Previous in Forum: 3D Conductive Filaments - Any Known Suppliers?   Next in Forum: A Question About 3-Phase Delta
Close
Close
Close
23 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Power-User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Townsville, Australia
Posts: 149

Electromagnetic Screening

11/14/2013 5:04 AM

Hi lads, I need some advice ( for a change ) About 14 months ago a I had a few cardiac probs leading to the recent implant of a " Defiribillator ", which gives me a belt if the bloody thing stops. (heart). That's ok, and obviously I'm very grateful, but I have to admit its cramped my style somewhat. In that I have to avoid electrical fields, as found in welders, electrical motors etc. OK,so what I need is a, Faraday screen. I've done some searches and there are fabrics available but EXPENSIVE, and then once I've got it, I then have get it made into a shirt..! So lads, are there any thoughts/ideas on this subject....? Norm.

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Guru
United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: In the pool because it is too hot.
Posts: 3054
Good Answers: 141
#1

Re: Electromagnetic screening

11/14/2013 6:40 AM

You could also consider an plate (amulet like) made of MU metal. You can wear it under your clothes. It is light and thin. A Faraday cage is supposed to be grounded too, what seems very unpractical in your case. In my opinion it is more an electro magnetic shield that you need. (you might consider to become a knight in shiny armor too. Lol)

__________________
Plenty of room here
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: by the beach in Florida
Posts: 33392
Good Answers: 1817
#2

Re: Electromagnetic screening

11/14/2013 7:26 AM

I don't know what level of protection is required, but here are some ready made garments...

http://www.lessemf.com/personal.html#250

__________________
All living things seek to control their own destiny....this is the purpose of life
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Optical Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Member Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - Member

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Trantor
Posts: 5363
Good Answers: 647
#3

Re: Electromagnetic screening

11/14/2013 8:01 AM

If possible, you can make the de-fib device less susceptible to Electric fields by twisting the wires. Then use a shielded shirt.

__________________
Whiskey, women -- and astrophysics. Because sometimes a problem can't be solved with just whiskey and women.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Surrey BC Canada
Posts: 1571
Good Answers: 42
#4

Re: Electromagnetic Screening

11/14/2013 10:48 AM

Don't do welding, Stay away from working on microwave towers, don't take a rest against a 300 hP VFD motor.

Office work, surveying, tending a flock of sheep, working in a coffee shop, airline transport captain, fly fishing, sunning on the beach, golfing - should all be safe activities.

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Automotive Performance - New Member Technical Fields - Education - New Member Fans of Old Computers - TRS-80 - New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 1331
Good Answers: 30
#5

Re: Electromagnetic Screening

11/14/2013 8:21 PM

To be MOST effective, that 'Faraday Shield' vest should also be grounded!

However, that being said, most bioelectronic devices work on "differential" signals, so are pretty much immune to typical ac-induced signals...but NOT high-energy fields with overlaying RF or digital signals, such as MRI scanners, etc.

__________________
...and the Devil said: "...yes, but it's a DRY heat..!"
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: sometimes Wales,UK.. was Libya, now Oman!
Posts: 1715
Good Answers: 117
#6

Re: Electromagnetic Screening

11/15/2013 2:55 AM

chainmail...

__________________
The square root of nothing is what you make it!
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 152
Good Answers: 2
#7

Re: Electromagnetic Screening

11/15/2013 4:08 AM

A quick search on google for e-fabrics came up with this:-

https://www.google.co.uk/#q=e-fabric&safe=active

There was one item on Amazon that doesn't seem to pricey (I know it's not that big a piece):-

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Conductive-Fabric-12-x13-MedTex180/dp/B004SQG704

Or maybe this:-

http://proto-pic.co.uk/conductive-fabric-12x13-ripstop/

You could have a go at making your own for the time being. Take a look at this site, I known it's a bit crude, but you could have a bit of fun refining it:-

http://www.instructables.com/id/Fused-Fabric-with-Conductive-Thread/

You could use carbon fibre instead of wires, which might make it a bit more flexible.

Graphene is a new product that could produce the sort of thing you're looking for. But it's a bit pricey at the moment and, I'm not sure if they've even started making fabrics from it yet.

I hope this is of some help to you and, I hope you find what you're looking for. That doesn't cramp your style. Smooooth.

All the Best

Register to Reply
2
Commentator

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Sirenia
Posts: 55
Good Answers: 2
#8

Re: Electromagnetic Screening

11/15/2013 7:22 AM

Dear Normbourne,

I work in that field. I have supplied such materials to some customers locally.

First of all, you cannot stop magnetic fields. So you should keep avoiding them anyway (electric motors, transformers, Hi V lines). For electrical fields, it is rather easy to stop them with the same proposal explained next.

For the strong electromagnetic waves/densities, it would be wise if you use some shirt or t-shirt inside to cover your torso and protect the device and your heart. There are two types of fabric for this. First, the surface conducting ones, second, surface nonconducting ones.

