired drivers occurred four times more at night than during the day (37 percent versus 9 percent).
  • Of the drivers involved in fatal crashes, 30 percent of males had a BAC of .01+ and 25 percent had a BAC of .08+; 16 percent of women had a BAC of .01+ and 14 percent had a BAC of .08+.
  • Of people ages 21 to 24 involved in fatal crashes, 35 percent had a BAC above the legal limit.
  • In 2009, 14 percent of children ages 14 and younger killed in crashes died because of alcohol.
  • More than 181 children were killed due to drivers who were drunk.
  • Drivers with a BAC level of .08 or higher in fatal crashes were eight times more likely to have a prior conviction for driving while under the influence.
  • The most frequently recorded BAC level among drinking drivers in fatal crashes was .17, which is more than twice the legal limit.

Okay, who out there is willing to outlaw automobiles? Who is willing to prohibit consumption of any alcohol whatsoever and return to Prohibition? Hmmmm, I don't see many hands waving frantically out there in the crowd.....I didn't think so....

Per www.edgersnyder.com/car-accident/cell-phone/cell-phone-statistics.html

2011 Distracted Driving Statistics

Most adults who drive admit to engaging in distracted driving behaviors, according to a HealthDay poll from November 10-14, 2011. More than 2,800 American adults responded to the poll. Results showed the following statistics:

  • Approximately 86% of drivers said they ate or drank while driving at some point, and 57% said they do it "sometimes" or "often."
  • Over 1/3 of drivers (37%) have sent or received text messages while driving, and 18% said they do it regularly.
  • Forty-one percent of adult drivers have set or changed a GPS system while driving, and 21% do it "more frequently."
  • Many adult drivers (36%) have read a map while driving, and 10% do it "sometimes" or "often."
  • One in five drivers have combed or styled his or her hair while driving. One in ten does it regularly.
  • Have you ever seen a driver putting on makeup? Approximately 14% have done it once, and 7% do it frequently.
  • About 13% of adult drivers have surfed the Internet while driving.
  • Results of the poll showed that younger drivers were more likely to engage in distracted driving. Men were more likely to drive while drowsy, drive after drinking, read a map, use a GPS system, and use the Internet.
  • A large percentage of the people said they know distracted driving is dangerous, but do it anyway.

Driver Electronic Use in 2010

  • According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, the percentage of drivers who were using a cell phone (texting or manipulating it in some way) increased to 0.9% in 2010.
  • The percentage of drivers using a cell phone while holding it to their ears was 5% in 2010
  • The level of hand-held cell phone use was higher among female drivers than it was for male drivers.
  • Younger drivers ages 16 to 24 were more likely to use a hand-held cell phone.
  • More than three-quarters reported that they were likely to answer calls on all, most, or some trips while driving. They also said that they rarely consider traffic situations when deciding to use their cell phones.
  • There were 3,092 deaths in distraction-related accidents in 2010, but the number is likely much higher.
  • Most drivers said they are willing to answer a call or text while driving, but most of these same drivers said they would feel unsafe as a passenger in a car where the driver was sending or receiving text messages.

Texting While Driving Statistics

  • About 6,000 deaths and a half a million injuries are caused by distracted drivers every year.
  • While teenagers are texting, they spend about 10 percent of the time outside the driving lane they're supposed to be in.
  • Talking on a cell phone while driving can make a young driver's reaction time as slow as that of a 70-year-old.
  • Answering a text takes away your attention for about five seconds. That is enough time to travel the length of a football field.

Okay now, how many are willing to stop distracted driving? This means: not eating, not drinking, not using your cell phone in any way while driving. Somehow, I didn't think so. Let's be really honest about this, shall we?

Per http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded/expanded-homicide-data

Data collection

The Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program of the FBI collects supplementary homicide data that provides information regarding the age, sex, and race of the murder victim and offender; the type of weapon used; the relationship of the victim to the offender; and the circumstance surrounding the incident. Data gleaned from these supplemental data are provided in this section.

This section also includes information about justifiable homicide-certain willful killings that must be reported as justifiable or excusable. In the UCR Program, justifiable homicide is defined as and limited to:

  • The killing of a felon by a peace officer in the line of duty.
  • The killing of a felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen.

