Previous in Forum: Transformer Exitation   Next in Forum: Electrical Question
Close
Close
Close
12 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Power-User
Turkey - Member - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 310

Siemens 3TH42

09/20/2013 5:14 PM

hello, what is the function of the small black button on this contactor?

__________________
jinxnao
Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
3
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4665
Good Answers: 804
#1

Re: siemens 3th42

09/20/2013 5:32 PM

That contactor has been obsolete for 20+ years now. But similar to newer designs, it's just a visual indicator as to whether the contact armature is in or out. i.e. the coil is energized or de-energized.

Do NOT use it as a 'Go' button! You will fry the contacts.

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Resting under the Major Oak
Posts: 4347
Good Answers: 181
#2
In reply to #1

Re: siemens 3th42

09/20/2013 7:56 PM

Some people spoil all the fun!

__________________
The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated.
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 123
Good Answers: 7
#4
In reply to #1

Re: siemens 3th42

09/22/2013 11:29 AM

Do NOT use it as a 'Go' button!

Why not? If it's used as a control relay, not switching power loads, you can use the black button to:

  1. Test or bump the relay.
  2. Activate the relay, if it's wired with a momentary contact that parallels one of the relay contacts to create a holding circuit. ("start button")

Best to use an insulated screw driver. Push firmly, release quickly.

Register to Reply
4
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4665
Good Answers: 804
#5
In reply to #4

Re: siemens 3th42

09/22/2013 11:58 AM

Relay = control

Contactor = power

The OP used the term "contactor", so it's safe to assume he is using it for power. Contactors used to switch power must NEVER be pushed in by hand under load, despite the fact that some mfrs provide what appears to be a "Go" button. When power contacts on modern contactors close, the conduction path creates opposing magnetic fields around themselves which are trying to force them apart. This is done in order to more quickly separate the contacts under load and extinguish the ensuing arc as fast as possible. If they used springs alone to separate the contacts, the spring pressure would need to be so great that the coil strength to overcome them would make the coils huge, costly, and hot. That's one reason why when you see a 75 year old contactor, it is 3-4x the physical size of a modern contactors. So the "magnetic blowout" concept was invented (by Hein Moeller, of Klockner Moeller fame) in the 1930s which allowed the use of less material in the coils. This incidentally is also the same concept used to hasten arc extinguishment in Current Limiting Circuit Breakers, pioneered here in North America by Westinghouse, who bought the patent rights for NA from Hein Moeller (which expired in the late 1970s, opening it up for everyone else).

So how that relates is that when the contacts close, they are immediately trying to re-open. When you push that "Go" button, you CANNOT exert enough mechanical force to keep that from happening, your skin and muscle tissue is just too squishy. So what is happening microscopically in those contacts is that they are chattering open and closed at the rate of twice the applied frequency (assuming AC power). You may BELIEVE that they are not, because the chatter just feels like a minor vibration to you. But inside those contact arc chute chambers, you are heating those contacts up extremely rapidly, which is running a serious risk of welding them, or at the very least, is shaving years of life from them.

If you don't believe me, that YOU cannot exert as much force as a contactor coil, I challenge you to partially disassemble a contactor by removing the movable contacts, wrap your fingers around the armature, energize the coil and see if you can hold it back from crushing your fingers.

Hint: don't really do it, you could lose your fingers!

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 4)
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South of Minot North Dakota
Posts: 8376
Good Answers: 775
#6
In reply to #5

Re: siemens 3th42

09/22/2013 1:04 PM

Interesting.

I have been using those little black buttons as manual overrides all my life and I have yet to ever fry a set of contacts by doing so.

Why would the forces placed on the contacts while doing it manually be any different than those produced by the coil?

Every contactor and relay I have ever taken apart has had small springs or similar devices that hold the contacts together when closed which to me says their force is what the contacts themselves are being subjected to. Not the holding forces of the actual coil.

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1686
Good Answers: 116
#7
In reply to #6

Re: siemens 3th42

09/22/2013 4:55 PM

I Guess you never closed a contactor manually onto a short....

Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4665
Good Answers: 804
#9
In reply to #6

Re: siemens 3th42

09/23/2013 12:11 PM

Those springs are there to dampen contact bounce until the armature closes completely. Once compressed by the electromagnet, the connection is virtually solid.

If you have ever seen an electric Fire Pump Controller, there is a manual lever that can be used to close the contactor in case there is a control circuit failure. To make that work, there is a mechanical advantage designed into it, plus a locking knee to maintain that pressure so that the operator can leave. The mechanical advantage designed into that lever must be no less than 3x the amount of pressure that an operator can exert directly (I worked for a time for a Fire Pump Controller mfr.).

All that said, I will concede that if one is talking about a small contactor, i.e. a re-rated control relay, then I'll accept that pushing the plunger likely has no detrimental effect. But the OP did not stipulate the size of his "contactor", so we don't really know.

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South of Minot North Dakota
Posts: 8376
Good Answers: 775
#10
In reply to #9

Re: siemens 3th42

09/23/2013 1:47 PM

How big of contactors are you talking about?

The one the OP reference is a good for 10 - 15 or so amps which to me is on the small end of things.

I have a number of good sized #PST units rated into the 200 - 300+ amp range that I have salvaged over the years and they still use the typical spring loaded contact systems.

Register to Reply
Power-User
Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - Rig Electrician United States - Member - the Oil Patch Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - Drives & Gen's Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - Drive Control Popular Science - Cosmology -

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Houston off/on-shore @ Oil Patch
Posts: 223
Good Answers: 2
#12
In reply to #6

Re: siemens 3th42

09/25/2013 6:22 PM

Me too, but GA to JRaef also, he's usually right and we've been lucky. AND he always wanted to be a lumber jack [and accidently buy a dead bird I bet] so got give another GA

__________________
Why do they make manhole covers round? so they won't fall in [before asking "Who is John Galt?"]
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Power-User

Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 123
Good Answers: 7
#11
In reply to #5

Re: siemens 3th42

09/23/2013 2:16 PM

The OP used the term "contactor", so it's safe to assume he is using it for power.

Yeah? Siemens calls them "contactor relays" because, although they look like contactors, they're really relays.

The OP's model 3TH42 is an 8-pole device. It's available with various combinations of non-replaceable NO and NC contacts, indications that we're dealing with control and not power.

In any case, I qualified my comment accordingly.

Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster #1
#3

Re: Siemens 3TH42

09/22/2013 7:50 AM

It activates the eject seat! Push to test it!

Register to Reply
Commentator
Technical Fields - Project Managers & Project Engineers - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: I come from the deep south but currently reside in the land of ice and snow, midnight sun and all that crap
Posts: 75
Good Answers: 3
#8
In reply to #3

Re: Siemens 3TH42

09/23/2013 5:00 AM

Ejector seat...I thought it was the "self destruct" button...

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Register to Reply 12 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

67model (1); Anonymous Poster (1); JRaef (3); kwcharlie (1); Pulpmillguy (1); tcmtech (2); TonyS (1); Zvi (2)

Previous in Forum: Transformer Exitation   Next in Forum: Electrical Question

Advertisement