Induction Lighting. Is It the Next Bright Idea That Might Actually Work?

interesting topic thats new to me, I'll look at it more, thanks

Same here. I just found out about it last night while looking around on eBay.

Good efficiency, long life, fair to good color rating, plus the politicians appear to know nothing about it yet so they have not mandated ways to "improve" it further like they did with CFL and LED tech.

Looks a bit pricey though but given the life expectancy to wattage ratings it may be the better solution to large area and high output lighting than present HID in many ways. Instant restart, high lumen output, 50K - 100K hour bulb life, no flicker or hum, closer approximation to sunlight.

You gain increased bulb life due to no electrodes erosion, but are limited to the life of electrolytic capacitors used on the electronic ballasts, somewhere around 16000 Hrs. At this point, there should be lots of geeks doing reasearch on new capacitor technologies.

Other than that, they're a great concept, there is no doubt that Tesla was born over a century too early; I mean, he might just as well be born today and still be a genius.

What kind of crappy capacitors are you buying that only last 16,000 hours? I have electronics and electrical devices that have been in continuous duty applications running non stop for over a decade (85K - 100K+ hours) that have not had their capacitors go bad.

I have some with over 25 years...

fuhgeddaboudit!

I guess it all depends on the charge-discharge rates and how "deep" they are; I have seen motherboards with capacitor banks of ten or eleven pieces totally dry and swollen, although, a computer over ten years old is a piece of crap, wether it works or not.

Temperature, working voltages and altitude can also affect them.

We just need to switch our lighting circuits over to 3 phase power. Much easier to filter and only 1 more wire needed. We could be saving tons of money on power supply filters. The savings in replacement power supplies due to cap failure would probably pay the cost difference in a few years.

I agree.

Also, in a switching application with an inductive load of low power factor, there is a large ripple current flowing through this DC capacitor. This high current contributes to the internal temperature of the capacitor, accelerating its drying up.

Core temperature an enemy of the electrolytic capacitor. It is also compounded when they try to place many parts in a small enclosure with limited ventilation.

This is why that in general, the electrolytic capacitors in a large linear power supply will last for decades while the ones mounted on the small switcher powering up the LCD screen or the CFL light fail early in life...

Electrolytic capacitors cooling is often neglected by designer because the effect will only show up after the design has been operating for months or years as opposed to your semiconductors that fail quickly when abused. The semiconductors get all the cooling and the poor capacitors are left to dry...

One of my friend had made a hobby of picking up all those wide screen TV that a discarded because of the dry capacitors. He gives them away to his friends after spending half an hour replacing the inverter's capacitors. That usually fix it.

Aha! You discovered my secret...my 25 year (and more!) caps are in large linear power supplies.

Decades is an understatement for the ones approaching 50 years!

It's amazing how long electronic components last when circuits are built to the proper specs using components with specs that actually match or exceed the circuits requirements!

I have a old 24 volt 10 amp switching power supply that was built on the late 70's that put in somewhere near 20 - 25 years continuous duty work before I salvaged it from a piece of equipment in the late 90's. After that I probably had it running another 5 or so on my electronics workbench before I stopped using it on a regular basis.

Pretty good chance if I plugged it in today it would still fire right up and work as it was designed too!

The problems I see with too many modern switching power supplies is not so much bad components fabrication as is bad or highly marginal design of the circuits using those components.

I see far too many bad capacitors simply due to the circuit designer using ones with ESR ratings right at the limit of what's acceptable for the circuit and sizing of capacitors right at the lower limits of what's acceptable for the circuits working conditions. If the designer had just stepped up to one range lower of ESR value and one common size larger of capacitor I would say 90% or more power supply failures could be eliminated even with the higher working temps they encounter.

I just redid power supply in another flat screen TV I was given that had the usual bad electrolytic capacitor issues. I switched all the bad units out for ones that were at least 20 - 50% larger that had same or better ESR numbers than than the stock ones. Total cost difference between the stock and the larger better units was less that $1 or about 5% of the cost difference.

Really? They couldn't spend that extra $1 on better parts for the power supply that runs the whole TV that sold for nearly $600 new 4 - 5 years ago?

GA!

And that 'easily repaired' must include whatever is required to open the device to repair it. Among many other similar flaws, it has always amazed me that (for example) they put fuses in 'wall wart' power supplies, yet the only way to replace that fuse is to literally break the cemented or friction welded halves of the case apart.