Because these killings are determined through law enforcement investigation to be justifiable, they are tabulated separately from murder and non-negligent manslaughter. Justifiable homicide information can be found in Expanded Homicide Data Table 14, "Justifiable Homicide, by Weapon, Law Enforcement, 2007-2011" and Expanded Homicide Data Table 15, "Justifiable Homicide, by Weapon, Private Citizen, 2007-2011."

Overview

  • Of the 12,664 murder victims in 2011 for which supplemental data were received, most (77.6 percent) were male. (Based on Expanded Homicide Data Table 1.)
  • Concerning murder victims for whom race was known, 50.0 percent were black, 46.0 percent were white, and 2.6 percent were of other races. Race was unknown for 175 victims. (Based on Expanded Homicide Data Table 2.)
  • Single victim/single offender situations accounted for 48.4 percent of all murders for which the UCR Program received supplemental data. (See Expanded Homicide Data Table 4.)
  • Of the offenders for whom gender was known, 89.3 percent were males. (Based on Expanded Homicide Data Table 3.)
  • Of the offenders for whom race was known, 52.4 percent were black, 45.2 percent were white, and 2.4 percent were of other races. The race was unknown for 4,077 offenders. (Based on Expanded Homicide Data Table 3.)
  • Of the homicides for which the FBI received weapons data, most (67.8 percent) involved the use of firearms. Handguns comprised 72.5 percent of the firearms used in murder and non-negligent manslaughter incidents in 2011. (Based on Expanded Homicide Data Table 8.)
  • In 2011, in incidents of murder for which the relationships of murder victims and offenders were known, 54.3 percent were killed by someone they knew (acquaintance, neighbor, friend, boyfriend, etc.); 24.8 percent of victims were slain by family members. The relationship of murder victims and offenders was unknown in 44.1 percent of murder and non-negligent manslaughter incidents in 2011. (Based on Expanded Homicide Data Table 10.)
  • Of the female murder victims for whom the relationships to their offenders were known, 36.5 percent were murdered by their husbands or boyfriends. (Based on Expanded Homicide Data Tables 2 and 10.)
  • Of the murders for which the circumstance surrounding the murder was known,
    42.9 percent of victims were murdered during arguments (including romantic triangles) in 2011. Felony circumstances (rape, robbery, burglary, etc.) accounted for 23.1 percent of murders. Circumstances were unknown for 38.0 percent of reported homicides. (Based on Expanded Homicide Data Table 11.)
  • Law enforcement reported 653 justifiable homicides in 2011. Of those, law enforcement officers justifiably killed 393 felons, and private citizens justifiably killed 260 people during the commission of a crime. (See Expanded Homicide Data Tables 14 and 15.)

Okay now, let us look at Expanded Homicide Table 8: "Of the homicides for which the FBI received weapons data, most (67.8 percent) involved the use of firearms. Handguns comprised 72.5 percent of the firearms used in murder and non-negligent manslaughter incidents in 2011. (Based on Expanded Homicide Data Table 8.) "

You will notice that 72.5% of homicides were committed w/ a handgun, the most regulated and licensed type of firearm. We already have enough laws governing the permitting of handguns. Nearly all of these current laws are NOT being enforced enough as it is. Why induce more gun laws that cannot be adequately enforced? BTW, ownership of semi-automatic rifles, bolt action rifles and shotguns are not usually regulated by the states, except in a very few cases. The remaining 27.5 % of homicides are committed by various means, including knives, strangulation etc etc. Are we to prohibit hands and knives as well to prevent murders?

VIOLENCE IS VIOLENCE, plain and simple as that. A gun is a tool. So are knives, bombs, broken beer bottles, and yes, even pillows to smother someone. If society is to eliminate murders of all types, and by all means, then you have to change the human animal......and eliminate the cancerous morals and degradation residing within all of us. Treat the root causes of violence, not the symptoms....a ban-aid approach to violence of any kind will never work. IF you listen following blindly to the ranting politicos without THINKING, then you've already are wearing shackles and giving up your personal freedoms.....once given up, where does it end?

As you will see above, many more lives are lost per year due to drunk driving and driver distractions, rather then to murder, by a large margin. Somehow all the anti-gun ranting overshadows the real root cause of death in our country, and even in the world. Get real, there will never be an Utopian society as long as human beings have an archaic reptilian brain stem in their noggin's.

