Navistar International 3800 T444E Engine Technical Service Manual

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Thanks Lyn, Honestly, I wish I can have access to something more specific. I'm still open

Have you actually searched anywhere for the manual?

Jensales - International Harvester 3800 Engine Gas Engine Service Manual

Jensales - International Harvester 3800 Engine Diesel Engine Service Manual

Dear Guru Lyn, I'm afraid I don't understand 'International Harvester 3800', what I'm looking for is International 3800 T444E (T444E Engine). Sensors/wiring positioning and associated instructons will be of immense help,I have the physical memory of this engine to match whatever that can be found.Thanks for these

Is it a diesel or a gasoline engine?

Diesel sir

International T444E SpecsInternational/Navistar T444E diesel engine specs, power ratings, and information . Includes list of differences between the 7.3L Power Stroke and T444E.www.internationalpowerstroke.comwww.internationalpowerstroke.com/t444e.htmlclipped from Google - 10/2013International t444e engine manual - free eBooks downloadwww.gobookee.orgwww.gobookee.org/international-t444e-engine-manual/

clipped from Google - 10/20131998 International T444E Diesel Engine Running 174K miles ...www.youtube.comwww.youtube.com/watch?v=h0DJ7k_6U5g

clipped from Google - 10/2013international 4700 t444e NO START - Diesel Bomberswww.dieselbombers.comwww.dieselbombers.com/.../63505-international-4700-t444e-no-start.html

clipped from Google - 10/2013Navistar T444E engine | Facebookwww.facebook.comwww.facebook.com/pages/...T444E-engine/138719506156414

clipped from Google - 10/2013International / Navistar T444E Engine In-frame Rebuild Kit - Diesel ...dieselrebuildkits.comdieselrebuildkits.com/.../international-navistar-t444e-engine-in-frame-rebuild -kit

Dear Guru Lyn, I've been to your nice links, "gobookee.org" didn't lead me to the information I seek. T444E Facebook page is a mere summary lacking any detail or human link. I've seen all your links, the most interesting description being from 'gobookee.org' but the link to the document was like not going.

Looks like you're SOL.

<unsubscribe>

I'm sorry I don't understand "SOL" "<unsubscribe>" I'm also pleased to inform you that I've subscribed with one of the links you gave "Justanswer" the guys are asking for several things, so far I've provided but I'm yet to get something I need from them Thanks Guru Lyn, I'm still open

Lets say it's "So outof luck".

Thanks

Ukeje, you seem 'hard to please'!

Perhaps you need someone to personally bring you an ICP and an ICP from IHC?

Some effort is probably required on your own part, if you hope to fix that engine.

Snowboy, Where is the "ICP" located on this engine

I have no idea, being a Detroit Diesel guy (mostly) myself.

Here is a picture of one from within the bundle of info which you were sent by Lyn.

Why don't you print the pic and look the engine over until you find it?

Ok Snowboy, actually Lyn was contributive. I will watchout for the ICP when I revisit the bus vehicle engine. I just wonder why OEM Technical instructions are hard to find Thanks Snowboy

That's an easy one, and everybody is doing it.

The OEMs don't want people fixing their own stuff, as well as not wanting their intellectual property floating around for anyone to look at.

All manufacturers have clamped down on the accessibility of this material, and recommend taking your product to a factory authorized service center...where they get a cut of the parts sold and work performed.

I fairly understand the clampdown by OEM on their equipments maintenance unless on maximizing profit. With our Chinese human brothers any equipment can be easily cloned and deployed to work.What I'm looking for is to save time. If I'm interested in copying technology what I need is to BUY the technology and clone it.I'm not interested in competeing with Navistar International. People like me are not a threat to intellectual property. My intention is equipment maintenance. And I will not recommend any OEM's product that its predecessors are noted for maintenance unfriendliness which normally leads to equipments short service life

Someone else changed a seal and now you've been called in to get it going....

You must be desperate for work or the engine owner is a good mate who needs help.

I hate trying to sort out "had it fixed and now it doesn't work anymore" issues.

Which seal was changed? What was removed to get to it?

Thanks Guru Wal, The seal that was changed is the front crankshaft oil seal (I wasn't there while it was being changed) I was called in by same persons that changed the seal, and the only way is to assist them restart this vehicle I lack detailed OEM or experienced information on this equipment. I am not desperate for a meaningless work.I was only called in bcos the mechanics who changed the seal suspect electronics failure

Can't you use the same service manual that your friends used to replace the seal?