I would recommend you using silver/nylon fabrics if you prefer surface conducting. These are around 50-60 dB protection in the telecom frequencies and they are quite good. It would be wise if you would laminate this fabric over a cotton base or sew it directly on an existing T-shirt. Conductance short circuits your meridians and may trigger allergies in your body. Silver is anti-bacterial so it will not have any side effects other than this short circuiting issue. These fabrics leave a silk like feeling and they also balance your body heat. No copper or other materials exist.

If you use silver-copper non surface conducting fabric, I would still recommend sewing them as above. The "Natural" or "Wear" from Swiss Shield is good. Prefer natural since it is 38 dB and fully cotton. Dont forget if the silver is worn out you end up with copper which turns into green by corrosion. It is when you need to replace them.

All materials are readily available from lesseremf.com. Avoid wireless phones in your home. They are the monstrous EM sources noone cares at all.

WKR, ULUAYDIN

__________________
Sanity does not border insanity while insanity does.
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Power-User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Townsville, Australia
Posts: 149
#23
In reply to #8

Re: Electromagnetic Screening

05/11/2015 7:47 PM

Excellent info, perusing the lesseremf.com site, reveals that upper chest shields are readily available and are suited for pacemaker wearers, but not only that, they carry, independent "pacemaker alert meters". The beauty of that is one can test the environment for EMF. Anyway thanks so much, this is definitely the way to proceed. Norm.

Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Alabama
Posts: 1604
Good Answers: 63
#9

Re: Electromagnetic Screening

11/15/2013 2:10 PM

.

Birch, this man has heart problems. This type shield will keep him in bed for the

rest of his life.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: sometimes Wales,UK.. was Libya, now Oman!
Posts: 1715
Good Answers: 117
#10
In reply to #9

Re: Electromagnetic Screening

11/15/2013 2:17 PM

and it's BRICH.. not BIRCH...

__________________
The square root of nothing is what you make it!
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Surrey BC Canada
Posts: 1571
Good Answers: 42
#11
In reply to #9

Re: Electromagnetic Screening

11/15/2013 2:32 PM

How Lucky!

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 406
Good Answers: 3
#16
In reply to #9

Re: Electromagnetic Screening

11/16/2013 6:20 AM

It took a week to get the smile off his face

Register to Reply
3
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Surrey BC Canada
Posts: 1571
Good Answers: 42
#12

Re: Electromagnetic Screening

11/15/2013 2:41 PM

We have all jumped on a band wagon suggesting all sorts of solutions to his question. When someone wanted to string together a dozen LEDS the flag went up and it was "oh, so unsafe".

We are playing with the possibility of recommending shielding a pacemaker for unknown field strengths - ie, is he an industrial worker in the power transmission field, or an office worker with no risk.

None of us are in the position of being able to recommend as suitable any material, or risking the mans life by giving him a false sense of security for some silver coated threads.

The recommendations and conditions of the OEM, and his attending physician should be the only consideration.

Any suggestions we make are tantamount to malpractice or professional misconduct.

I am absolutely convinced of the above.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 595
#21
In reply to #12

Re: Electromagnetic Screening

11/17/2013 12:07 PM

it turns out that depending of exact diagnosis the OP's "can do list" may vary a lot

as far as i got the heart conditions are to stay in common but there are ways to care yourself - speciffic diet , "lifstyle" , ? place to live - that may minimize the effects

consult your doc and local medicine men

__________________
ci139
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - Born, raised halfway 'round .....

Join Date: May 2010
Location: Metro.Manila, Philippines.
Posts: 1268
Good Answers: 27
#13

Re: Electromagnetic Screening

11/15/2013 3:01 PM

Since you are thinking about EMF shielding using some type of a Faraday cage? Which to be effective, in itself has to be earthed to discharge any collected or accumulated energies.. Being in that condition, wearing a grounded electrically conductive material, you may actually appear like a lightning rod! In this kind of situation, I believe you should stay indoors, specially during thunderstorms!

On the other hand, defibrillators or AEDs by design are tested to be up to a certain degree non-sensitive to any EMF radiations. They are not readily susceptible to EMF radiations, so the farther you are physically away from RF radiators, the safer you are! The electrodes used to sense and pick up your ECG signals are supposed to be shielded as well. Any needed accessories must be from the OEM. Otherwise may come out to be of inferior quality or out of OEM specifications.

The weakest link where unwanted EMF may get into is at the entry point from your skin. This is where you make the actual electrical connections between those external lead wires coming from the unit will be patch to those imbeded wires that are coming from your heart!

Remember the square law on signal strengths... So the best solution is to stay away from any electrical devices!

