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Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/18/2014 3:20 PM

Normally I am fairly good at finding technical reference info online but this one seems to have me beat.

I am looking for bellhousing bolt pattern blue prints for the engines that International and Ford used over the years however in the pursuit of collecting technical info I will take anything else I can find as well!

Anyone know of anybody who has such a reference libraries on a computer file some place?

What I am finding online seems to be very limited.

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#1

Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/18/2014 4:14 PM

My guess is that anyone who has a business that has reverse engineered these, is most likely selling adapters to translate between different engines and transmissions, and will have no interest in giving their "crown jewels" away for free.

Unless you can contact the engine manufacture directly with the idea that you are going to use their engines in some machine your making. Let's hope you get lucky with someone here who has this info.

This youtube may be of some value if this is similar to what your trying to do:

chevy to Cummins adapter

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#2

Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/18/2014 4:35 PM

If you're going to find it, it's going to be through one of the file sharing sites.

It's kinda like visiting a prostitute...

You might walk away with a smile on your face and be fine, or you might pick up something you can't get rid of.

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#3

Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/18/2014 4:45 PM

I'm not really working with anything new by any means. The problem is I can find piles of bell housing bolt pattern pictures and drawings but so few have any labeling on them to say what engines they belong to its frustrating.

So far I have all of the SAE patterns from #1 - #6 and the Ford small block (Windsor Pattern) and Ford big block (335/385 Pattern). What I would like is the international SV and MV patterns plus the more recent Ford modular pattern for their V8 and V10 engines.

All of these engines have been around for decades and are all common units that have been used in countless aftermarket engine/transmission combinations so their specs shouldn't be top secret by any means.

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/18/2014 5:27 PM

You'd be surprised at how these companies have clamped down on their intellectual property floating around on the internet. It doesn't.

I don't know how close you are to a Ford dealership, but that is probably your best bet.

Bring your wife, and tell them you will leave when you get a copy of the pattern.

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#5
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Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/18/2014 6:09 PM

I'm pretty sure our local Ford guys can help me out.

It's the old International small and medium block V8 patterns I am looking for.

I can't see them having much concern over their specs being those engines have not been made for almost 35 years and the original company itself no longer exists.

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#6
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Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/18/2014 6:36 PM

Most of them have removed intellectual property from the internet...even if they have no use for it.

The paranoia runs deep. If it was out there, you would have found it.

The Chinese are sucking up anything and everything that's available.

I run into this pretty regularly. Easy, old stuff is nowhere to be found.

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#7
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Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/18/2014 6:59 PM

Fortunately my wife is an Autocad wizardess so if I can get her the bolt to bolt and crankshaft to bolt measurements she can extrapolate the full patterns out of the for me then do a crankshaft centered overlay of each to make a proper adapter plate drawing for me that I can then have my brother machine out the bolt patterns for on his CNC table.

Still have to take the damn things apart and measure them first though.

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#8

Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/18/2014 7:11 PM

International Trucks has a Face Book page. You might want to ask there.

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#9

Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/18/2014 7:20 PM
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#11
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Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/18/2014 7:36 PM

Looking for this for the International engine bell housing bolt patterns.

This ones for the Ford Windsor pattern.

I'm already a member over at Red Power Magazine and so far I have got nothing from anyone. Granted threads like this can take weeks to get a reply over there.

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#10

Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/18/2014 7:26 PM

The only thing I can add is as follows;

Ford Windsor have 2 bolt patterns the early 260's have a 5 bolt pattern, which was replaced by the 6 bolt pattern for 289, 302,351.

For the Canadian I6 (60's F100/250/350 260cu, 300cu) has the same pattern as the Cleveland V8 (335/385)

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#12

Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/18/2014 7:46 PM

What I am pondering on is that I have a good International 345 V8 and a few good Ford transmissions. One good condition Ford C6 with the Windsor pattern and a good E4OD with the modular pattern.

I have a old 1985 F150 that would be a fun DR Frankenstein winter project to put the old IH engine in or put it in my wife's 99 Ford F250 super duty.

The 99 F250 would be the fun one being the old 345 had no trouble moving the old 1958 dump truck down the road loaded with gravel to the tune of 26,000#'s!