I think we may have identified the problem.

They were not people I knew, they were my client's mechanics. I don't think they were following OEM instructions and I don't trust their reports and technical judgments. That's why I'm here with you. What could possibly be the identified problem which I'm still ignorant of?

The identified problem, is that they tore it down and replaced the seal, without using a service manual. There's no telling what they did wrong, and it could be completely unrelated to the seal replacement, which it probably is, since screwing up a seal replacement wouldn't cause it not to start.

You've got your work cut out for you. Unless these are close friends, I would leave it alone. Going behind people that don't know what they're doing, can get time consuming and expensive.

I've got a brother in law that likes to take things apart...he then thinks that I can look at a pile of parts and know how it goes back together. I can't.

Your absolutely right Guru Kramarat, But that's why solutions exist becos people screw things up while intending to solve a problem they're not qualified to. I do not want to complicate the existing problem by a "bolt and nut" approach. That's why I need help to locate OEM standard maintenance and troubleshooting or diagnostic instructions. The best would have been to acccess the machine with an OEM computing device but that may be farther than simple technical instruction manual. A willing experienced technician on this particular engine will also be of imense informational help.I have my experiences on Navistar International. Perkins "HEIU" but not on this particular engine configuration. Kindly furnish me with any relevant info you can. Cheers

OK, lets get to work.

1) With the key on, and the engine not running do you have the "Engine Warn" light on? If not this MUST be corrected first.

2) If the Engine Warn light is on, now locate the STI (self test input) switch. This should be located in the same location as the ignition switch, but on the opposite side of the steering column. With the key off, push in and hold the STI. Now turn the key to run (not start) This will start the electronic control system self test of the KOEO (Key On Engine Off) components. These include a) ECM (Engine Control Module) internal tests, and b) OCC (Output Circuit Check) tests.

3) To read the fault codes, it will be necessary to count the number of times the Engine Warn light flashes. In addition, the "Oil/Water" light will signify the start of each separate Active code. All codes are three digits, and "111" indicates no stored codes. Count the number of times the Engine Warn light flashes. At the end of each digit of the code there will be a short pause, then the next digit will flash. At the end of each flashed three digit code, the red Oil/Water light will signal you that another code is starting.

Have a pen and paper with you to write down the numbers as they are flashed as there may be a few. If you have never had to read flash codes, it should come to you in a few tries, just stop, and repeat the process if you get lost in the flashes.

Good luck, and post the codes you get.

Ok Guru Bob, I must get to work in about 18hours time from now. That is when I will have access again to the vehicle and the technicians who put it out of work. I hope to exhaust all your instructions sequentially Thanks for the information boost. I must feedback

Guru Bob C, Thank you. The last I vividly remember checking for warning lndicator lamps, I did not see any 'Engine Warn' lights on during all key positions. I remember seeing driver control panel instruments going into a kind of self test dancing spins and I saw a red lamp like "Wait To Start" come on and finally off before I cranked with key. I am certain there was no "Engine Warn" indicator lamp lit. Please react to this sir

That is a common excuse for someone who does not want to do the work - I worked on it and now it is broken and IT COULD NOT POSSIBLY BE ANYTHING I DID so it must be something electronic. Get them to come back and disassemble the unit to the point where the seal is installed and then monitor the reassembly from that point. Watch them disassemble and you might see a clue of something not connected or damaged in the process. To say "it is not related to what I did" is a poor excuse for not finding what happened.

LOL never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to FIX it again later.

LongintheTooth, I shall have access to the men and equipment in less than 18hours. Your point is clear and I am optimistic the ''mistake'' will be detected before the engine starts again.Thank you

Be aware the they might "suspect" electronic failure because they have a good idea what connector or sensor is damaged, but are hesitant to admit they had any part in it. I always tell my workers never try to hide a defect or problem that you had a hand in, report it immediately, you could put someone else at risk by not confessing to a problem. I would rather fix a problem that someone admitted than to have the knowledge that they KNEW it and did nothing. I tell my people that I will not punish them because the machine broke, we want it repaired NOW. The situation can be used as a learning experience and the person and the business will benefit from that. There is a better reason to discipline someone for NOT telling than there is for someone who was honest. Honesty is the reason here, in an industrial setting, lives can be at risk if there is one dishonest person.

Please let me say that I do not suggest these people are dishonest, they may really not know that the damage or problem was introduced by their actions, other than the fact that they did the work and now it is not working as before or not at all. They would be dishonest if they KNEW and CHOSE not to admit it.

