Antikythera Mechanism

Very interesting. Boggles my mind!

It's amazing what they could do back then.

Rather than attempting to modernize our education system, we should probably be looking to the past.

Here's a working model:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/106028-Ancient-Greek-Computer-Recreated-in-Lego

That is some piece of work!

Just goes to remind me, never take the advances of science for granted... 2500 years from now we could be starting over.. again.

Ha! So there is Hope.

Hope... sure. Hope springs eternal. I dread the impact of miniaturization on our future archaeologists though. Could be tough to find anything much. Probably they'll think we were just a bunch of savages..... sigh.

Sanscrit texts speak of things more complex than this. Eastern history traces back 10's of thousands of years. Will anything more than bits of hydrocarbon chains from our plastics exist 1000 years from now? I doubt it.

A most interesting article! Thanks for posting it. We know the Greeks were quite clever. Hero of Alexandria created ingenious inventions to amuse such as the first steam engine. He is believed to have used the wittings of Ctesibius the father of pneumatics as a foundation of his work. What is the most interesting, is with all this sophistication, little was put to any practical use. Probably that is because who needed labor saving devices when you had slaves. As wth the Antikythera mechinism, the devices were probably funded by priests to prove their power.

When I see such wonders, I'm really proud for my ancient ancestors. I wish modern Greeks were so amazing too... ...

Well, you cannot expect a nation excel throughout the whole human history. Once upon the time Greece was in the center of the then civilized world. All nice things were happening around this general area and all nations would contribute to each other's prosperity, culture and scientific advances. Now the center of civilization has moved north-west. Tomorrow, who knows, Asia will be in the front-line.

Anyway, in order to come back to the subject, ancient Greeks had all the theoretical background to create machinery, but it seemed they didn't care to do it in any large scale. Most gadgets were for demonstration purposes or destined to be used as sophisticated toys (maybe the Antikythera Mechanism was such a "toy"; after all, one educated person - not only priests - could caclulate the eclipses and other stuff by hand). The reason they didn't get their hands dirty to materialize the theoretical thought, was that they couldn't get enough return, economically and militarily wise. Remember, Greece was in fact a bunch of small isolated city states, which didn't bother one for the other, unless for doing a battle here and a battle there just for a change. Ancient Greeks didn't even bother to create descent road networks or build huge buildings, as this would be uneconomical for the size of a city state and the size of the intra-Greece trade.

This changed after the Romans took over: A large empire would require the development of the technique and engineering, so much for the sake of Trading as for the sake of War (conquest and defence). So they perfected the war machines (Greeks already knew about them, but they were never really used them in warfare), the road construction, the multi-storey buildings, etc.

Nice putted, tkot. I agree that ancient Greeks didn't care so much about the implementation of their theoretical knowledge, at least in a large scale. Even their temples were absolutely beautiful and elegant but not so big (e.g. the structures of ancient Egyptians were much bigger). However, the Antikythera mechanism proves that they were able to do smart constructions -masterpieces of engineering-. Even in such cases, they didn't bother to do such constructions in large quantities. (Perhaps, there were, also, technical difficulties for doing so, leading to a high price for such things.) Probably, they had built just a few pieces (prototypes) as presents for kings or other rich and powerful people.

Probably, they had built just a few pieces (prototypes) as presents for kings or other rich and powerful people.

Exactly! After all the ship sank in the 1st century BC, i.e. during the Hellenistic - Roman Era. There were no much democracy, equality and other nice stuff by then, and most probably there were bloody rich people around (either Greeks or Romans) to order such gadgets for Xmas presents. (Ehmm, maybe not Xmas, but you get the point.)

It is sad to admit, but it is not brains that raises the living standards and/or advances technology. It's the economic/political system that takes most out of those brains and produces results. (And, usually it's NOT the "brains" that become rich in the end...) Unfortunately the Greek system was outdated by that time, as it wasn't efficient "economically-wise": Romans were better by scaling up the economy and maximizing throughput. Democracy (and especially Direct Democracy) as it was implemented in Athens was a nice thing, as it created many paradigms we use today (and mostly take for granted) but it was tailored for small communities, not for empires. It took some millennia until economic development and democracy could work together (probably in Britain at first).

