Lightning Causes ELCB Tripping

Bypass the ELCB.

Yah, GREAT idea!

THanks for the reply. I thought ELCB and RCD are the same thing. Anyway, I just made a check, it is already a RCCB ( a type of RCD) .

You should retain a professional to evaluate the problem.

"I thought ELCB and RCD are the same thing" is not a good sign.

"I just made a check, it is already a RCCB ( a type of RCD)" is an indication that you didn't investigate this properly.

Hire some competent help.

A specific reply of technical nature will be more helpful .

You should retain a professional to evaluate the problem.

Your history speaks volumes about your competence.

" Bypass the ELCB" !!!

You should refrain from speaking in area where you clearly do not have competence!

You don't have an ELCB.

Good luck.

You don't know what is an ELCB, but you want to give advice!

Bad habit !

Maybe you could enlighten us as to the difference between a RCD and an ELCB. They are two distinct beasts.

On Wiki search , they are the same. Old generation ELCB is based on voltage , newer generation is based on current difference. Manufcturers later use the RCD and RCCB to distinguish the two .

HAHAHA!!!

OK, so you didn't understand the difference between an ELCB and an RCD until I provided my information. You now believe you have one of the huge number of high sensitivity RCCB available on the market. I do not see in this thread an understanding by you of the fundamentals of electric power distribution nor the patience to attempt to grasp all of the information given to you. It looks to me that you expect one of us can remotely solve your problems with a few key strokes. We cannot do that.

To solve your problem safely, much more information must be known than you have provided us. This is why you need a qualified individual to examine your power distribution. Much more needs to be known to safely proceed. You already misidentified the class of devices falsely tripping to us. You have yet to show us any comprehension why a high sensitivity RCCB powers your refrigerator. Depending on what you have you might be able to safely bypass the RCCB to power the refrigerator, replace the existing RCCB with a less sensitive unit, replace the RCCB with a simple thermal-magnetic breaker or have to run a permanent dedicated power line to your refrigerator.

I do not have the patience to play 20 questions with somebody that will not play well with others.

Good Luck.

Actually, I was not wrong to think that ELCB and RCD are the same, pls see my reply #14. The term ELCB is more commonly used here.

The RCCB is not used just for the fridge, it is for the whole house. It is very unusual to use a RCCB just for a fridge!

30mA sensitivity for home is regulatory standard, can't change .

I was hoping someone who has similar experience , which I beleive there are, and had found a simple solution, perhaps , there are already a brand or model which solve this problem, or there may be some filter you can buy and add to your distribution board or other simple solution . Obviously, engaging a pro is far way out !

Here you will get mostly answers as they fit for North American Electrical Problems.

Other countries may have different solutions and standards: as far as I recall, houses can be equipped with e.g. 300 mA for the total distribution panel and sensitive areas like bath room can have individual protecton e.g as low as 10 mA. The values given are just an indication and might differ from country to country.

Thanks for the input. Here we closely follow the BS standard and IEC standard.

Strange , the experts who set the standards in differnt prt of the world can differ by 10 times , on something as serious as electric shock prevention.

I think, at 300mA, you already have very serious voltage leakage , yet the protection does not work yet , this I dont understand.

Copying here text from Wikipedia - "...Whole installations on a single RCD, common in the UK, are prone to 'nuisance' trips that can cause secondary safety problems with loss of lighting and defrosting of food. Invariably the trips are caused by deteriorating insulation on heater elements such as water heaters and cooker elements or rings. Although regarded as a nusiance the fault is with the deteriorated element and not the RCD: replacement of the offending element will resolve the problem; replacing the RCD will not."

G.A.

I recalled having one electric oven which will trip after turning on for a few minutes. My problem is likely of the same nature, the heater element already has some leakage, when a voltage spike came, the leakage current shoot up, causing the trip.

Thanks for the good and very relevant post .

There we go, you've answered your own question. If you think a voltage surge is the cause of your problem, then you need some sort of suppression.

yes , that is the easiest solution . Thanks to the post by fawazrac, which pvovide the lead, I hope I will nail this problem.

I would have a look at BS7671 Rev2 (2011) before making sweeping statements like that.

The current standard is for the loads to be split between two RCD's. The lighting for the ground floor will be alongside the power for the first floor.

High integrity boards take it a step beyond. By using RCBO's circuits like fridge freezers can be individually RCD protected.

