Previous in Forum: Water Treatment   Next in Forum: Grouting Cement
Close
Close
Close
20 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Guru
Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: NYC metropolitan area.
Posts: 3230
Good Answers: 444

Should Have Checked Those Soil Conditions Before Building!!

12/11/2013 7:39 PM
__________________
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” Ben Franklin.
Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42355
Good Answers: 1693
#1

Re: Should have checked those soil conditions before building!!

12/11/2013 8:09 PM

Too bad the local officials, building designers, building contractors and others involved weren't admiring it at the time.

I wouldn't want to live next door.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Iowa, USA
Posts: 577
Good Answers: 50
#2

Re: Should Have Checked Those Soil Conditions Before Building!!

12/11/2013 8:23 PM

This happened in 2009. And it was not a foundation failure, but a post construction of installation of a parking garage.

http://www.hoax-slayer.com/13-story-buliding-collapse-china.shtml

__________________
ignator -
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42355
Good Answers: 1693
#3
In reply to #2

Re: Should Have Checked Those Soil Conditions Before Building!!

12/11/2013 8:30 PM

Too bad the local officials, building designers, building contractors and others involved weren't admiring it at the time.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: by the beach in Florida
Posts: 33392
Good Answers: 1817
#4

Re: Should Have Checked Those Soil Conditions Before Building!!

12/11/2013 8:32 PM

I bet you could get a good deal on a place in one of the sister buildings....maybe they could put guide wires on them like they do those high rise antennas....nah that wouldn't work,,,,,,I know they could tee the buildings into a T shape, or for maximum stability an X shape.....

Maybe they should just stick to pyramid style buildings....

__________________
All living things seek to control their own destiny....this is the purpose of life
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: In the pool because it is too hot.
Posts: 3054
Good Answers: 141
#5

Re: Should Have Checked Those Soil Conditions Before Building!!

12/11/2013 8:50 PM

Someone slept for 4 years and woke up recently?

__________________
Plenty of room here
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - Old Salt Hobbies - CNC - New Member United States - US - Statue of Liberty - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Rosedale, Maryland USA
Posts: 5197
Good Answers: 266
#6

Re: Should Have Checked Those Soil Conditions Before Building!!

12/12/2013 7:49 AM

Apartment for rent Cheap!

__________________
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a pretty, pristine body but rather to come sliding in sideways, all used up and exclaiming, "Wow, what a ride!"
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Central Canada
Posts: 677
Good Answers: 28
#7

Re: Should Have Checked Those Soil Conditions Before Building!!

12/12/2013 11:08 AM

Everything used in that building was found off the shelf.

__________________
Smart as a post and twice as fast.
Register to Reply
Power-User
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: the sandbox
Posts: 341
Good Answers: 6
#8

Re: Should Have Checked Those Soil Conditions Before Building!!

12/13/2013 1:57 AM

hollow concrete piles with no rebar in them snapped due to lateral pressure.

was this designed by a 5 year old?

__________________
BSEE but always learning
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: In the pool because it is too hot.
Posts: 3054
Good Answers: 141
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Should Have Checked Those Soil Conditions Before Building!!

12/13/2013 5:01 AM

Those pilings are normally designed for that job everywhere in the world. Try to read the original post of 4 years ago. Buildings normally stand on these pilings. In Antwerp is a cathedral close to the river Scheldt, erected in the 14th century and standing on cow hides. (more than 120 m high)

This is an accident.

The other buildings around are still standing and straight up. Pics are taken with a fish eye lens. The soil excavations and weather (pore tension) are the cause.

That buildings looks pretty strong an well build. Normally you only have a collection of rubble, while the form is still pretty building looking like.

__________________
Plenty of room here
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Phnom Penh
Posts: 4019
Good Answers: 102
#11
In reply to #9

Re: Should Have Checked Those Soil Conditions Before Building!!

12/13/2013 6:45 AM

Those pilings are normally designed for that job everywhere in the world.....and they NORMALLY have rebar in them too.

Accident? Certainly was. One just waiting to happen.

Skimping on steel is a common cost cutting (mostly not sanctioned by customer) measure used by crooked builders. Hard to check once the concrete is poured. You have to be on their case and up their butts all the time.

Like all accidents its not an event but a series of unfortunate circumstances that lead up to a catastrophic failure sequence.

__________________
Difficulty is not an obstacle it is merely an attribute.
Register to Reply
Power-User
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: the sandbox
Posts: 341
Good Answers: 6
#10

Re: Should Have Checked Those Soil Conditions Before Building!!

12/13/2013 5:33 AM

dvmdsc, I must respectfully disagree. I just checked with a PHD struc eng., and he says the pilings should have rebar in them, in his words "even minimum rebar"

__________________
BSEE but always learning
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: In the pool because it is too hot.
Posts: 3054
Good Answers: 141
#13
In reply to #10

Re: Should Have Checked Those Soil Conditions Before Building!!

12/13/2013 12:23 PM

It all depends on the application. How they have been placed, what terrain, condition of the soil. There is a big selection of piles. If steel is required, they are usually (special corrosion proof) full steel to be "hammered" into the ground with special equipment.

These pilings are hollow because they are placed with suction equipment. Normally they provide a good stabilization. Concrete has a very good compression strength and that is how they are used ......for gravity and load.

Foundations only need steel where other loads and dynamic forces appear. Steel in foundations is not necessary everywhere.

When you undermine the base, everything collapses unless you use special techniques. Metros (underground) are installed, sometimes with freezing the base to not have shear in buildings around. This phenomenon is well known in ground mechanics. Soils or grounds are sampled and tested 3- axially, also in China.