__________________
vsar
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Townsville, Australia
Posts: 149
#14

Re: Electromagnetic Screening

11/15/2013 5:19 PM

OK Lads, Firstly, thank you one and all for your advice, interest, and comments, including the humerous ones...! The situation is that the device, pacemaker/defibrillator, is completely buried in my chest, there are no external wires, all that can be seen is a hard lump on the left hand side of my chest. My physician has advised that I stay away from electrical fields, such as that emanating from welders, electric motors, and the fields that exist beneath the bonnet of a motor vehicle etc. However, he said that he has patients who have constructed shields which allow them to not overcome these electrical fields but shield them from same. I am 72 years old and a retired electrician, so I am aware that what he is talking about is some form of Faraday screen. I am a bit of a handyman and I very often do a bit of welding in my workshop so it is not something I would be wearing on a constant basis. Apparently, normal power tools, such as hand held drills, grinders etc. aren't such a problem. A metal patch would obviously be ideal but forming it to suit the contours of my chest whilst not impossible may prove a challenge, (roman breast plates are in short supply here) and then of course there is the chicken wire solution. I thought that maybe there is a solution that I could wear, that whilst being very effective, I would not be aware of. Anyway lads, thanks again. Norm.

Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: In the pool because it is too hot.
Posts: 3054
Good Answers: 141
#15
In reply to #14

Re: Electromagnetic Screening

11/15/2013 9:14 PM

I have been looking for a picture bit could not find one.

Last time I was in Argentina and some guys made handbags out of the lids that come off aluminum cans of coke, sodas and beer. They wove a thin metal wire between the holes and made real beautiful creations with it. I am sure, when you find the lids (the rings that open the can), you might be able to assemble a very original shield and it will make you look "cool' too.

Those handbags had a really sophisticated look.

__________________
Plenty of room here
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: May 2010
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 390
Good Answers: 82
#17
In reply to #14

Re: Electromagnetic Screening

11/16/2013 9:12 AM

Usbport suggested twisting your wires. While you can't twist whatever wires are involved with your pacemaker, you can twist your two welding-cable wires, and connect the ground return close to your weld point. But the thing that bothers me about this whole scene is your mandated required choice of magnetic-field sensor to test the setup, your heart!

__________________
Thanks, Win
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - Born, raised halfway 'round .....

Join Date: May 2010
Location: Metro.Manila, Philippines.
Posts: 1268
Good Answers: 27
#18
In reply to #17

Re: Electromagnetic Screening

11/16/2013 11:09 AM

"But the thing that bothers me about this whole scene is your mandated required choice of magnetic-field sensor to test the setup, your heart!"

Mr Winfield,

I am not sure if this is what you have in mind?

There are implantable pacemakers (ICDs) that cardiac specialist (cardiologists) uses that I believe similar to what the OP described.. These ICDs are being calibrated, adjusted, and set while inside the patient's chest wall. The cardiologist can continuously monitor, tweak, fine tune or even re-program the ICD settings through the use of a computerized system via radio waves.. while worn by patient!

This knowledge was experience based while conducting inspections (functionality tests) on them about 15 years ago! Since they're basically a transmitter/ receiver set up, I'm sure its main weak point is also via unwanted or spurious RFs or EMF interference and radiations.. Its very possible a more robust design approach have been implemented for the past 15 years?

__________________
vsar
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: May 2010
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 390
Good Answers: 82
#19
In reply to #18

Re: Electromagnetic Screening

11/16/2013 12:57 PM

I see, you're thinking about the possibility of improperly reprogramming the pacemaker? Hopefully they're robust against that happening. No, I was imagining that the v = dB/dt voltages picked up on the leads to the heart would cause problems for the heart's electrical system. Understand, the reason behind the warnings is a topic I know next to nothing about!

__________________
Thanks, Win
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - Born, raised halfway 'round .....

Join Date: May 2010
Location: Metro.Manila, Philippines.
Posts: 1268
Good Answers: 27
#20
In reply to #19

Re: Electromagnetic Screening

11/16/2013 1:50 PM

That is true, as well as your dB/dt concerns is rightfully just since the intended application deals with only a very low output range of about 1 mV, at times even less! I believed this range & sensitivity part has been addressed early on in the design stages of the device. Beside having a very high CMRR, it is typical for the ICD units to come equipped with a very thin set of shielded lead wires as they come out of the ICD's. Aside from having shielded they are also in a pre-twisted form configuration, which I believe should addresses your concern as the wires get threaded thru the tissues.

Just a thought if I can remember correctly?

__________________
vsar
Register to Reply
Power-User
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: the sandbox
Posts: 341
Good Answers: 6
#22

Re: Electromagnetic Screening

11/18/2013 12:12 AM

GW is so SO right!

...and having worked with Faraday cages, can I possibly recommend one to take EM levels inside the cage down to below an unknown level, without grounding the cage, and without the cage covering 360 degrees in all directions and having a mesh size of less than λ/4 when frequencies are unknown?

No, I cannot. IMHO a functional cage must be grounded and must have

mesh sizes < λ/4, and must provide 360 degree coverage.

Anything less is voodoo!

__________________
BSEE but always learning
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 23 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

1capybara (1); 70AARCuda (1); brich (2); ci139 (1); DodgySolenoid (1); dvmdsc (2); GW (3); Munster (1); Normbourne (2); SolarEagle (1); uluaydin (1); Usbport (1); vsar (3); wareagle (1); Winfield Hill (2)

Previous in Forum: 3D Conductive Filaments - Any Known Suppliers?   Next in Forum: A Question About 3-Phase Delta

Advertisement