Moving the 7500# 99 F250 would be a breeze for it with the modern electronic transmission behind it.

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#13
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Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/18/2014 8:08 PM

The fun part would be finding a torque convertor plate to fit the IH345, maybe from an Allison transmission fitted IH truck?

In Oz the 345 that was fitted to IH trucks were to New Process or other Spicer/Fuller/Eaton manual gearboxes. They were fitted to both Bonneted C/D series and Cabover (Butter box and ACCO) trucks. I don't think I've ever seen one with an automatic transmission.

I had plans for my ol 78 F100, it involved a Perkins 6354 diesel with a 5 speed ACCO box. I still have the motor and box...

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#14
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Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/18/2014 8:13 PM

I'm pretty good at making custom parts so my thoughts were to make the needed crankshaft spacer out of steel and machine the original Ford torque converter flex plate to fit it and weld them together. By doing that I can keep the Ford starter and ring gear alignment and bolt patterns in their stock locations.

I have a Smithy 1340I lathe/mill machine so the adapter bushings and stuff is not so hard to do.

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#26
In reply to #14

Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/19/2014 5:44 PM

Hi

Starter motor mount on the 345 is cast in so ford ring gear diameter might not be right and starter motor might not fit in the mounting hole.

In Australia plenty of these 345/392 came out with Allison 6 speed transmissions (Fire trucks/ garbage trucks etc). I have plenty of bell housings but to measure them accurate enough for an adapter plate is not easy. But over here they fit 345/392 to their tractors for the tractor pulls so a request on there page might get results. Also 6354 Perkins adaptor plate fits the IH pattern so a search there might be useful

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#27
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Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/19/2014 6:30 PM

The starter is not an issue. I have a plasma cutter and a grinder that can fix that problem in about 5 minutes.

I have a 304 stuffed away the shop so if I have to I can split it and get the dimensions off of that.

I was just hoping to find this sort of info online. Oh well I guess when I get to it I will have to post it myself.

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#21
In reply to #12

Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/19/2014 8:21 AM

So if you have the engines and trans that you want to play with, why not just measure them?

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#24
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Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/19/2014 10:41 AM

Their still in the vehicles otherwise I would have.

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#15

Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/18/2014 8:56 PM
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#16
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Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/18/2014 9:06 PM

Well I have already been to those and countless sites like those but have yet to find any that give actual measurements for the bell housing bolt patterns. That's the searching problem.

I need them in a format like what I showed in post 11. Standard dimensional numbers from a common reference point like the center of the crankshaft.

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#17

Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/18/2014 11:51 PM

.

Trans- dapt,and Lakewood are two names of companies that manufacture custom bell-housings. They may be able to help, or steer you in the correct direction. Some info I remember, The 351 Cleavland used one pattern, and the 351Midland, and the 400 used the same pattern as the 429-460.

One of my all time favorites was a transmission swap between two different motors in a Pinto. When I compared the aluminum plate that Ford used between the engine and transmission, all of the bolt holes lined up, so the swap was good. Or so I thought. The hollow dowels that are used to keep the two aligned were different OD. Only when I had the trans a half inch away did the dowels stop me. Eventually, I pulled out the dowels, bolted it tight. and cursed at Ford for a month. Why would they decide to let the bolt pattern, and the bolt size remain the same, but change the dowel size?

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#49
In reply to #17

Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

05/07/2014 11:18 AM

hi bob, you mentioned an issue similar to what I am currently dealing with on a ford 4r100 which for some reason has an alignment dowel on the opposite side of the bellhousing , preventing it from mounting flush. Do you have any pointers as to the best way to remove the dowel?

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#51
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Re: Looking for engine bell-housing bolt pattern blueprints

05/16/2014 1:46 AM

On my albatross it had a hollow alignment dowel, so it was easy to find the seam on the dowel, and squeeze it with a vice grips. Once they were smaller, they came out with fingers. If yours is a solid one, the vise grips on the round surface, or a small pipe wrench. Then try to turn it as if it were threaded into the block. Lots of penetrating oil will help.