Ideally, the fridge should have its own RCCB. But the electrical code here does not provide that, because, home owner can plug the fridge into any power socket. Most people here dont build their homes but buy from devlopers. If one is building his own home, he should have a few RCCB for different area .

Your post 3rd para was spot on. What irks me most, some people keep forgeting those basic common sense rules you mentioned.

I'm not religious, but 'amen"! GA!

Entire discussion seems to have gone off at a tangent into discussing ELCB, RCD, RCCB etc.

Do you have a lightning arrestor to bypass lightning strikes to ground? I suppose it must be connected to ground. Now the equipments are also grounded.But I would expect both the grounds to be kept separate- if not due to any small resistance even in resistance path- if lightning currents are large- large voltages can develop even here- which could possibly in differential currents in P & N and thus ELCB could be tripping. I am in Bangalore and do not have such problems- but just guessing. May be I could put you in touch with a company selling lightning arrestor systems. Recently I came to know of proactive lighting arrestors - a very interesting concept from this company !!!!!

Did you try "Hi-sensitivity" Type ELCBs?

Not allowed to use higher setting ELCB.

THe problem , I beleive was probably due to reason as stated in my last post.

ELCB (Earth Leakage Circuit breaker ) also called as shock guards is a voltage sensing operating system.In case of line voltage come in contact with metal body ( some one accidentally come in contact with the metal body of any electrical equipment which has a leakage current and the same is used it may cause fetal electrical shock or even death )the leakage voltage passes to earth through the device and the circuit is instantly tripped for safety . ELCBs are voltage operated and mainly used in TT earthing system. This system has a disadvantage of nuisance tripping and being replaced by RCCB.
The RCDs (Residual Current Device) or RCCB (residual Current Circuit Breaker ) are current sensing protection devices and are one and same . They give safety against earth leakage current only. They do not operate on normal over loads and for that purpose MCBs have to be installed in the circuit in addition to RCCB.

If your earthing system of the house is not proper there is possibility of a leakage current on the body of the electrical main earth of your switch and will cause tripping of the ELCB . Better check up your earthing of the house so that the problem will be sorted out. You may better replace the ELCB with RCCB also. Check up the earth value of your house. In locations where Lightening is regular and lightening protection of the Distribution system is not proper these complaints happen. It will be better if you install lightening protection for your house if it is independent house. But for Apartment complexes they provide proper earthing systems and lightening protection in such locations( Mostly tropical sea side locations where lightening is severe before Monsoon) ).

All the ELCBs used in the domestic purpose are RCCB (Residual Current Circuit Breaker) which works on residual current detection and for higher ampere load (more than 100 Amp) capacity we use RCD with separate CBCT to sense the residual current. ELCB is the old name used for the device when the actual leakage current was measured from the grounding/earthing wire, in the olden times.

You are mistaken! I did not mean higher setting ELCB. For the same sensitivity of 30mA, you can get a hi-sensitivity type ELCB too,

Bravo88-

What I think you missed in one of RedFred's response was a suggestion that you may have to run a separate power for the fridge to avoid food from being spoiled... which I think will solve one of your problems?

Additionally, what I can suggest for you to do is to check and revalidate your house grounding system. Be sure to check the ground integrity on every appliances, outlets, contact resistances between the plug-outlets etc. See to it that the total does not exceed the 500 milli-Ohm threshold. I believe you have a grounding systems that are sitting on differing ground planes, which is a contributing factor of the false tripping and unnecessary power interruption! Ultimately, you may need to add a redundant permanent ground wires to those high leakage appliances of yours! As the equipment gets older, the higher their leakage current develops !

Yes, having a RCCB just for fridge will solve my problem, but difficult to implement.

since RCCB works on current differnce, I think the grounding quality is not the cause. Te grounding quality affects the amount of leakage current but not the difference .

Dear Friend you may consider this tripping as a blessing in disguise.If the ELCB has not tripped probably your Fridge or other electrical appliance which was connected would have burned out.Even there was a chance of your house wiring itself would have burnt out. Now you are only loosing the contents of the fridge. This I have stated after witnessing many many such damages reported by residents staying in locality where summer thunder exists. This problem most of the Engineers working in US or Europe may not understand( except those working at Arizona in US where thunder is a regular occurrence). During thunder in monsoon the entire earth will remain good conductor hence lightening discharge to earth is easy and fast and all earthing systems will be in good working condition. The thunder just before monsoon after very hot Summer is more dangerous and damaging because of dry conditions of Earth and lack of proper maintenance of the earth pits and connection.

