Permanent Magnet Generators 65 RPM

You've gone through this much manufacturing and fabrication and you have no idea how to analyze your data and which data is important. First, your rotor is spinning 10% faster than it should to give you a 50 Hz waveform. Second, you could solve your comprehension problem by utilizing Maxwell's equations. Easier will be to just use Faraday's law of induction to see what your problem is. I am certain that you will find that the change in magnetic field strength that is cutting through your wires is not what you expected. You do not mention anything about the magnetic field strength, what you expect the change in flux to be, how you calculated what any of these magnetic attributes should be. I also see a lot of metal in this design. All of the ferromagnetic material around each magnet will significantly change the field strength inside the gap where your wires cross. Depending on what material you are using to focus your magnetic field into your gap you could also saturate that core material and thus again reduce the field strength in the gap you anticipate producing. I suspect this is where you have mislead yourself.

Good Luck

It always amazes me how many people spend piles of time and money to build these 'brake rotor' type PM alternators for AE experiments and not one ever comes close to it's hoped for theoretical output.

In fact for the money spent and the realistic efficiency they get from them most would have been far better of just buying a good inline planetary gearbox of the proper ratio and had coupled it to a properly sized AC generator or PM servo motor and had used that instead.

Given your pictures and list of materials I would venture to guess you have at least $2500 in materials alone tied up in this design not including labor for the machining work and assembly.

So I'm guessing you've seen or at least know something of this contraption. I presume that this gizmo is a variation of an over unity device.

I am also amazed how much time, effort and money some people will spend building questionable devices. Particularly when they don't understand 19th century science.

Wind generator designs on other forums I used to hang out with actually so sadly no over unity.

They always want to get that last watt out of their "super precision high efficiency blades" at any cost by coupling them a home built generator that is lucky to top 40 - 50% efficiency on a very good build design which very few can achieve with simple fabrication methods.

It usually starts with wanting to run too small of a blade set at far too low of speed in too light of wind coupled to a home build generator of highly questionable quality.

But it's all about efficiency you know so dam the applied math and realistic physics limits and the fact that so few others ever make anywhere close to what they expect!

Kinda why I dropped out of those forums. Show off a home built Grid Tie inverter design that most anyone can build out of an old battery charger and $25 worth of Radio Shack parts and you get nailed to cross by the safety brigade!

So this is likely not another over unity attempt.

The one thing I can see that I do not like in the design, no core material inside any of the coils. I realize that eddy currents in this core will "rob" some power but focusing all of the flux changes through the area inside each coil seems like a good idea. Without knowing the magnetic permeability of any of the metals used, nor the field strength of any of the permanent magnets it is anybodies guess what the magnetic field pattern is supposed to be.

so you prefer people don't learn at all. Not everybody has the luxury to get in the big school, some of us need to learn for us self. I am not trying to punch you, just pointing out some fact...

How do you jump to that conclusion? I and most people here want people to learn. This device shows that the fabricator has learned some sophisticated fabrication techniques. If they provide us the details of their analysis then we may be able to help. I am certain that it is their analysis is flawed somewhere. The flaw could be anywhere from having weak (unknown field strength) permanent magnets, to an arithmetic error (we're all human here), not accounting for mechanical energy losses to fundamental misunderstanding of physics.

What makes you so sure I haven't spent years of my life playing with wind power and didn't learn this all myself once?

One of my many wind generator experiments I have done.

You should not take such remarks into consideration. A bad but often noticed habit is to criticize without knowing what the other did in his life and why he had a reaction or gave an opinion or made a suggestion.

According to psychological research people estimate other taking themselves as reference.

In fact about 10 to 12 years ago I was involved in a project about wind power harvest for which a similar generator was designed build and tested. Unfortunately the designer had as only goal to beat Betz law and neglected all constructive opinions so that the project was a failure.

I don't mind it so much either way. I learned my knowledge the hard way as well.

