Previous in Forum: Dissolving Caustic Flakes   Next in Forum: Crystallization of Methamidophos
Close
Close
Close
14 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Commentator

Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 98
Good Answers: 2

Shrinkage of Molded Phenolic Composite Material

12/06/2013 8:45 AM

I have been trying to get a plain cylindrical bush of approximate size 3" id x 4" od x 3 " long, machined out of rough molded cotton fabric reinforced phenolic tube or rod. I require an accuracy of +/- 0.002 on id and od. Machining is done on a lathe and not a problem. But after machining, I notice unpredictable amount of shrinkage, warpage and ovality in the bush. This starts immediately after machining and increases day by day, may reach up to +/- 0.008 on id and od, which is not acceptable.

I would appreciate if somebody could suggest a solution to this problem of shrinkage and warp-age of material by any procedural change or precaution at the time of molding or machining. Thanking you in advance.

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
2
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42355
Good Answers: 1693
#1

Re: Shrinkage of Molded Phenolic Composite Material

12/06/2013 9:44 AM

You need to stress relieve the material, before and after machining it. You also need to keep the material at room temperature during the machining process. (Do not induce heat into it while machining)

I don't remember the temperature and time the stress relieving process takes but it should not be difficult to find.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16512
Good Answers: 670
#2

Re: Shrinkage of Molded Phenolic Composite Material

12/06/2013 11:34 AM

Presumably the answer is to rough machine 'em, store 'em for a week and then finish machine 'em?

Mind I'm not sure the material will hold that tolerance with time anyhow? Many plastics absorb water and change dimension...

The clever answer may be to design out the poblem if possible, make it less tollerance dependent. More tollerant of tollerances (tee hee)
Del

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42355
Good Answers: 1693
#3
In reply to #2

Re: Shrinkage of Molded Phenolic Composite Material

12/06/2013 12:03 PM

If you start out close to the tolerance limit on either end, heating or cooling may throw the tube out of tolerance.

Back in my youth, we'd specify an inspection temperature for complex injection molded parts, that were inspected by government inspectors. Some of them had no concept of thermal expansion/contraction of plastics.

Register to Reply
2
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - Old Salt Hobbies - CNC - New Member United States - US - Statue of Liberty - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Rosedale, Maryland USA
Posts: 5197
Good Answers: 266
#4

Re: Shrinkage of Molded Phenolic Composite Material

12/06/2013 1:06 PM

Sounds like Garolite CE a canvas phenolic. Which can have up to 2% water absorption. That can cause what you describe. Fibers are pretty much encapsulated until machining exposes fibers to the atmosphere. Where changes in humidity will cause to expand and contract.

Try Garolite LE a linen phenolic will hold dimensions better. Won't absorb as much moisture.

__________________
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a pretty, pristine body but rather to come sliding in sideways, all used up and exclaiming, "Wow, what a ride!"
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Power-User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Posts: 147
Good Answers: 9
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Shrinkage of Molded Phenolic Composite Material

12/06/2013 5:14 PM

Or better yet, glass-reinforced phenolic should have very little water absorption.

The link is to a resource. No connection to me and no recommendation.

http://www.emcoplastics.com/materials/phenolic/phenolics-glass-reinforced/

Good luck

__________________
You have to actively participate in the manifestations of your own joys and good fortunes - they are not ready made for the taking, they are available for the making.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Placerville, CA (38° 45N, 120° 47'W)
Posts: 6216
Good Answers: 248
#6
In reply to #5

Re: Shrinkage of Molded Phenolic Composite Material

12/06/2013 11:08 PM

The OP is talking about a bushing, which presumably involves a rotating shaft of some kind. Glass fiber will wear that shaft significantly...

__________________
Teaching is a great experience, but there is no better teacher than experience.
Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 98
Good Answers: 2
#7
In reply to #5

Re: Shrinkage of Molded Phenolic Composite Material

12/07/2013 2:44 AM

Thanks for all your comments. My comments are as below:

1) Glass reinforced composite is not a suitable option.