Those Electrical Engineers working in maintenance of Ammunition Factory and Ammunition Depots have to maintain three separate earthing for LP system (Lightening Protection) , Static Earthing , and regular Electrical body Earthing .

The record of Earth values have to be maintained in proper registers, which shows the importance of local Earthing for protection

You confused earth leakage with lightning strike protection

There is nothing to be confused . ELCB is a shock guard and Lightening protection is a device to give easy pass to the lightening surge voltage to earth.

In your case The ELCB is tripping when a Lightening strikes at your near vicinity which normally should not happen.

The reason for such a tripping is while lightening strikes your body earth of your system gets electrically charged. This causes the tripping of the ELCB. This fault is dangerous one as this can cause damage to your electrical equipments and wiring.

The correct solution is to install proper lightening protection for your building

If your LT distribution system is through bare OH lines and if those lines are not protected with proper Lightening protectors ( Lightening Arresters)then also lightening surge voltages will be passed on to your house wiring which causes damage to your electrical equipments and wiring .

You will understand the reason for tripping if you clearly understand the principle of working of ELCB which is described in a laymen language below.

ELCB is a voltage operated circuit breaker. The device will function when the Current passes through

the ELCB. Voltage coil .ELCB contains relay Coil which is connected to the metallic body at one end and it is connected to ground wire at the other end.

If the body of the electrical equipment body get leakage voltage (by touching Phase wire to metal Part due to failure of Insulation of Equipment) which could cause the difference between earth and load body voltage, the danger of electric shock will occur. This voltage difference will produce an electric current from the metallic body of the electrical equipment and passes through the relay loop and to earth. When voltage on the equipment metallic body increase to the danger level which exceed to 50Volt, the flowing current through relay loop could move the relay contact by disconnecting the supply current to avoid from any danger electric shock.

The ELCB detects fault currents from live to the earth (ground) wire within the installation it protects. If sufficient voltage appears across the ELCB's sense coil, it will switch off the power, and remain off until manually reset. A voltage-sensing ELCB does not sense fault currents from live to any other earthed body.

Many here already said voltage based ELCB were old generation of ELCB used long ago. New generation ELCB are current differnce triggered. These ELCB were enamed RCCB or RCD .

Lightning strike does not produce cuurent difference in RCCB, earth leakage does.

What you said is a known fact and known to all Electrical Engineers. What I was trying to make you understand is that you are not realising the fact that weather you use ELCB or RCCB or RCD, you are in problem if you do not root out your original problem of surge voltage developed in your wiring system due to lightening. That can be removed only by installing LP system. This I am telling you from my 50 years of experience in maintaining Electrical system in Lightening prone area of India. In US they do not experience this problem because their OH distribution lines are all insulated cable unlike in India and they do not provide ELCB or RCCB for their domestic wiring. This I know because I am in US for the past 10 years. So it is for you to solve your problem. Best of luck.

I don't believe I've ever seen an overhead power line that used insulated wire/cable (that is wire with some covering on the wire/cable), for any voltage over 1kV. The 12kV lines feeding my neighborhood are definitely bare, and the ozone created by the higher voltage lines would destroy any practical insulation in far less than the expected lifetime of the cable.

Furthermore, I don't believe there exist any insulated coverings for wire/cable that would withstand a direct hit by lightning. If such a covering does exist, it would add so much weight to long spans that it would not be practical.

You are right the insulated wire is for voltage up to 1 kV for OH distribution and not beyond unless it is special requirement .For 11 kV and 33kV distribution in industrial area we use under ground cable .For higher voltage above 1 kV Lightening arrestors are provided always to safe guard the HT distribution system as a mandatory requirement and it protect the OH lines from lightening surges. But in developing countries LT( up to 1 kV) distribution is with ACC or ACSR non insulated conductors and those systems are so large and through country side and even in city . The maintenance staff cannot cope up with timely replacement of defective LP and Earthing protection religiously and this cause the problem. Every house or Apartment complex are supposed to have their own independent earthing and LP system but the residents do not maintain them and also add these problems. Even timely rewiring is not carried out even though they are supposed to be replaced after 15 years after mandatory checking for safety and found to be unsafe. Many residents ignore it as they do not feel the importance of it and even say it is unwanted expence . The population is is large and housing is not organised as in US.