That is the way I was taught. First fix the problem. After that the rest is easy. satisfy the customer.

Ask whoever replaced the seal if they had to remove any of the timing gear train to access the seal. If the timing is wrong it will never start.

Good place to start before messing with any electrical issues.

Wal, I just called (on phone) the man in who was in charge during the seal removal operation, he claimed he was present and that no timing gear train was touched, he went ahead to add that after their operation that the engine started and ran for about two minutes before going off finally and refusing to start. He had said a similar thing earlier when I visited the vehicle. As of "messing" with electrical issues, I don't think that may happen under the right directions from an experienced personnel. *Assuming what the seal removal technician said is correct, what could have gone wrong? Perhaps there's something he's witholding and I intend to find out in less than 18 hours from now. Please put me in the right direction if I'm going astray on this. Cheers

I cannot be sure on this engine, but how do you remove a front crank seal without removing the crank timing gear ? My timings are external, but perhaps this one has internal timing gears behind the front bearing.

your original post did not say it had started again. Perhaps you did not know that detail at that time.

The fact that it ran a bit and then stopped should give a clue. Did it run with unusual noise or difficulty? has it siezed or does it still rotate and not fire ? did it start normally ?

Left to itself a diesel prefers to keep running

there are only 2 ways to stop it from doing so.

only a couple of PROPER ways to stop it, that is.

LogintheTooth , kindly complete your statement, Thanks

Ukeje; the statement was in reference to #32 where I closed with

only 2 ways to stop it

and I thought I had better qualify that statement saying

2 PROPER ways to stop it. Since there are many ways to stop it that are not in-design.

Good Luck,

I will be interested to hear what you find.

L I T.

It is possible to change the front or rear crank seal on this engine without going internal.

If the engine ran after the repair, then died, I would suspect fuel as an issue. Try some starting fluid. (small amounts only) Gasoline fumes will also work to test for lack of fuel. Again, small amounts only.

Before using starting fluids be certain the manufacturer supports them. many engines suffer immediate damage with starter fluids and they are expressly forbidden. I agree fuel is lieky a problem, perhaps there is an air lock, but does the thing spin? if not then it is not fuel. They said it is "refusing" thats a little vague.

Agreed.

It spins freely on cranking.I witnessed it myself about 48 hours ago

I remember being told by the seal changed technician that gasoline had been used to start aid the engine before I was called in. I didn't attempt to use any starting fluid again. On my suspicion of fuel what I investigated was the fuel return line during cranking. It was pressurised with my thumb slightly blocking the return hose

OK so 3 things must happen for the engine to run.

Air intake must be open at least a little.

Compression must occur

Fuel must be injected ( at the right time usually just past TDC )

a cold engine might require glow plug operation to provide basic ignition.

once a cylinder fires, however, the operation is self sustaining.

My direction here would be to verify the 3 requirements, starting with the compression.

You say there is return flow so it is present in the injector pump.

If you can sense that there is compression by sound or other observation then

it will be most likely wrong-timed or no injection. is there discharge of fuel or unburned smell from exhaust

Electronics on a diesel are mostly monitoring and charging systems, and control of the air intake/ throttle so it is not very likely unless the solenoid is disconnected by open wire or unconnected plug. However on a DG electronics can disable the engine because of a safety fault. Do not attempt to bypass these it will result in extreme hazard and injury. Diesels can accelerate faster than you can react so do not tamper with any safety feature.

In my opinion, loss of compression will most likely be the result of broken timing possibly the result of the gasoline assist attempt. Even with one cylinder with a stuck valve the other cylinders would still fire.

This Engine is a "V8" injection is with a combination of timing sensors-on board electronic computer-(not sure if the injectors are hydraulically actuated yet)- electronic activated fuel injection. Have you considered the above as part of my predicament alongside air intake, fuel pressue, compression and initializing temperature as you rightly stated. This will be way easier with OEM technical documents, but I guess I'm stuck to learn this engine the hard way. The ECM or ECU or IDM or PCM or whatever name this OEM decide to call the onboard computer that came as part of this engine may even be 'programmed' to deactivate the injection on any pre randomly chosen whim. These information I'm denied to restart this engine

Very true, on an ECM everything has to be right or it will safety out.

The ECM might allow one or two revolutions before it stops the sequence so does the engine try to start at all or just a dead spin?