I can understand tamper-resistant screws and hidden latches to keep average Joe safe, but a qualified technician with appropriate tools and information should be able to take anything apart without destroying or damaging it.

EPCOS does make electrolytic capacitors of special grade where 50 K hours is guaranteed. Part number is B 43890. See graph on page 7 of 31 page catalogue you can down load from web site. It depends on ripple current and designed margins etc.

Thanks for the relevant information!

Please clarify the following: "The longest period of time to date for service on any of the installed units is: 26 months..." did you mean nothing at all failed todate? Were there ANY issues?

Hi all

Have you seem this Induction lighting System installed in place other than tunnel or streets, for instance in process industries or workshop ??

thanks

Bye

I remember there was concern over using these where people would be in close proximity due to strong microwave emission.

A magnetron is used for powering the higher efficiency models, and while some systems avoided a the magnetron/microwaves, those systems were of lower efficiency.... if I recall correctly... Does anyone know if this is still the case?

I can't answer your question, but surely they would not be high efficiency if a significant amount of microwave energy were not converted into light energy, and escaped.

I've been cooking with microwaves for over half a century, and am not aware of any resulting bad effects.

I thought rapid onset cataracts were a big risk above certain energy densities.....

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You need to update your knowledge. Long ago around 1986 GE and Phillips developed these induction lamps working at a few Mega Hertz. Then OSRAM brought down working frequency down to just around 250 KHz. Now many induction lamps from China operate around 250 to 500 KHz. There are again internal electrode type and external electrode type induction lamps. GE & Phillips made internal electrode type which radiated energy in microwave band. Now technology has far advanced where EMI radiation is just as low 1 % of that laid down even in international standards.

>'...

I thought rapid onset cataracts were a big risk above certain energy densities.....'

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>> '...You need to update your knowledge. Long ago around 1986 GE and Phillips developed.....'

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Wow, I guess I do. No one gave me the 1986 memo about GE and Phillips deciding that microwave energy above certain density would no longer cook your eyes like the whites of an egg.

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How very thoughtful of them.

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Knowledge upgraded.

I'm pretty sure I originally misinterpreted your meaning when I first responded.

When you wrote:

'I've been cooking with microwaves for over half a century, and am not aware of any resulting bad effects.'

...my apparently sleepy brain translated that as you having been occupationally exposed to significant levels of microwave energy.

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Rereading, I now believe you are just saying you have used a microwave oven to cook with... which I do as well.

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As a matter of fact, I was working with magnetrons, both military and for cooking, back in the early '60s. I did wear a dosimeter, but if it ever indicated any significant radiation, I was not aware of it.

Induction lighting caught my eye, because I'm a BIG fan of induction cooking. I do virtually all of my cooking with induction, microwave, or in the barbeque.

I don't know anything about dosimetery used for microwaves. Do you recall what type it was; TLD, film badge, or?

That was more than 50 years ago! As I recall, it was a cylinder about 3/8 of an inch in diameter and around 5 inches long, that I put in my pocket protector with my pens and pencils and my 6" slide rule. Now that I think about it a bit, I have a vague recollection of a twisted quartz fiber supporting a vane that was half of a capacitor, which lost its charge at an accelerated rate in the presence of radiation. On the other hand, I might well be remembering one I learned about and/or used in connection with my Civil Defense training in the late '50s. I do remember using film dosimeters somewhere, as well.

At this point, I'm happy even to remember the term 'dosimeter', and its meaning, not to mention which kind and how they work!

Thanks for sharing what you remember about it.

My curiosity mainly comes from my lack of knowledge about dosimeters for non-ionizing radiation.

A huge number of 2 KW induction cook tops are in use in kitchens around the world. All work at the same frequency as the lights. I have not seen adverse reports.

Pl do not make such sweeping statements - that all cook tops and induction lamps work at same frequency - make practical measurements (if you are an electronic engineer and have access to such measuring facility). Only after that- you can make statement that some may affect health or not

You certainly can NOT say that all work at the same frequency. My induction cook top uses base frequencies that vary from roughly 20kHz to nearly 60kHz, depending on the setting of the power level, but it is a very complex waveform, so obviously has many components of effectively higher frequencies.

Here's an oscilloscope showing the waveform at 33kHz:

Fortunately, I can agree that I've heard no reports of ill effects; I certainly prefer cooking with induction.

"There is not any heating issues with these units nor do they require forced ventilation like the LED systems do but temperatures below the manufacturer's rating will prevent the lamp(s) from starting up if switched off and allowed to cool."