This is not a tower of Pisa case...

If you are under 60, better start studying Chinese. They are our future bosses and their building engineering knowledge is at least at the same level or better than that of "the audience". Look at their bridges for example.

Rebar is prone to decay.

And concrete pilings with rebar inside are not supposed to be hammered into the soil.

They crack and shatter in the process.

Check e.g. Pieux Franky to find out what pilings are used and how they are placed.

The title of this post is pretty good, this is an existing building.

__________________
Plenty of room here
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - Member

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: ''but, don't we get PAID to ask questions?...''
Posts: 1661
Good Answers: 17
#18
In reply to #13

Re: Should Have Checked Those Soil Conditions Before Building!!

12/16/2013 11:29 PM

Actually, with reference to the ''Deep Foundation'' article in Wikipedia, prestressed concrete piles, with much internal steel reinforcement, including rebar and prestressed steel tendons, have long been driven deeply into soil, as foundation supports, singly and in groups...

__________________
''illigitimi non carborundum...''(i.e.: don't let the fatherless (self-deluding,sabotaging, long-term-memory-impaired, knee-jerking, cheap-shotting, mono-syllabic, self-annointed, shadow-lurking, back-biting, off-topic-inquisitors) grind you down...)
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - Member

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: ''but, don't we get PAID to ask questions?...''
Posts: 1661
Good Answers: 17
#19
In reply to #18

Re: Should Have Checked Those Soil Conditions Before Building!!

12/16/2013 11:52 PM

Alternately, Google:

the Post Tensioning Institute ,

the American Concrete Institute , and/or

the Federal Highway Administration

(yes, I know the apparent links don't ''link'' but ''googling'' will still get you there...)

__________________
''illigitimi non carborundum...''(i.e.: don't let the fatherless (self-deluding,sabotaging, long-term-memory-impaired, knee-jerking, cheap-shotting, mono-syllabic, self-annointed, shadow-lurking, back-biting, off-topic-inquisitors) grind you down...)
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: In the pool because it is too hot.
Posts: 3054
Good Answers: 141
#20
In reply to #19

Re: Should Have Checked Those Soil Conditions Before Building!!

12/17/2013 12:36 AM

I can imagine that in various countries, different rules apply. I only got involved in soil or ground mechanics in the university of Ghent. The only concrete piling to drive (with a steam- or hydraulic hammer tower) that was allowed had 2 concentric Corten steel pipes with the space between filled up with a high impact resistant concrete mix, made of quality pebbles and some quartz, comparable with about 3800- 4000 psi.

The pilings shown had only a web of mesh. The building also IMO had the weight divided by design over 2 blocks. When things go bad....

I have seen the hollow concrete pipes, placed with water downstream in sandy soil and also with vacuum systems. A different technique where a Archimed screw in the center transports the sand upwards, I haven't seen to work.

__________________
Plenty of room here
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 406
Good Answers: 3
#12

Re: Should Have Checked Those Soil Conditions Before Building!!

12/13/2013 11:00 AM

Building nap time?

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 268
#14

Re: Should Have Checked Those Soil Conditions Before Building!!

12/13/2013 4:40 PM

At least you don't need to use the stairs...

__________________
guds777
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ottawa Canada
Posts: 1975
Good Answers: 117
#15

Re: Should Have Checked Those Soil Conditions Before Building!!

12/14/2013 10:52 AM

SHANGHAI - The two top shareholders of a real estate firm responsible for developing the Lotus Riverside residential complex, where a nearly complete building fell to its side last year, were sentenced to life in prison on Wednesday.

The Shanghai No 1 Intermediate People's Court convicted 52-year-old Que Jingde, the second largest shareholder of the Shanghai Meidu Real Estate, on one charge of graft, while finding Zhang Zhiqin, 51, the largest shareholder in the firm, guilty on counts of graft, embezzlement of corporate funds and causing a serious accident.

Zhang's personal assets worth 5 million yuan and Que's 2 million yuan were also ordered to be confiscated.

__________________
If it was easy anybody could do it.
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - Member

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: ''but, don't we get PAID to ask questions?...''
Posts: 1661
Good Answers: 17
#16

Re: Should Have Checked Those Soil Conditions Before Building!!

12/14/2013 3:02 PM

This is what happens when money, politics, and impatience team-up to (try to) out-vote the forces of nature...

__________________
''illigitimi non carborundum...''(i.e.: don't let the fatherless (self-deluding,sabotaging, long-term-memory-impaired, knee-jerking, cheap-shotting, mono-syllabic, self-annointed, shadow-lurking, back-biting, off-topic-inquisitors) grind you down...)
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: In the pool because it is too hot.
Posts: 3054
Good Answers: 141
#17

Re: Should Have Checked Those Soil Conditions Before Building!!

12/14/2013 3:47 PM

Here is a lot of information about the accident, and also conclusions and reports. The picture gallery alone shows non exposed situations in this blog that might be enlightening. To copy and paste. All the links will enable you to form your opinion, and I guess there will be many variations.

https://www.google.bs/search?q=Shangay+tumbled+building+expertise&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=fflb&gws_rd=cr&ei=3busUqKELOzesASTn4DQDw#channel=fflb&q=shanghai+building+collapse+report&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

__________________
Plenty of room here
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 20 comments

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

1capybara (2); dvmdsc (5); guds777 (1); ignator (1); LongintheTooth (1); lyn (2); MR. Guest (3); Munster (1); ozzb (1); SolarEagle (1); Wal (1); Yusef1 (1)

Previous in Forum: Water Treatment   Next in Forum: Grouting Cement

Advertisement