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#18

Re: Looking for engine bell-housing bolt pattern blueprints

01/18/2014 11:58 PM

I seem to recall that the light duty Internationals used Chrysler Torque -Flights in Scouts, Carry-alls, and pick ups.

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#19

Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/19/2014 12:45 AM

Tcm If my memory serves me correctly about 10 years ago we took a 345 and put an AOD Ford tranny in my brothers scout. We got an adaptor from Trans Dap, the combo is still running strong and does the highway a whole lot better with the extra gear. Also have you tried the transmission suppliers, every time we start to rebuild a different trans we also purchase a complete manual for that trans and in almost all of them they give the drawing with measurements to check the case for damage or improper machine work. That may be where you can look. If you cant find anything in your neck of the woods IM me and let me know which patterns you need and I will see if they have them here. The trans supply house we use is called WIT tramsmissions (what it takes) they only sell new and rebuilt parts and some complete trans for cores. Duke

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#20
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Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/19/2014 5:22 AM

THanks!

As I mentioned earlier I have the SB and BB Ford patterns but I have yet to find the Ford Modular pattern for the E4OD transmission or the International SV patterns for the 345 engine.

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#22
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Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/19/2014 9:02 AM

I have never seen the E4OD behind the mod motor only the AOD, 4R70, & 4R70WE. The only thing that I have seen the E4OD in was the Windsor powered vans and some diesel powered pickups but not Mod motor vehicles. That's not to say they didn't do it, I just have not seen it. The only vehicles that I have with mod motors are my two 95 & 98 Mark VIII's and my wife's 98 Town car. Wait I may be wrong that dully might have had a 4R100 memory is a little shady there as I did not buy that truck the guy thought it was still worth what one running was worth and it had 400,000 miles on it was not going to be a good return on investment in the end. Duke

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#25
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Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/19/2014 10:50 AM

Fords E4OD and 4R100 are physically the same transmissions but the 4R100 has added speed sensors so technically you are right.

The transmission for the modular engine bolt pattern is a 4R100.

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#23
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Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/19/2014 9:14 AM

Just as an after thought you might try the machine shop manuals for the Engine Rebuilders Assoc, they just might have the info and drawings you require. Also why not just get a block-plate/block-shield for a mod motor that should give you everything you should need to make the adaptor.

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#28

Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/19/2014 7:21 PM

Hi there,

Another way would be to try and borrow or hire a hand held 3D scanner then visit

wreckers, engine rebuilders, friends etc and scan away. It will tie in well with your

CAD package.

Kind regards, cryogen

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#29
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Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/19/2014 7:48 PM

Not a clue were I would borrow one of those from.

My thoughts are to buy a $30 12" digital calipers on eBay and just do a bit of measuring and writing down number then have my wife Autocad everything into workable blueprints.

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#30

Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/20/2014 4:24 PM

I stopped by the local Ford dealership and talked with the mechanics. turns out I know more about their stuff than they do.

Once I explained myself and what I wanted to do and they confirmed my facts about which engines shared common bell housing bolt patterns they happily gave me permission to come back in a day or two and do all the measuring I want on a number of their engine and transmissions that are coming in on their next shipment!

Personal opinions from them is they want to see me put the IH 345 V* in the 99 Ford F250 super duty!

General reasoning was that even though back in their day they were considered fuel pigs by today's standards those old IH behemoth grain trucks don't do half bad compared to the modern stuff like the 99 F250's that are 1/3 the size, 1/4 the peak weight and far more aerodynamic!

That and it would appear that on a torque VS RPM comparison the 345 IH is slightly better than the Ford 5.4 and 6.8 engines in the normal driving RPM ranges. They just don't have the modern 6500 RPM high end where the Ford engines make their extra 100+ peak HP.

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#31
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Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/20/2014 4:51 PM

The question now is can you put a 4 valve head on the 345 to gain more RPM ? How about a lighter custom Weisco piston with a better stroke angle with the factory steel crank with a little more stroke. We can always speculate on the help we can give the old hardware, it would not be any fun if we didn't would it? Duke

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#32
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Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/20/2014 5:49 PM

Hot rodding the old IH truck engines gets real expensive real fast.