So how cold is too cold to start in general?

Of all the bulbs and manufactures specs I have been reading online so far the typical lower end is -30 to -40 F which even in our North Dakota winter nights is still pushing our lower limits of which we may only see a few time a winter at most.

The issue we have here is with using CFL's in outdoor lighting. The early designs would work well enough in our winters but the newer ones rarely come with a rating much below 0 F which means that when used as outdoor lighting in the winter they are prone to high failure rates and those that do light up are very dim at best.

Well I just ordered one last night.

eBay 40 watt induction bulb.

I had some eBay bucks accumulated so I figured this was a good way to burn them up and learn something.

I'll really be interested in what you find when it arrives. $31(with shipping) seems pretty steep for a 40W lamp.

Did you notice it said: "Mogul Base"? If the photo shown is indeed a Mogul base, then the thing is huge for only 40W. I suspect that either it is a standard Edison base, or its a lot more than 40W (400)?

Now, how do they wind that coil over the horizontal tube?

I will find out when it gets here. Either base size is not a problem for me. I have adapters.

I got my new bulb today and had a chance to play with it. I do have to say that given its 40 watt rating I would put its perceived color and output very close to that of a typical 250 watt incandescent!

Initial output is a bit dim and takes a little over a minute to get up to full brightness but after that even when ran continuous for some 4 hours I can still grab the bulb bare handed! It's hot but not burning hot!

Once warmed up re start to full brightness is instantaneous too!

Rather impressed really for what 40 watts is doing light wise!

Thanks for the update! Which base did it have?

Does this look like a possible substitute for high bay lighting?

Yes. In fact presently the vast majority of induction lighting systems are focused towards the higher wattage (100 - 500+ watt) large area coverage applications such as street and highway lighting parking lots and large structure lighting.

Odds are if you have ever been in a parking lot or under a gas station canopy or on a road or in a tunnel that had nice clear pleasant looking lighting with good daylight like color that came from fixtures that didn't buzz you were experiencing commercial induction lighting and didn't even know it!

My little 40 watt one is on the bottom end of the sizing, wattage, and efficiency range and I still like it and it has the large mogul type base although I see that it would be easy to take it off and glue on a old CFL base.

would hate to burst a bubble, but that sounds on par with the more efficient CFLs that are not instant-on.

The light coming from the CFL is not pleasant, and can be pretty annoying.

If something has the efficiency of the most efficient CFL, has acceptable light, doesn't create waste contaminated with leaking mercury, and has a long life, I'd say CFLs are nowhere near par.

OOOh! Thanks for the update/review. That is really cool (literally and figuratively).

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The fact that you can grab a 40 watt bulb bare handed after several hours of operation suggests high efficiency.

In combination with the light output/color you describe, it sounds like no other currently sold technology even comes close.

Thanks for the excellent report!

I have felt that LED is basically lot hyped up. Induction lighting is really an excellent concept. Request you to kindly share your first hand experience.

LEDs are too bright and hurt your eyes - if you directly look at the LED- but not so with induction lamp.- Kindly confirm.

Colour rendering - another issue - all objects look near natural colour - unlike other objects which seem to have one colour under FL or CFL and a different colour under natural sunlight.

LED lamp produces sharp shadows - as light source is pointed, while induction lamp is nearly shadow less- as it produces diffused light.

The light spreads beautifully in the room with induction lamp- while LED light is focused. It has little spread all round. Hence its target market is to high light - by focusing on pictures, in shop show cases etc.

Your inspection/dissection report is excellent. Many thanks.

The halo or fog around the light is interesting, especially the almost plasma like wisps. Does your camera do that around other types of light?

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I am a little unsure of the physical shape of the bulb, and attached toroid (the pictures are a little over exposed(?).) Is the bulb about 3/4 of a toroid with a circular cross section with the missing 1/4 meeting the ballast? Is the induction toroid contained in the slotted plastic toroid of rectangular cross section?

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Thanks again for the detailed review.

Buy one and find out! You have wasted more money on worse stuff.

That is certainly true.

Still, if you continue feeling philanthropic anytime soon, I am very curious if your camera has that effect around all light sources or just this one.

(Buying such a light source doesn't guarantee I will get wispy fog in my photographs, as it might be specific to the light or the camera or the combination).

Thanks again for the philanthropic gestures thus far, even if the limit has already been reached.