Certainly a lightning surge suppression system seems wise here, but this is not the root problem. The problem is that we have an individual that does not accurately recognize household power distribution equipment in the first place. We should notice that nowhere in this discussion has any previous failed attempts to fix this annoyance exist. As far as we know this residence has improperly assembled or damaged components of a lightning protection system that the OP doesn't even know about. We have no reliable data on grounding systems, grounding measurements, soil conditions, building elevation, building construction, or anything else relevant to lightning. We don't even know why somebody in the house with a flash light cannot just go to this breaker and reset it after the storm but before food spoils.

It is the reality which the Op does not understand.

"We don't even know why somebody in the house with a flash light cannot just go to this breaker and reset it after the storm but before food spoils."

Read the OP's post again. His problem is the RCD trips when nobody's home.

Bottom line is he can't entirely avoid nuisance trips. But he can recover from them without a loss, even when he's not at home. An auto-reset RCD will repeatedly scan the load and reconnect as soon as the fault has passed.

Problem solved!

You're correct, with the vast number of replies I overlooked that the original post states that no one will be home. The original post also identifies the wrong type of breaker in the home and asks for a simple solution. Nobody at all mentioned the simplest solution. Befriend a neighbor to reset the breaker when away from the house. Offer to do the same when they are away.

Probably he is scared to hand over the key to the neighbor.Or the neighbor may be scared to keep his keys.

Pls go back to re-read my replies. I was not wrong to say ELCB, pls see post #15.

Your proposal was not the most cost effective one.

Pls see my post #62. Thanks to some post here, I found a low cost, easily implenmentable solution .

The cheaper and more effective solution is a voltage spike suppressor. Pls see my reply #62

Thanks for your suggestikon. I found a cheapr and better solution . Pls see my post #62

I think you have some seriously wrong understanding about ligntning protection. Ligntning protection offers a low resistance path to lightning discharge, preventing damage to parts of building ( e.g. from explosion caused by quick water vaporisation by discharge current ) . Ligntning protection does not protect or suppress voltage spike in power line , arisiing from far away .

After reading some post here and doing some thinking, I believe the problem I had was due to the following :

All electrical appliances and home wiring has a finite resistance/ earth leakage. When there is lightning, even without directly striking the power supply line, a voltage spike will be induced in power line , the earth leakge current will also spike. If the earth leakage spike current exceed the RCCD setting , it will cause the RCCD to trip.

So, the simplest solution is to install a voltage spike suppresor at the incoming power supply line.

In contrast, even if you have a super good Lightning protection, this system , since it does not suppress voltage spike, the earth leakage current will spike and exceed tripping current.

bravo88,

RCCB also is operated when a coil inside the RCCB is energized. This is because of the voltage induced in the toroid coil when a residual current exists in the load circuit.

The ELCB installed in your home also should be a RCCB. The nuisance tripping happens on in your home by the secondary discharge or of induced surge voltage across a current carrying object (especially the final distributed wiring in roof ceiling). Why it is being happened only in your home is of the many following, but not limited, reasons.

• The roof of your home may be elevated higher than other bldgs.
• The location of the switch board may more closer to the External wall of you home; others may not be.
• Your switchboard, which is normally metallic, may not be grounded properly.
• A long tree may exists outside your home,with close proximity to the switch board location.
  

I have ordinary breakers in my house which was built in the 1970s. It has a separate breaker for the fridge, and a separate one for the freezer. It may not be code, but it's a good idea. When something pops another breaker in the kitchen, the food doesn't spoil.

agree.

Replace it with one that has built-in recloser. The automatic resetting function allows reclosing of the earth leakage protection device after clearance of the fault and following insulation monitoring.

Auto-reset RCD

These aren't cheap, but the cost of a freezer full of frozen fillet mignon would more than cover the investment.

yes, this can be one solution, thx for the link.

With any other solution, as good as it may be, you only need one glitch to put your fridge out of business. This one will try over and over again to restore the power.

On many of the out lying villages fed from over head wire systems and operating as TT the area board permitted 100mA RCDs to be used in place of 30mA to get rid of nuisance trips It really depends what the purpose of the RCD is. If your earth loop impedance is high as it is with TT you can supplement the system with an RCD. The 30mA RCD is intended to give life protection something the 100mA can't.