When it comes to home made generators I beat that dead dog too many times and never once got it to bark the way I wanted.

Factory built second hand servo motors with gear boxes or direct drive has beaten everyone hands down on performance durability efficiency and money spent. Heck to be honest a good 6:1 PTO reducer from a scrapped out Briggs and Straton or other similar lawn and garden engine with a home brew adapter plate to fit it to a common DC generator or alternator from an old vehicle or piece of farm equipment still beats most well designed brake rotor type DIY generator designs in the end and I would consider that to be on the low end of the designs.

Now for blades on the other hand I have yet to find a good set of factory made ones that are worth a crap. Sorry but that's where from my experience oddly enough I have been able to get far better results and durability from an old 2" x 6", a band saw, belt sander, a pencil and ruler, a piece of string, and a bit of good old fashioned wood working patience. (6' dia and tip speeds that can break the sound barrier when running unloaded in high winds without fail that last for years at a time!)

Granted they may not be pushing the theoretical edge of the Betz limit but at least I don't spend a few hundred dollars to make 10 KWH or less of electrical power before they fly apart or crash on the first slightly gusty day due to sloppy factory fabrication practices or outright lame design issues. (Anymore.)

The thing is I admire most people playing with wind power as a hobby and learning experience. What I don't get is the continual process of trying to make a poor design work that's been beat to death with limited favorable results (Brake rotor generators) when there are other options that can do the needed jobs far cheaper, more efficiently, and more reliably out there if the builders are willing to accept a slightly different design criteria in the initial planning and design stage.

just to be clear, i never meant any disrespect. i value your input here on CR4. it is just when i spot the underlying sarcasm toward the noobs ( just like myself ) from more experienced people like your self. then it just stroke me the wrong way. Often people are just theorising som idea, not like we are gonna electrocute us the next moment, and the big boys almost call us stupid. It is just not nice. And also you have to understand and respect, we are not all an English speaking, CR4 is a international forum, and it is not always easy for all of us to put to gather the right set of words in the sentence, so often people are misunderstood.

I just wanted to tell you why i did say what i did. No disrespect intended...

We need to De Trolling the internet and special CR4. And if anyone is able to do so then it is a bunch of engineers... i think...

If you want an opinion pictures are not enough since you do not show dimensions. There are several questions: how are your magnets magnetized, how are your magnets placed, is any iron part behind the coils, which is the distance between iron core of coils (if any) and magnets and the list is not finished.

The best would be you send the drawings with dimensions and some indications for used materials and then may be one will take the time to give you a hint.

At first view and without any pretension to be right I presume that due to the magnets relative position and the distance to the other side you have a very low magnetic field through your coils due to magnetic parallel path with lower resistance.

Have you not made any computation before jumping into manufacturing ? Can you show your computations ?

/!\/!\/!\ im just interested what you guys do here - i'm not NG-neer /!\/!\/!\

90pm:48ic ?RPM:60s to produce 3xphases 120deg of 400V

we assume ::

since 90=3=30 & 48:3=16-phases it's 3-16-phase cycles per turn ???
30:6phz=5 3-phase AC cycles per 3-rth of turn 16 doesnot idiv 6 !!!

16-phases can be overlap wired if so commutated (a lot of sparkling - i dont think so)

retry assume no.2::

48:6phz = 8x chording /// since we hve 15:8 = 15 6-60°phase
as (L1,-L3,L2,-L1,L3,-L2) cycles per turn we have that very 15 cycles per turn
50Hz(cps)=3000cpm and 3kcpm:15= 200RPM
if you wire ⌂120° as (L1,L2,L3) you run 2x slower 100RPM

if there's some tricky wireing::

then i donno

here we go 6x 8-phase dummy
phases in real = i donno 6V/1A 3V/2A 2V/3A or 1V/6A
i only know the pulse TF-s merege up in-phase for whatsoever coil assignment

? or 16/8/4/2/1 x exotic(4me) wireing 3/6/12/24/48-phase

Covering your last three posts,

What.......?