Talking about economic inefficiency of Greeks, it is funny that there is a historical continuum to this:

Even Alexander the Great and his successors couldn't escape that paradigm and therefore failed to organize an empire the proper way (that's why it collapsed soon afterwards). Even during the Byzantine Era (the link between the ancient and modern Greece) and despite the wealth (and one might also add: cultural superiority comparing with the medieval west) there were no technological advances or public works destined to improve productivity or warfare. (Except perhaps the Greek-fire) One may find historical reasons for this, probably the fact this area was always the door-gate of the invaders from Asia - who by the way didn't require special war machines to be beaten, having no castles, etc. - and priorities were different. I don't know. But my point is that there are "cultural genes" that may make a nation excel in one point in history and the same "genes" condemn it to decay, when the environment changes. It is not the I.Q. or Divine Enlightment that makes the difference, unlike the widespread perception. (After all, every H.sapiens individual's brain, weighs about the same, doesn't it?)

To extend it a bit more, that's why I also believe that the today power of the west which is based mainly on democracy, education, welfare systems and the like, maybe it will collapse to other systems that sees all these as rather an obstacle and therefore can work more efficiently without them. Appalling prospect, but that's history. Maybe this process has already started, as worker's rights are shrivelling, politics are now run by powerful financial lobbies, etc. As we are shrinking the humanitarian education and focus mainly on productivity, then this is a historical necessity.

Nice historical analysis, tkot.

"To extend it a bit more, that's why I also believe that the today power of the west which is based mainly on democracy, education, welfare systems and the like, maybe it will collapse to other systems that sees all these as rather an obstacle and therefore can work more efficiently without them."

I hope that those other political systems will be even more democratic than the current ones. The wise use of technology could help us living in a more democratic way, closer to the "direct democracy" of the ancient Greece. And vice versa: More democracy is needed in order the technology to be used in a more wise and ethical way.

I agree with much of what you have stated except the invaders from Asia used no special war machines. They used a massive bombard, a precursor to the cannon. It may have been a turning point in siege technology. Small bombards had been used in Hungary but nothing like the one used in this siege. This may have been first instrumental use of gunpowder used against a siege. The cannon was massive since it used stone projectiles. They had discovered that balls made the best projectiles which were used for the next 400 years. Before bombards, spears were used in devices with little effect. The cannon was so large all the bridges had to be rebuilt and was drawn by 60 oxen.

You are correct in that if they did not have the cannons they would have won anyway. At that time the Ottomans were unstoppable. Many believe they would have conquered Europe had it not been for Dracula (Vlad). That story is as amazing as any in all of history.

I think success is eventually fatal. What concepts originally made the civilization great eventually go out of favor. The US has slowly become more permissive. Such as if you were caught stealing a pig, a common punishment for the first offense was to nail your ears to a whipping post and get so many lashes. My father got whipped for getting caught pitching pennies. I did note he had no back scars so his granddad who performed the deed was skilled with a whip. His father was dead and his mother was so upset she sent for her father to provide proper punishment. He came from Hamilton Canada to a town outside Buffalo. That was a good trip back then but gambling was evil. The adults would be in jail if that happened today. As it was, he didn't do that again while he lived under his mother's roof. I am actually not all that conservative or religious. Still it wasn't too long ago when a man's word was their bond now we expect the President of the United States to be a good liar. In the early 1700s captured officers where allowed to go free on the promise that they would pay their own ransom by a negotiated date. The amazing thing is a officer preferred to be put to death than lie about his ability to pay and how quickly he could make the payment. We view them as fools today. As a result, most countries have lawmakers selling their country down the toilet.

I believe Greeks would have thrived for centuries more had they not been in competition with Rome. The Romans were as clever at managing their civilization, as the Greeks were as clever thinkers. I do not think of the Romans as brilliant military strategists. What they did have was the ability to find their adversary's weak spot and successfully exploit it with ruthless voracity. All Roman generals exploited the fact most armies will come to stop the slaughter of their people. Caesar was more successful because of his army's ability to force march for days and fight a heated battle than tactical brilliance. He didn't make many big mistakes.

Yes, we are about as smart as we were 5,000 years ago. By then a new gene smart had 5,000 years for the 'mutants' to dominate the earth. Too many figure because people didn't have TV they must have been stupid. More than likely the reverse is true. De-evolution has been taking place of centuries.