I want to leave you a reminder of what happens when you surrender your personal liberties, as guaranteed under the US Constitution that our Founding Fathers forged long ago. i could have posted many more graphic depictions, but I will not do so for the sake of those that cannot stomach photographs of such acts of violence. We as a nation tend to forget where or personal freedoms originate from, and need to be reminded from time-to-time. We have collectively very short attention spans.

And for those of you who want to eliminate or circumvent the 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution, as well as destroy the US Bill of Rights, I present a photograph of what exactly can happen with there is no armed populace to stop petty dictators and the power hungry from coming to power. Read Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Minh, Pot Pol, Ida Amin, Saddam, Arafat, Iranian leaders, and many others throughout history. This is a disturbing photograph where the Red Chinese (ie, communists) executed a woman circa 1980:

http://11111118.home.news.cn/blog/a/0101000026A4068F281BADB6.html

__________________
"Veni, Vidi, Vici"; hendiatris attributed to Gaius Julius Caesar, 47 B.C.
Reply Good Answer (Score 4)
Anonymous Poster #2
#52
In reply to #46

Re: Gun Control

12/16/2012 4:13 PM

There are two reasons to own handguns and assault weapons, target shooting and killing people. I'm not distinguishing between murder, self defense and warfare; for my purpose there need be no difference.

No one drinks with the intent to kill by dui, not even an insane person.

While someone certainly may turn the ignition of a car with the intent to kill, there are far more legitimate reasons that someone owns a car.

You can spout all the statistics you want about crime, it won't change the basic fact that 20 children are dead through the use of guns.

The NRA, instead of pushing fear of gun control laws and promoting stupid laws like Florida's 'Stand Your Ground', law should get back to promoting gun safety.

When I was 12, I was an NRA member. My friends and I would shoot .22 rifles for target practice weekly. This was all under the auspices of an NRA group and instructor. The instructor was a complete ball-buster for safety. I still remember his "CEASE FIRE!" booming across the range. My target shooting abilities never went very far, but my take-away from that early NRA membership was a healthy respect for guns and gun safety. The only thing I've heard from the NRA lately has been fear-mongering that the 'libruls are gonna take away our gun rights!' WTF?

People need to be reminded that when they buy a gun for self defense, they run the risk of killing someone. Before buying they need to know that and to think about what their life may be like afterwards. Be it simply a guilty conscience or a prison sentence, their life will be different. And no one should buy a gun without having had the kind of training that I had, complete with a ball-busting range officer.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7883
Good Answers: 279
#53
In reply to #52

Re: Gun Control

12/16/2012 4:56 PM

'....There are two reasons to own handguns and assault weapons, target shooting and killing people....'

Dear Poster unwilling to associate their comments with their online persona:

While target shooting and killing people are certainly two reasons one might choose to own a handgun, are you suggesting those are the only two reasons? You seem to be making that suggestion.

If that is indeed your opinion, allow me to suggest some other reasons a person might choose to own handguns or assault weapons:

-Though there are guns more suited to the task, in practice some people own such weapons for hunting game. I knew a couple people in South Carolina who hunted dear with SKSs.

-Certain guns might be purchased as an investment.

-Still others buy guns as collector items, with little or no consideration of future monetary value.

-Guns may be purchased as a deterrent to being overrun by a tyrannical government. This is different than being owned to kill people in the same way that the US built up a nuclear arsenal, not for the purpose of exterminating everyone on the globe, but to deter a nuclear conflict.

-A person might even purchase a gun in an attempt to bolster their self image or the image they hope to project.

I'm not saying all of these are good reasons to own a gun, just that there are reasons beyond the two you list.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7883
Good Answers: 279
#55
In reply to #53

Re: Gun Control

12/16/2012 7:59 PM

Correction:

People in South Carolina do not (AFAIK) hunt dear (ole' anyone). Instead the people to which I refer were hunting deer.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA, Florida
Posts: 1551
Good Answers: 125
#58
In reply to #53

Re: Gun Control

12/16/2012 9:07 PM

Good post.