BTW feel free to use a keyboard and don't get conservative on the key usage.

i donno anything about AC generators
what i know is that when you apply the
180° phase difference to a 3-ple coil like
A[φ_A=0°]-(((()-B[φ_B=x]-(((()-C[φ_C=y]-(((()-D[φ_D=180°]
then the (x,y) tend to be that 180° also
(( the L being around 10µ..1mH))
(altough the internet suggests φ_B=60°,φ_C=120°
- the parameter examined is voltage ? maybe i applied too little current )

but this thing worked (though there are a stimulator circuit behind)

Relating to posts 17 and 18,

Again.......What.....?

What exactly are us common people supposed to be getting from your pictures and cryptic formulas anyway?

Is this some sort of OU device?

If so why does the thing with the LED's have a battery pack on it then?

thanks that looks nice i am gonna try this connections and i hope that there be a good result.

i donno how much your willing to play here
whats the story of your generator

my recalls are from place they tested alike in shed southern elevation drop behind (SSSW from shed) there were some rails

a technican (brains) 45yo + 2 younger dudes geographically apx. between India Laos (maybe eastern india)

- i always tested stuff when spirit - might be some old prj. (muhahaa)

Perhaps this is a variant of an Adams or Muller motor/generator. Both of these devices are described here, around page 14 +/-, with the number of magnets not equaling the number of coils, and yes, they are over unity devices.

Anyone proposing FREE ENERGY devises should have their credential double checked.

It looks like nice machine work and not being a perm. mag expert --the problem may be your steel rotors-- look up alternator conversions on you tube and also look up make a wind generator from a Fisher Paykel (AU / NZ Brand) washing machine --they are all non magnetic and produce high voltage at reasonable RPM

Good Luck

Expat07

Thanks to all freinds with their answers ,we really appericiate your comments,

that is true that we are not electric engineers we build some wind towers which directly runs four hand pumps mechanically to take water from deep wells for the farmers you know that in Afghanistan we dont have good electricity in our capital in whole of our contry we have about 40 percent electirity in majur provinces now we wanted to make a generator with low rpm just to run a three phase deep well pumps we build a smaller genrator it worked well with 300 rpm 1 kw its good but this we wanted to make bigger one with lower rpm by help of a software whicm make calculations but it come somthing else tommorrow i am gonna add some more detail and pictures of our wind tower design ,

thanks agian from all

regards ali

The biggest issue I see is the large mismatch between the number of magnets and the number of coils you have.

48 and 90 do not divide out right and no mater how you configure it they never will.

For a 90 pole rotor assembly configured in a (N S N S N S ....) pattern you would need to have 90 coils per phase or you will never get a proper phasing match between your coils and magnets.

Same with doing a double step magnet configuration of (N N S S N N S S ....) You would need to have 45 coils per phase but then you end up with a odd number of coils and that again doesn't work. Everything has to work out to be even numbers of coils and matching magnetic poles.

Also given that you are running two PM rotors facing each other each rotors magnets need to face ones of the opposite polarity to get the maximum magnetic flux across each coil.

Lastly for a true three phase design you will need to have three sets of coils overlapping each other by one third of the distance between each of the magnets centers.

After looking at your pictures in detail I do have to say you do nice fabrication work and once you do get your magnet to coil ratios and pole orientations correct you will likely have one of the better constructed units of this design!

those magnets cost a fortune

aligning the wire of the coils as that of shown indicates an old school electrican

there are certain "metaphor rules" - i don't know about -- these let you virtually check the "health" of your desing - something like ??? if the "dog" meets a "granpa" - ((sh-t result)) - as i said i donno - the behind the yellow box (not shown is a not finished dev. part i sudggest) -- i might be totally wrong remembering some others stuff (that looked alike)

http://ency.cl/Magneto_(generator)#Wind_turbines -- (personal interest studies) sounds like here

http://www.rexresearch.com/markovic/atree.htm -- interesting co-find

ok what was sought was a phase harmonics balancer - that must deal with excessive power peaks - i can't find such cirquit ... yet -- enables 3-phase Gen to run efficiently (got enough of it for today :p)