Maybe this process has already started, as worker's rights are shrivelling, politics are now run by powerful financial lobbies, etc. As we are shrinking the humanitarian education and focus mainly on productivity, then this is a historical necessity.

Workers never had rights until recently except to get paid. If the pay wasn't worth it you could find another job and quit. As a result, you had child labor and all sorts of horrors. Still economically, we were in our prime. Now minimum wage will be $10/hr is the US in the foreseeable future. I do not begrudge the working do not get me wrong but I can assure you when a big Mac gets to $10 I will not be buying many. Look at the autoworkers. They have priced most of themselves out of jobs. When cars cost a few grand people were causal about buying a new one. Those days are gone. Yes, there are some auto workers making $75/hr but they are a small percentage of when the US was half the size it is now. When it costs $10./hr it will be cost effective to replace persons with robots. Our well-meaning government has put the future minimum wage earner out of work. Don't worry there are countries eager to do that work for less.

Generally I agree. Just some notes:

The cannons (able to do any real destructive work) which appeared during the siege of the Constatninople in 1453 was a novelty. The Byzantine empire had already a millennium of life until then, full of wars with enemies who would like to have their hands on its wealth, or otherwise get deeper to the European mainland and loot some weaker fellas.

Of course the empire would collapse anyway, after it was in a economic, military and moral decay at that time, and there was too much pressure from all around.

(As a side note, it is sad that the contribution of the eastern empire to the western security and civilization - the latter especially after the Fall - is not stressed in the western schoolbooks. "Byzantinism" is considered a bad term, mainly due to the negative comparison with to the Renaissance which followed, failing to compare apples with apples. Funny, but Charles the Great who has so much focus in the western history, was considered a "barbarian" in cultural terms by the Byzantines...)

As for whether Greeks could still thrive, should the Romans never turned up, I disagree! The glory of Greece was triggered by the unexpected victory over the Persians. Partially due to the recent finding of silver at the Lavrion quarries, which enabled them to make a fleet. Of course great minds followed, and direct (not to be confused with the nowadays "representative") democracy was a basic factor, but a sense of "self-confidence" and relative peace was also necessary. But, you cannot always be lucky like this. In order to survive in the Hellenistic era and beyond, you would need a robust system that maximizes resources, and this is what the Romans did by creating an empire on the proper military, legal and economic (but as it later turned out, also unstable) basis. On the expense of democracy of course, as this system could properly work with few people. Grecian mentality couldn't follow, as Greeks were (and still are) fragmented, too much individualistic and localistic just minding their own business. Possibly it's due to the relief of the country and/or the large constant emigration that created alienated communities. If they are left alone, they can sit under an olive tree and philosophize or just BS, but when things get rough (as they usually are), they cannot be as effective as they should be. (They are of course enduring and enough stubborn, so they still survive!)

As for the power at war, this is not (always) due to the endurance of the individual soldier. Take per instance the Spartan soldier who has historically been considered the model soldier. Still Sparta (as well as everybody else around) lost to the Romans. Military power also required wealth and technology, so a scaled up and centralized economy.

Yes, I concur. The Greeks, especially the Athenians probably had more trade than any other city in the world. That plus freedom put them way ahead of the rest of the world.

Rome was completely different. They were not all that free but know a good idea when they stole it and had remarkable ability to use these ideas well. They were the organizational genius of their time.

Neither civilization has never seen it's equal.

You guys might find this interesting.

http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/cato-journal/1994/11/cj14n2-7.pdf

Thanks!

So you are another history buff.

More and more. I'm learning a lot that wasn't covered in 1970's history class.

Reading about how the Romans did themselves in, and how we are just about moving step by step in the same direction, is pretty scary stuff.

It may already be too late to turn anything around...especially when so many voters have become dependent on government, in some way.

"In conclusion, the fall of Rome was fundamentally due to economic deterioration resulting from excessive taxation, inflation, and over regulation. Higher and higher taxes failed to raise additional revenues because wealthier taxpayers could evade such taxes while the middle class-and its taxpaying capacity-were exterminated. Although the final demise of the Roman Empire in the West (its Eastern half continued on as the Byzantine Empire) was an event of great historical importance, for most Romans it was a relief."