__________________
An obstacle is something you see when you take your eyes off the goal.
Reply
Guru
Fans of Old Computers - ZX-81 - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: 18N 65W o
Posts: 943
Good Answers: 26
#54
In reply to #52

Re: Gun Control

12/16/2012 7:44 PM

You sound as if the NRA is an entity unto itself. Funded by the uber rich to meet their own nefarious ends.

Nothing could be further from the truth. It is a collection of like minded, US Citizens with a common worthwhile goal. No different than any of the myriad of service clubs that dot the landscape.

Representing it as an independent entity makes good PR on the evening dose of Pravda, nothing trumps the motto, "I'm the NRA and I vote".

It would be interesting to watch the gun control folks swamp NRA membership rolls with useful idiots just as they do in elections. To paraphrase HRC "a vast useful idiot conspiracy".

Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 473
Good Answers: 13
#57
In reply to #46

Re: Gun Control

12/16/2012 8:32 PM

"... what exactly can happen with there is no armed populace to stop petty dictators and the power hungry from coming to power. Read Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Minh, Pot Pol, Ida Amin, Saddam, Arafat, Iranian leaders, and many others throughout history..."

Capn', keep in mind the 2nd Amendment came about over 200 yrs ago. The population was far less educated both intellectually and morally. There was a need for the people to bare arms because life was difficult, more or less survival based, and lawlessness was rampant. Things have changed in 200 yrs. The examples you provided don't apply to US and Canada anymore. We're not like those other countries and our governments would never allow those types of thing to happen in this day and age. Our countries don't have the kinds of leaders like the ones you mentioned. Our populations are well informed and our democratic system would not put those kinds of individuals into power (...right?). Those other countries also have yet to catch up to the moral standards of people like you and me.

I supposed in the 43 years I've been on this planet I've been fortunate enough to have never lived in fear and...never considered owning a gun or any other weapon for that matter.

Oh wait, there was that time when I was 16 and trained as a Ninja...throwing stars, swords and the outfit to boot!... (I've said too much)

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA, Florida
Posts: 1551
Good Answers: 125
#59
In reply to #57

Re: Gun Control

12/16/2012 9:19 PM

I wasn't here 200 years ago, but I'm pretty sure the population was far MORE educated morally...I think we have devolved in this area.

If you don't think life is survival based, move to LA or Detroit.

Our country is described by some as very badly informed and might declare our elections to be similar to American Idol.

43 years ? Well youngster, I was in the Navy, was on the nuclear weapons security force, and as a civilian recommend that all citizens own weapons...just me....

__________________
An obstacle is something you see when you take your eyes off the goal.
Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 473
Good Answers: 13
#60
In reply to #59

Re: Gun Control

12/16/2012 10:01 PM

"I wasn't here 200 years ago, but I'm pretty sure the population was far MORE educated morally...I think we have devolved in this area"

Really?? An educated population 200yrs ago huh?? So your saying there was nothing wrong with slavery, we should all still be racist towards everyone who isn't white, women should only be in the kitchen and raising children, we should fear and hate other cultures, discard the mentally handicap, the list goes on. All of this was a result of an educated population??...Good grief. How old are you??

"If you don't think life is survival based, move to LA or Detroit."

Every city has bad areas and you know what I meant by survival...subsistence living!

"Our country is described by some as very badly informed and might declare our elections to be similar to American Idol."

I didn't say it was perfect but our governments have a moral compass that others lack. Our governments and military would never attack and massacre it's own people like what happens in countries like Syria for example.

Well oldster...the floor is yours!

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7883
Good Answers: 279
#65
In reply to #60

Re: Gun Control

12/17/2012 1:36 AM

Whether or not the population is better educated now than 200 years ago is not that clear.

There are a couple problems with the idea that social progress indicates a better educated or even better morally educated population now than before the progress.

What constitutes moral behavior has consistently changed through time. It certainly appears to us that we are morally superior to those moral midgets of the past, but it won't be long before we are looked at as the group whose actions were morally incomprehensible.

Another problem with associating social progress with the idea that today's population is better educated morally or otherwise, is that most of current population has had nothing to do with the improvements. People 200 years ago were actively struggling with those ideas and it ultimately lead to change.

I'm not so sure that the current population could spring up out of their apathy to effect much change. I certainly don't see anyone outraged, and there certainly have been things to be outraged about.