"A[φ_A=0°]-(((()-B[φ_B=x]-(((()-C[φ_C=y]-(((()-D[φ_D=180°]

then the (x,y) tend to be that 180° also(( the L being around 10µ..1mH))(altough the internet suggests φ_B=60°,φ_C=120°"
"- i remember (from spirit travel)""don't think i remeber it in specific how what and where (spirit see pure time - if there's time loops through inside the time it can't see the logic of such go)"
"- i always tested stuff when spirit - might be some old prj. (muhahaa)"
"these let you virtually check the "health" of your desing - something like ??? if the "dog" meets a "granpa" - "
"the behind the yellow box (not shown is a not finished dev. part i sudggest) -- i might be totally wrong remembering some others stuff (that looked alike)"

Okay I see now. You are stoned out of your gourd and all of this comes from a alternate reality that only makes sense to you when you are lit like a Christmas tree. That explains a whole lot more.
I would have put these quotes in better context if I could have but I really couldn't find any context that they fit into.

Ooookay fine, if you say so.

Dear ci139,

I read with great attention ALLLLLL your writings I am deeply impressed by the depth of your thoughts and consider that we are at CR4 not at all at your level.

I suggest you find another place with people able to understand and appreciate your text and its idea contend.

It is for you a time loss to still try to bring us your thoughts we will not be able to get your point since we are simple engineers and not plane high enough.

You are not the first who got the point and after trying very hard to bring us at his level throw the sponge. Do the same it will be better for all but first for you since your texts are in fact very funny and show a disturbed way of thinling at least measured with normal units.

i dont get your point, Sir.

i started (my 1-st reply in this very thread) by mentioning that i'll likely be off the track here

+ what if their 90:48 is correct - you can string 3x16 coils !perhaps! so that the wires and structure generate less heat - well i donno that (what the exotic stands for)

and i brought 2 practical input about AC -phases -- ???? what level ???? what depth

you just have such a slow reaction i thought i "kick the stone rolling"

+ i agree that how you interpret the seafloor physiogaphy from Jappan to Philippines is ... voluntary - not a must (theres also no levels - a simple "find similarities" on 2 pictures ... (((WTH))))

"+ what if their 90:48 is correct - you can string 3x16 coils !perhaps! so that the wires and structure generate less heat - well i donno that (what the exotic stands for)

and i brought 2 practical input about AC -phases -- ???? what level ???? what depth

you just have such a slow reaction i thought i "kick the stone rolling"

So far in your attempt to "kick the stone rolling" you have shown you likely have no concept of what you are talking about, or are too high on pot and whatnot to be coherent in thought and capacity to communicate, and for the most part just stubbed your toe, and fell over backwards landing butt down in a pile of horse manure while the whole village was watching.

"+ i agree that how you interpret the seafloor physiogaphy from Jappan to Philippines is ... voluntary - not a must (theres also no levels - a simple "find similarities" on 2 pictures ... (((WTH))))"

Actually any decent Geologist or oceanographer could easily tell you what the sea floor between Japan and the Philippines looks like and how its classified with very little interpolation.

In sumation, PUT THE WEED DOWN FOR A FEW DAYS AND DRY OUT BEFORE GOING ONLINE AND MAKING COMMENTS. Just because you think it makes you look brilliant doesn't mean it's true and the rest of us agree.

Yea my great grandma taught me about the button and string when I was maybe 5 years old.

She even took it to the next level and taught me that if you place the string on one finger of each hand then twirl the button around a few tens of times to wind up the string then start pulling and relaxing on it in properly timed alternating cycles you can get that little button spinning back and forth crazy fast!