If this happens regularly I would give serious thought to surge arrestors on the circuits.

What does TT means?

TT code is

The Supplier provides no Earth , You have to provide your own Earth Spike at your premses.

Earthing systems are defined using the five letters T (direct connection to earth or terra in Latin), N (neutral), C (combined), S (separate) and I (isolated from earth).

The first letter denotes how the transformer neutral (supply source) is earthed while the second letter denotes how the metalwork of an installation (frame) is earthed. The third and fourth letters indicate the functions of neutral and protective conductors respectively. There are three possible configurations:

1) TT: transformer neutral earthed and frame earthed.

2) TN: transformer neutral earthed, frame connected to neutral.

3) IT: unearthed transformer neutral, earthed frame.

The TN system includes three sub-systems: TN-C, TN-S and TN-C-S.

In TT system, the supply source has a direct connection to earth. All exposed metallic parts of an installation also are connected to an earth electrode that is electrically independent of the source earth.

Mr. Guru as you told it happened during the thunderstorm so I think its happened due to loose configuration of your ELCB. If its happen in a normal day then there is two reason first either Ig(ground voltage or current) is getting a current from anywhere else or your ELCB phase current ie. Ia, Ib, Ic is not balance (not Ia+Ib+Ic=0) so Ig getting the current from your ELCB phase current. So you should change the EBCL or consult the nearby technician who know about this

Is there a possibility of rain water getting through the connectors/wiring in some exposed fitting on roof etc.?

After all the banter I was going to suggest the same thing. It should be part of the consideration when talking about electricity.

Lighting might not be the fault here.

Baah you beat me to it! GA.

Testing . Strange , I cant post, my post went missing.

Problem disappears.

How did you fix your problem?

I too am facing the same issue (been so for years infuriatingly)

My case happens never during normal-day case, but only there's thunder. I mentioned thunder, and not thunderstorm (downpour) because before rain drops sometimes this can happen. It can trigger multiple times when there's thunder, including very inaudible mild thunder from the far distant. It can also [b]NOT[/b] trigger at all when there's very loud thunder or throughout an entire thunderstorm that lasts for hours.

So I'd say, 70-80% it triggers during a thunder session.

With this kind of trigger data, what are the possible causes? My house is a bungalow with 3 phase power.

I'm from Malaysia, we use 240V.

I'm Michael fr malaysia. Tripping is also my major problem especially when I'm not at home. My alarm system, CCTV and electric gate all depends on electric source. Whenever lightning strike, ELCB tripped and then all safety and monitoring device fail to function. I asked electrician and read ur comments. Finally I decided to change my ELCB to a more stable and reliable brand with 63A. However the tripping event still persist. Although seems slightly lesser. But once I'm at out station. I will get worried regarding my house's safety. Any other action that I can perform? Thank you very much

63A is the load current carrying capacity of the ELCB. It has nothing to do with the tripping due to leakage. Can you find out other details of the breaker, like mA, type etc of the ELCB that you have newly replaced?

"Any other action that I can perform?"

Yes Michael, there is. Replace it with one that has a built-in automatic resetting function which automatically restores power after clearance of the fault.

Auto-reset RCD

They cost more money, but the cost of a prolonged loss of power would more than cover the investment.

First of all, thanks for prompt reply =) the ELCB that I used previously is wynex supplied by developer.. Currently :hager is the brand in used. CF 463B with 63A. I will go and find auto-reset RCD in my region. Thanks again.

"CF463B"

the newly installed ELCB (RCD is the right name) is with lower sensitivity (only 300 milliamps). It means there is real leakage of more than 150mA which force the ELCB to trip.

Schneider has "si" type ELCB (RCD) which is having the impulse withstand capacity, pls check with supplier in your local area.

Size of the self reset type ELCB is much bigger; check space in your board to accommodate it. Circutor has the product.

elcb(trip switch) has no promise to off at lightning.when the phase current leak to the earth and it will trip. but at the thundeastrom voltage of our power supply line increaseto many thousands and it will come to the home as a spike.this spike want to be neutral imedeatly.so it search a plase quickly forgo to the earth. this spike can earth by a short spark about 1-2 centimiter. at this moment the spike is connect to the earth means also the phase current connet to the earth. if it is the trip swith must off.