I'm not even so certain that a strong majority of the white male population would vote to maintain the advances in racial and sexual equality. I am a white male and I would certainly vote to support the advance made so far, but I also believe there is a large contingent out there that wouldn't.

.

When debating the level of understanding among the general public, one informative thing to consider how many people hold ideas that put their government in a positive light, yet the ideas are not at all based in fact:

.

Someone recently just claimed ,

'.... Our governments and military would never attack and massacre it's own people....'

...when in fact the government has been busy passing laws to make facilitate that very act. Moreover, suggesting that the US government would never attack and massacre its own, requires one to actively ignore specific example from not so recent history right up to the present.

This is still the country in which I choose to live, and I believe we can make positive changes. But hold no delusions about our record of behaving morally. We are by no means angels.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22207
Good Answers: 402
#73
In reply to #65

Re: Gun Control

12/17/2012 8:58 AM

You did hit on something, and I like to make clear and that is social programs does not necessary equate to social progress. imo

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7883
Good Answers: 279
#122
In reply to #73

Re: Gun Control

12/17/2012 8:56 PM

I'll agree with that.

Similarly, while the stated goal of affirmative action may be to be to prevent discrimination based on 'color, religion, sex or national origin', it has institutionalized viewing those groups as different and treating those groups differently.

It has legitimized as 'just' the act of adjusting evaluation and selection based on the very criteria for which it seeks to prevent discrimination.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Fans of Old Computers - TRS-80 - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - Hazmat - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - Fish On! United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Detroit MI, USA
Posts: 2497
Good Answers: 269
#71
In reply to #59

Re: Gun Control

12/17/2012 8:26 AM

Are you saying that it's kill or be killed in L.A. or here in Detroit?

__________________
How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life. --CAPTAIN KIRK, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA, Florida
Posts: 1551
Good Answers: 125
#86
In reply to #71

Re: Gun Control

12/17/2012 1:18 PM

In some cases it might come to that.

I believe one should maintain some sort of weapon in the home in order to defend their family.

If that weapon is a pump shotgun, the mere sound of the pump will cause most to flee. A home with a pump shotgun is not exactly low hanging fruit.

In the larger, or crime ridden cities, I would say it's an imperative.

__________________
An obstacle is something you see when you take your eyes off the goal.
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Fans of Old Computers - TRS-80 - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - Hazmat - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - Fish On! United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Detroit MI, USA
Posts: 2497
Good Answers: 269
#88
In reply to #86

Re: Gun Control

12/17/2012 1:38 PM

I am all for owning guns, I have quite a few. This is off topic but I find it funny how many people talk about how bad Detroit is that really don't have a clue. It has it's issues like any major city, but in the 46 years I have lived, worked, or played in Detroit, I have never had an issue. I go downtown to the theater district regularly at night, no issues. I truly beleive if don't present yourself as an easy target, you won't be an easy target. And yes, I do have a Michigan CPL, and I carry most of time I am down there, but never once have I thought I was going to need it. I have had issues in the suburbs, but not the city itself.

__________________
How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life. --CAPTAIN KIRK, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA, Florida
Posts: 1551
Good Answers: 125
#97
In reply to #88

Re: Gun Control

12/17/2012 3:52 PM

I am afraid that many of your fellow Detroiters agree with me.

__________________
An obstacle is something you see when you take your eyes off the goal.
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Red Hook, New York (Mid-Hudson River Valley)
Posts: 4364
Good Answers: 177
#62
In reply to #57

Re: Gun Control

12/16/2012 11:35 PM

And all of this argument coming from a Canadian, who is not protected by the US Constitution's 2nd Amendment......

Sorry pal, no offense to you or Canada, but I might add:

I have served my country for 14 years in the US Armed Forces (US Army Rangers) and have been all around the world, most of which I cannot discuss nor disclose the details about. I have seen what happens to a country's populace when they are not allowed to own firearms. Usually Tin Hat power hungry dictators kill them off by the scores because they cannot adequately fight back their oppressors.

The list of the countries where I've seen this happen is as long as my arm, and would surprise many here.