Them ancients was wise people. (Well at least to a 5 year old)

I'm so grateful when one eschews obfuscation.

"is this a find the looney tread or you start pushing your braincells and say at least TRUE FALSE about Op.s 90:48 when loaded with multiple (water pumps') inductances"

Okay.

False.

Given the spacing between the magnets and the spacing between the stator coils there is no three phase output with the proper 120 degree phase shift between them and there never fully will be that any standard three phase pump motor would be able to work on.

"(PLUS) V_L.P - this (that easy configuration) can be simulated ^{→ their coreless 16 generator coils'd be 56µH(3.5µH per coil) I_L.G'd be (1Hz to 10THz) in phase with I_L.P ???}

^{← this is the LTspice results (LTspice also fails to simulate my 3-phase LED circuit)} ... whitch is pointless waste of time"
I suspect your seemingly random choices of numbers and symbols plus the oddly connected circuits are just three of a dozen reasons why LT Spice cant simulate your circuits and no one here can figure out what you are going on about?

[quote] /* Copyright (C) 2001-2008 Claudio Girardi
// sections of induformu.js (6780bytes) omitted by ci139
/* This is a collection of various formulas for the inductance of
* loops and coils */
/* The following formulas are from * R. Lundin,
* "A Handbook Formula for the Inductance of a Single-Layer Circular Coil",
* Proc. IEEE, vol. 73, no. 9, pp. 1428-1429, Sep. 1985 */ [/quote]
i assumed their trapets coils are computation compatble with
S=20×70mm from where Diam.outer=2×√(S/π) , each next -4mm 24(not 25)rounds
the randomness factor 1:25 "+" multiple_layer to multiple_single_layer

sect 5.2.1 for motor coil parameters (i only assume it suits)

/// (not used in above simul.) the magnets spec.-s

Impressive.

I really am amazed that you can confidently calculate the inductance of a coil using only a formula from a 1985 IEEE publication. (I wonder how inductances were calculated for the century plus that people have worked with inductors?) I find it to be particularly ironic the claim that this formula is for a "single-layer circular coil" while the image clearly shows these coils to not be circular or single layer. You ignore the OP's information that "each coil has 52 rounds" and declare the 24 rounds (turns?) with a bizarre randomness factor of 1:25 +... You are not even consistent with the sparse information provided.

If this is your sad attempt to have fun with us, long ago you went from annoying to tragic. Stop this now.

If you are serious about your comments, you need help. I'm not sure if the help you need is a better translator into English, more formal education, a reduction in drugs consumed or clinical oversight in the drugs you should consume. I am sure that you will not get the help you need here.

<unsubscribe>

? is that better (still using that "1985"-formula (i hope ... yup! 2.01E+00µH (index.8 is matching))) NZUPS!cryB , thff-thff , NZUPS!cryB bow-bow , N-Z,N-Z,N-Z,Nnn-zzzZUp .... scribe (what if i am a weed i don't use any ... subsatnces - i just find it cool how you get upZ on nothing - worng - i don't mind actually - you just a bit funny then)

Fascinating.

So making yourself look like an uneducated and illiterate ass fool around educated and knowledgeable professionals is what makes you laugh?

I don't get it or the reasons why unless you have very low self esteem and self worth perhaps?

I have never really put much thought into it but I guess that somewhere someone has to get up every morning and confirm that they hate themselves to their very core by any means possible and apparently you making yourself look like and ass here is your special self loathing way of doing it!

By all means continue on until you find the strength and convictions you need to pull that trigger, tie that rope, drink that Drano, swallow those pills, or plug in those electrodes for the last time.

Formula was first printed 1928!

Here 2 sources for a better equation for L:

http://www.g3ynh.info/zdocs/magnetics/part_1.html

http://electronbunker.ca/CalcMethods3b.html