Sounds like today here in the USA.

Exactly.

But we're being fooled on who the "wealthy" are. We're being led to believe that business owners are the greedy and the wealthy, but the truth is, we'll never know the names of the people that are truly gaming the system, and working hand in hand with the politicians. These are the corporate elite...the people that finance campaigns, and are able to influence the political process, skimming hundreds of millions or billions out of the system, without really having to earn it.

Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are two of them, but there are lots more, and you never hear anything bad about any of them.

Money CAN buy happiness, power, influence and anonymity.

I think they're fooling themselves if they think they will be immune from the crash. These people think that they have amassed enough wealth and power, that the world can go to crap, and their families will be just fine for generations to come. I don't think it works like that.

I think it DOES work like that, at least for the upper 2% of the royalty, Congress, other insiders in government, Wall Street, hedge fun, lawyers and some others.

Small businesses, the remainder of the middle class and most others will suffer.

I think hope that land and property investments have bottomed out.

We've all lost a ton on housing and even property. That is those of us who didn't walk away from them.

It's worked that way for a long time, but we've reached a point where there is no more money left to steal from the working class.

Washington is still the biggest pork producer, with money going all over the place, but there's no tax base to cover it; it's all printed or borrowed. I read something about our debt, and I think it said that at our current spending/borrowing levels, in 20 years it will take all of the collected tax money, just to pay the interest on our debt. Can't remember if that was exactly it, but it was a scary scenario.

Sounds like the whole western world nowadays, it's just that some countries are a few steps front or back. Slow processes go generally UNNOTICED until it's too late to do something. And there's always the "conspiracy" reasoning. Somebody 's got to be behind all this. Can't be self-programmed, because it clearly leads to dead-ends. Can it? Anyway, too much info, hiding the truth, is no better than no info at all, so who knows? One thing is for sure. Monotonicity in progress (something like: things always advance forward), is a myth, and Antikythera Mechanism is live proof of that. S.M.

You are right about monotonicity: Think that in Ancient Greece and Rome, one could find complicated law and economic systems, even sewage. People were nurturing better and had better health and life expectancy. After the collapse of Rome, people (at least in the west for which I can speak of) lived for about 1000 years painting themselves blue and philosophizing on how many angels can fit on the head of a needle. If you asked them of course, they would agree that they live in the best place and time ever; not for the fear of resulting on a pyre if thinking otherwise, but because the (a-chronical) status they were living was the expression of a divine order serving a holy purpose. There was little to question about it.

I wonder if the world is slipping towards such a mentality nowadays as well. Somehow we do believe we live in a world that needs not change. If you take aside technology and science (which BTW, work more and more simply for economic/military benefit), there are no revolutionary advances in philosophy, arts, economy or even politics.Especially now that the world is in a constant political/social turmoil, economic crises follow one another and the environment is dying, it is vital to make our brains start spinning again.

There are people who recognize how America is headed down the path of the Romans...they are touted as 'conspiracy theorists', Tea Party fanatics, etc. There is a world-wide movement that seeks to enlighten but because of their open minded approach to things we don't understand and their non-science interviews with holistic and other approaches to life on this planet, are characterized by people who refuse to listen to a video they publish and put online for free. Check out 'thrivemovement.com',

I bookmarked it.

I may not agree with every little movement or opinion, but there is a lot of overlap happening from very disparate sources. Regardless of the source, if they are reporting things that are factual, and can show it, I don't care who they are.

There are people who recognize how America is headed down the path of the Romans...they are touted as 'conspiracy theorists', Tea Party fanatics, etc

I am not so sure about that. I figure most persons are sensible to figure out the US is going down the tubes, still the majority think they can all get something for nothing.

I think they're fooling themselves if they think they will be immune from the crash.

Agreed, my grandfather was wealthy before Black Friday. He lost his stock and all his savings. No one wanted to hire an over 50 ex company president. My definition of over qualified is when the manager who is hiring, fears you could do his job better than he. The only thing he had going for him was he had paid cash for his roomy house. They survived by renting the 3 kids bedrooms out to borders and the kids, all in their teens made small change. Most large portfolios have T-bills. These might survive the crash.