And for everybody's information, did everyone forget the lunatic Chinese guy who killed 22 school kids with just a knife not so long a go? Yeah, I bet a lot of you gun grabbers conveniently forgot that fact, didn't you huh? He didn't need a firearm of any sort to carry out his massacre of innocents. I have personally seen such things in Asia, Africa, Central and South America....especially where the machete rules. Ever seen a person hacked apart? I have, and you live with those images for the rest for your life, and if you're lucky, you can talk to your wife a very little bit about what you witnessed long ago some late night after you wake up with the night terrors.

No one will ever convince me the need for Americans to be disarmed. It'll be over my dead body when that day arrives.....

__________________
"Veni, Vidi, Vici"; hendiatris attributed to Gaius Julius Caesar, 47 B.C.
Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 473
Good Answers: 13
#66
In reply to #62

Re: Gun Control

12/17/2012 1:36 AM

"And all of this argument coming from a Canadian, who is not protected by the US Constitution's 2nd Amendment......"

Your 2nd Amendment didn't protect anybody. It allowed a mother of a psychopath to own guns which directly resulted in the death of 20 children. Try taking about your precious amendment with the families of the victims.

This is going nowhere... exactly where I expected it to.

Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#68
In reply to #66

Re: Gun Control

12/17/2012 6:42 AM

You wrote, This is going nowhere... exactly where I expected it to."

That is because you are not getting positive reinforcement for your point of view.

Instead, you are getting a number of responses that oppose your line of thinking. You are convinced your point of view is right to the point where you have not even considered any other alternatives, incorrectly quoted responses, and provided generalized counterclaims that really do not address the specific points of the arguments others are making.

The reason its going nowhere is that you have not taken into account that every society is different and does not operate on the same set issues, morals, and beliefs that you surrounded by and therefore has a unique set of problems.

And, the predictability you speak of is either due to your knowledge of the above or just dumb luck.

Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Red Hook, New York (Mid-Hudson River Valley)
Posts: 4364
Good Answers: 177
#74
In reply to #68

Re: Gun Control

12/17/2012 9:03 AM

I agree with AH 150% on his assessment. BRAVO!

Me thinks Terraguy watched too much national Lamestream News programming that only offers a very limited viewpoint on this important topic of discussion.

__________________
"Veni, Vidi, Vici"; hendiatris attributed to Gaius Julius Caesar, 47 B.C.
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22207
Good Answers: 402
#75
In reply to #68

Re: Gun Control

12/17/2012 9:07 AM

That is very good response.

It's like someone saying "We have to reach across the aisle", yet the one saying it, expects the other to do it.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Reply
Guru
Fans of Old Computers - ZX-81 - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: 18N 65W o
Posts: 943
Good Answers: 26
#80
In reply to #68

Re: Gun Control

12/17/2012 9:47 AM

Mr Truth seems to be a "don't let a crises go to waste", "bump in the road", and "not optimal" type of guy. There is little to no hope for an idea that doesn't fit the current narrative.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7883
Good Answers: 279
#84
In reply to #80

Re: Gun Control

12/17/2012 11:12 AM

'.....Mr Truth seems to be a "don't let a crises go to waste", "bump in the road", and "not optimal" type of guy......'

1. Who are you talking about?

2. What are you saying?

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Reply
Guru
Fans of Old Computers - ZX-81 - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: 18N 65W o
Posts: 943
Good Answers: 26
#92
In reply to #84

Re: Gun Control

12/17/2012 2:41 PM

I apologize; not Truth but Teraman

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7883
Good Answers: 279
#106
In reply to #92

Re: Gun Control

12/17/2012 6:07 PM

Accepted....not that an apology was needed.

If you have a moment, I'm still in the dark and curious about the references you made...could you elucidate?

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Reply
Associate

Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 53
Good Answers: 2
#149
In reply to #68

Re: Gun Control

12/19/2012 1:40 AM

Anonymous, you're my HERO!

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Red Hook, New York (Mid-Hudson River Valley)
Posts: 4364
Good Answers: 177
#47

Re: Gun Control

12/16/2012 9:48 AM

Some of you may remember this one moment long ago in 1969, when Red read the 'Pledge of Allegiance' on his show. I do. I was 11 years old at the time, and my dad had just returned from his 2nd Tour of duty from South Viet Nam, having endured and survived the Tet Offensive the year before.