So what happened during the several minutes that it ran ? did it quit by itself or was it shut down by operator ? was it being adjusted or touched during the run and what was the reason for that. These will all be good information and clues. If it quit by itself without being touched, you have to consider a failure of ECM as well. I have had control valves go bad and ruin an ECM and replacing the ECM without repairing the valve would have ruined the replacement ECM too. You will need a diagram showing ECM and sensor wiring to check this, to verify each control or sensor.

This is not necessarily the trouble, get as much symptom info as you can and think about cause and effect. If you have limited technical support, its the best you can do. Get paid well for this one, LOL

The engine does have the hydraulic driven injectors. The ECM can vary injector pressure as well as duration through the hydraulics.

But everything that the ECM senses, or controls that is above or below the resistance that it should have will set a trouble code. That is why reading the memory of an ECM equipped vehicle is always an early check. Do yourself a favor, and follow the sequence above to check for codes.

Good day Bob, You seem to know much about this engine.Thanks.Can you kindly comment on my memory in your preceeding comment. Right now I am going to the engine's physical location, when I get ther I hope to still see your comments on whatever I observe, Cheers Guru

I am with technicians and vehicle now. Upon Key ON, yellow'WARN ENGINE' indicator lamp is not turned on permanently, I only see redBRAKE PRESS indicator lamp solidly on

They put gasoline in a diesel engine???!!!!

These people should not be allowed to work on anything!

Thanks, The problem has been detected. Cheers

What was the problem?

I think he owes us that much.

IN SIMPLE LANGUAGE: This engine come equipped with a low pressure and a high pressure oil chambers. The low pressure oil pressure oil chamber got starved of circulating engine oil.(Upon removal of the low preSsure only oil filter, there's no oil supply during cranking. ENGINE WON'T START BECAUSE OF 'H'EIU manufacturer configuration. The diagnosis was painstaking without Navistar International or associated maintenance guide. But it was done without their secrets. Thanks and cheers

The low pressure "chamber" is the normal lubricating circuit that all modern engines have for lubrication of bearings, rockers wrist pins, and the like. The high pressure "chamber" is the stored energy that is used to pressurize the fuel at the injector. It has brought increases in power and efficiency, while reducing emissions. But there are trade-offs. With no oil pressure going through the empty oil filter, there was no supply of oil to pressurize the injectors. Hence no fuel to run on.

Navistar was doing some testing with expanded use of this design. They were attempting to use the system to control intake and exhaust valves in the same manner. The system could use smaller valves at idle or low power demands, and hydraulically bring in the larger valves only as they were needed for power.

Congratulations on fighting through this.

Thanks Bob C, all along your comments you were the. CR4 man with the very experience I needed, I also believe you may have access to the technical instructions or something higher.I'm honoured to be communicating with you alongside several Gurus

As luck would have it, I have the Diagnostic Manuals and the Service Manuals for the T444E, the DT466E and the 530E engines. The 444 engine is also known as the 7.3 engine used in Ford 250 through 450 series trucks.

Ok Bob C, I wish you safe from all harm's way till I require your support again.Thanks for your approach into this issue.

I cannot be "certain" without manufacturer instructon or manufacturer trained experienced personnel. Such is the nature of my ongoing predicament

when you cannot be sure then err on the side of caution and do not use. Better to not use and be sure you did no further damage than to be unsure and use and cause damage.

My familiarity with automotive factory manuals is somewhat dated, but as recently as 2008, printed paper manuals were multi volume publications selling in the neighborhood of $300. Sometimes the electrical section was sold separately.

I've seen a specialty GM web forum where respondents routinely post factory illustrations from factory manuals. Undoubtably, those graphics were not scanned from paper, but are available in digital format, which leads me to believe that the factory publications are available at some level in pdf format. Whether the public is privileged to obtain an electronic version is not clear to me, but a dealer should know.

The third party publishers' (Motors, Chiltons, Haynes) coverage of electrical and/or troubleshooting was sketchy, skin deep, at best.

Thanks, finally I have my problems figured out the hard way.

Hello higher friends on CR4, May I humbly thank all Users who posted comments: Anonymous Poster (1); bob c (5); Bud (1); IdeaSmith (1); kramarat (5); LongintheTooth (10); lyn (4); snowboy (2); Ukeje (26); Wal (3) Cheers Engineers.

Well done Ukeje!

You've racked up another "credibility maintenance miracle" to your name.

What's the next challenge for you now mate? (apart from getting paid what you are truly worth)