2) Since the problem is of shrinkage (reduction in id and od) and warpage, swelling due to humidity may not be the problem. swelling should increase the od in free condition.

3) I think, my machining tolerance is quite liberal for the bush size.

4) Material does not get heated up while machining, at least by touch. I have also tried rough machining the pieces first and finish machining after a dy or two.

Problem is the unpredictability of shrinkage and warpage as it varies in each piece. I think, the best option would be stop or minimize it, which should be possible, as in the case of metals.

Stress relieving before and/or after machining may be a solution. I tried this on rough machined peice by heating at 85-90deg C in a oven, letting it cool to room temp and them machining. But, the problem of variation and unpredictability continues.

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16512
Good Answers: 670
#8

Re: Shrinkage of Molded Phenolic Composite Material

12/07/2013 3:27 AM

Suggest you measure a piece over an extended period of time and graph it. You may find it just keeps moving and you are chasing the impossible.
Del

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 98
Good Answers: 2
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Shrinkage of Molded Phenolic Composite Material

12/07/2013 6:35 AM

I did try that by marking about 12 spots on 3 - 4 pieces. But, measuring also becomes a problem due to warping and ovality, which keeps changing over a period. My worry is the change in dimensions after finish machining.

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16512
Good Answers: 670
#10
In reply to #9

Re: Shrinkage of Molded Phenolic Composite Material

12/07/2013 7:11 AM

You are missing the point.
Keep testing a finished part* and see if it ever stabilises. If it never stabilises, then there is no solution using that material and that design.
Del

If you had done that every day from when you first noticed the problem, you would know the answer already.

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Commentator

Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 98
Good Answers: 2
#11
In reply to #10

Re: Shrinkage of Molded Phenolic Composite Material

12/07/2013 7:39 AM

Del, I agree. But, the point is I can not afford any deviation beyond my tolerance limit 0.004" on diameters (assuming I keep some extra material during finish machining for shrinkage/warpage) after finish machining, which can be done max 2-3 days after rough machining. So, I have to do something to stop deviation beyond 0.004" even after a year.

Phenolic suits my requirement, readily available and is cheaper. Would appreciate if somebody could throw some light on stress relieving procedure for composites.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42355
Good Answers: 1693
#12
In reply to #11

Re: Shrinkage of Molded Phenolic Composite Material

12/07/2013 8:57 AM

Molding Compounds - Post-Baking
The above is general in nature.

I suggest slowly heating to just below the Tg (glass transition temperature) of your specific resin. This is different, depending on which type you are using. Comsult your data sheet.


Do NOT machine a solid rod. Start with a tube, the machining stresses will be less with a tube.You might try stress relieving the raw tubes, cut to length, then relieving again, after machining.


You should try stress relieving some tubes in mineral oil, this will help stabilize the heating and cooling process.


Finally, you may have to resort to stress relieving the tube in a constrained condition using a steel rod to control the ID and a steel sleeve to control the OD.


Ask your raw material supplier for help. The have more experience with their material than I do.


You may want to consider compression molding your own custom bushings to the finished size. This will help with the stresses, but drive the cost up.

Good luck.

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1601
Good Answers: 58
#13

Re: Shrinkage of Molded Phenolic Composite Material

12/07/2013 9:14 AM

If the parts are used in a stable temperature and humidity environment, they should be machined in that environment. Keep in mind that the humidity time constant will be long. I'm guessing that your problem is related to the time constant of moisture change in the parts. With a cross section of 0.5 inches, the moisture time constant could be months or even years. You may also find better results using mandrill wound fabric instead of flat material.

Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster #1
#14
In reply to #13

Re: Shrinkage of Molded Phenolic Composite Material

12/07/2013 11:34 PM

A mandrill is a kind of monkey; perhaps you mean mandrel.

--Ed. C.

Register to Reply
Register to Reply 14 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Poster (1); dkwarner (1); Humble Ess (3); lyn (3); Mike W (1); ozzb (1); user-deleted-1105 (3); welderman (1)

Previous in Forum: Dissolving Caustic Flakes   Next in Forum: Crystallization of Methamidophos

Advertisement