We, as a nation, need to keep these principles alive, otherwise we are doomed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZBTyTWOZCM&feature=share

__________________
"Veni, Vidi, Vici"; hendiatris attributed to Gaius Julius Caesar, 47 B.C.
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22207
Good Answers: 402
#48
In reply to #47

Re: Gun Control

12/16/2012 12:37 PM

I remember, I loved Red. And this was moving even as a kid. The next person that moved me was like this was Ronald Reagan.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Fans of Old Computers - TRS-80 - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - Hazmat - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - Fish On! United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Detroit MI, USA
Posts: 2497
Good Answers: 269
#49

Re: Gun Control

12/16/2012 12:56 PM

Guns don't kill people, people kill people. PERIOD! Gun control will not work, crazies will still get them, if they don't, they will find another way to kill people. Take away guns, they will kill with bow and arrows, take away bows and arrows, they will kill with spears, take away spears, they will kill with knives and swords, take away knives and swords, they will use sticks and stones. Sounds like a history of weapons lesson. The answer is to fix society, identify the mentally sick, help them. All these tragedies can't be blamed on guns or video games, etc, the perpetrators were deranged, mentally ill. You don't need a gun to kill a lot of people, a 5gal gas can and a lighter will work, poisoning air supply, drinks, food or medication has been used. Almost anything can be used to massacre other people. I am not sure if it is possible, but our society must be fixed.

__________________
How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life. --CAPTAIN KIRK, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Red Hook, New York (Mid-Hudson River Valley)
Posts: 4364
Good Answers: 177
#56
In reply to #49

Re: Gun Control

12/16/2012 8:06 PM

Amen brother, amen.....

__________________
"Veni, Vidi, Vici"; hendiatris attributed to Gaius Julius Caesar, 47 B.C.
Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maritimes
Posts: 264
Good Answers: 2
#61

Re: Gun Control

12/16/2012 10:29 PM

Hey guys, if the second ammendment is all about citizen-soldiers defending themselves from the runaway "state "then perhaps there has been a lot of escalation on BOTH SIDES in the good ole USA. We have police officers who routinely dress up like ROBOCOP and hunters who are caricatures of RAMBO. The whole thing makes no more sense than mutually assured destruction did during the cold war.

If everyone is waiting until the government becomes too outrageous in its behavior, then I ask, who is going to declare the start of the insurrection and what outrage will provoke it?

Taxing our unborn grandchildren hasn't triggered it! That would be called taxation without representation. It led to rebellion before. But it won't this time and we all know it. We should reasonably expect the odd maladjusted individual to express their frustrations a little more than the rest of us however, and 20 babies just paid the price of THAT.

If the status quo is so wonderful then this will continue to be the occasional price that we pay. This is directly analogous to the "collateral damage" caused to mourning non-combatants when a drone is dropped into a funeral in Pakistan. Just part of the price we pay for feeling "secure"... I think of it as HUMAN SACRIFICE of the innocent.

Can anyone tell me where the unsubscribe button is for this thread...it blows!

__________________
Out in a Bowt
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Red Hook, New York (Mid-Hudson River Valley)
Posts: 4364
Good Answers: 177
#63
In reply to #61

Re: Gun Control

12/16/2012 11:39 PM

It if blows snowboy, then why the rant?

If you don't like, leave it....

__________________
"Veni, Vidi, Vici"; hendiatris attributed to Gaius Julius Caesar, 47 B.C.
Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maritimes
Posts: 264
Good Answers: 2
#64
In reply to #63

Re: Gun Control

12/17/2012 1:10 AM

Hi Capt Moosie - we see what we expect to see. Most of this thread is composed of rants, and btw, I really enjoyed the avalanche of auto-death stats.

I would LIKE to leave it...looking for unsubscribe button....hmmm

regards,

__________________
Out in a Bowt
Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#69
In reply to #64

Re: Gun Control

12/17/2012 6:47 AM

Select the yellow "X Updated Discussions" button on the top right of this page.

The next page has a list of subscribed discussions that are active. Check or select the discussion you wish to unsubscribe to.

Now, go to the bottom of that same page and select the button that says "Unsubscribe".

Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7883
Good Answers: 279
#67
In reply to #61

Re: Gun Control

12/17/2012 1:45 AM

'.... going to declare the start of the insurrection and what outrage will provoke it? Taxing our unborn grandchildren hasn't....'

Unborn grandchildren have a difficult time mobilizing or even holding weapons in a threatening way. They are also likely to run into problems attempting to procure firearms.

I hold slightly less hope for unborn grandchildren leading the insurrection than I hold for the current populace overcoming their apathy and beginning the insurrection.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Reply
2
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Red Hook, New York (Mid-Hudson River Valley)
Posts: 4364
Good Answers: 177
#72

Re: Gun Control

12/17/2012 8:48 AM

I would like to share an article that appeared yesterday regarding mental illness and kids, and how it has affected a mother who has a son so afflicted. I can understand her plight. I too have been dealing with this issue on a personal level here. You see, both of my Step-kids fall under the Autistic spectrum. I'll also share with you some things about living with a loved one afflicted with a mental illness or disorder.....

Stephen, now 22, is moderately afflicted with Autism as well as other mental disorders. He is a very tall and strong kid...doesn't know his own strength and is largely immune to pain. He has in the past yanked-out about half of his teeth with his fingers.....yeah, that's how immune he is to feeling pain. He now lives in at a special school for Autism several hours drive here. I dread his visiting us every few months, anticipating a fit of rage occurring. Next time he does it, I don't know IF I can stop him from doing irreparable damage. I may have to shoot him, God forbid. His problems started around the age of 12~13 at the onset of puberty. He'd snap at a moment's notice without warning. He was a handful, to say the least. On three occasions he became very violent. Each time, I had to call the police, and they'd subdue him and bring him to the ,local hospital to hold him in the mental illness ward for no less than 3 days each time. the 3rd and last time was the worse. He shattered a large wall mirror, took one of the broken glass shards and pinned my wife against the entertainment center in our living room, and proceeded to try to stab her with the shard. Only my Army training prepared me for pulling him off of my wife. I had to pin him to the floor while avoid getting stabbed with the glass shard. Then I had to wrestle it away from him, nearly breaking his arm doing so. Thank God my wife was okay and was able to call 911 after I pleaded with her repeatedly to do so. At first she didn't want to, but we didn't have any choice but to have Stephen arrested......all as I lay there pinning him to the floor as he bit me severely over and over again. At times I had to punch him in the chest and arms to get him to stop the biting. You cannot even imagine what a severe bite feels like. Several bites took a lot of stitches to close-up in the ER.

Now my step-Daughter, now age 19, has a Asberger's Disease, and is lesser affected, but she too can fly into a rage at the drop of a hat. She's so far she's manageable when she takes her meds. And she still lives with us. Someday after she graduates from high school special education program she'll have to be placed in a group home.

Why am I bringing this all up. First, I want you to understand the real issues here in our society, and that is mental health, not the issue of guns. A huge hurtle for parents of kids with mental illness is that most health insurance does not cover medical expenses to treat these kids. Unless you can get them covered under Social Security Medicare, then everything is out of pocket expenses. It can drain a family's bank accounts very quickly.

http://now.msn.com/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother-says-mom-of-mentally-ill-son

__________________
"Veni, Vidi, Vici"; hendiatris attributed to Gaius Julius Caesar, 47 B.C.
Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#76
In reply to #72

Re: Gun Control

12/17/2012 9:16 AM

Your family is in our thoughts and prayers.

Many families silently suffer those unspeakable horrors. Yours is particularly heartbreaking to hear.

Reply
Reply to Forum Thread Page 1 of 2: « First 1 2 Next > Last »
Interested in this discussion?
You can "subscribe" to this discussion to be notified of new comments.
Click on the Subscribe menu at the top of the page.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Ace Boeringa (1); agua_doc (1); altennant (1); Anonymous Hero (15); Anonymous Poster (1); bett4haze (1); Bob Sullivan (1); BoltIntegrity (6); CaptMoosie (30); Del the cat (1); fixitorelse (1); Fredski (3); Joshi (1); JPool (4); JWthetech (4); kramarat (9); lyn (8); nfhiggs (6); ozzb (1); passingtongreen (7); phoenix911 (25); rakesh_semwal (1); snowboy (4); Tank Circuit (2); tcmtech (1); TerraMan (9); truth is not a compromise (37); Werseemse (1); WJMFIRE (11)

Previous in Forum: Science Discovers the Meaning Of Life   Next in Forum: Who or What Lit the Fuse

Advertisement