As far as power goes I don't think I will need any more than it has now. At the moment the general consensus from the old school IH binder guys is the IH 345 can run flat out full throttle all day at 4200 - 4500 RPM which is plenty high enough for normal pickup use.

In a sense they liken the old IH truck engines to today's engines as being like comparing a plow horse to a race horse. The race horse will goes faster and have more peak muscle power but the old plow horse will pull a load all day that would kill a race horse in short order.

Given the gearing of my 99 F250 super duty 80 MPH in drive is ~3500 RPM which is well below the IH engines red line in stock form and that's all the faster I have ever needed to go with a pickup anyway.

What's interesting is the IH 345 engines of the year I have were rated at around 200 HP @4000 - 4200 RPM where as the 99 Ford V10 is rated for 260 HP @ around 5500 RPM.

Head to head in the normal 1800 - 3200 RPM driving range the IH has the better torque and HP numbers!

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#33
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Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/20/2014 7:33 PM

Yea! and with a Gear Vendors overdrive you could cut your fuel consumption quite a bit by making it a double overdrive, you can cruse 80 MPH at 2000 RPM. It would be interesting to see what propane would do for it, you never know it might just run for ever with very few oil changes.Duke. OHH! ALSO HOW ABOUT A TURBO?

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#34
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Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/20/2014 8:06 PM

AT 65 MPH in OD the stock engine is already pretty close to 2000 RPM. Unfortunately the IH 345's were not huge power makers at their lower RPM band. Good by most of today standards but not great.

Yea kinda planning a propane system for it. If the budget is good I might have the heads and intake milled to get it up to around 9.5:1 compression ratio.

Given it's stock ~7.5:1 compression ratio it could be turboed as is!

Mostly if I do this it's going to be a basic low budget conversion.

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#35
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Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/20/2014 10:09 PM

I give up third time I have tried and it can't process the post.Duke P.S. So now it decides to post.

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#36
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Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/20/2014 10:24 PM

A while back I had a E 250 Van with a 35W I put a pair of turbos on it from dodge 2.2 4 Cyl they worked great. Before turbos it got 13 MPG after 19 MPG. They fell flat at about 3800 on your 345 they should run up to about 4000-4200 RPM before going flat or surge. It made the van a great tow vehicle and a great stop light to stoplight truck with the 4.11's. All in all a great truck to drive and tow with.Duke.

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#37
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Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/21/2014 4:09 PM

Definitely pondered on that concept enough times as well! Especially with my old 1968 IH firetruck with it's massive 549 V8!

As I have read online dual turbos and a blow through carb setup on the stock 285 HP 549's can easily hit 450 HP below 3000 RPM.

Too bad the LV series engines are so massive they don't fit into any pickups without major frame and front end work.

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#38

Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/21/2014 4:27 PM

You might look at a 500 CI caddy motor, lots of torque and plenty of HP. Real cheep right from the junkyard and adaptors are very cheep for the 700R4. A very popular swap for land yachts in the GM family. But those IH motors are hard to beat for all out grunt and long life.Duke

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#39
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Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/21/2014 9:23 PM

Never had much interest in the big Cady engines. I always prefered the big industrial stuff.

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#41
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Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/22/2014 2:28 PM

If you get lucky, you might find one of these series engines with an electronic distributer in it. They were used from around 1971 till 2000 in the on road trucks. It is basically a Prestolite system, same as the early Ramblers used. I seem to recall that there were two distinct designs of pick ups. One looked like a Chrysler design, and one had photo optics, and was part of the vacuum advance. I would not try to chase one down, as the aftermarket conversions are easier to find replacement parts for, but, if you come across one grab it.

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#42
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Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/22/2014 3:51 PM

My thoughts were to remachine the top half of a Ford V8 distributor to adapt it to the IH distributors bottom shaft.

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#43
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Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/22/2014 4:24 PM

Why not just use a crank trigger and just use the distributer to drive the oil pump. It would give you more room on the firewall, and less strain on the distributer shaft. You can also make a vacuum pull off on the crank sensor mount to help with timing at times of low vacuum. Been so long since I used a distributer that I have forgotten advance or retard, high or low vacuum.Duke.

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#44
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Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/22/2014 4:45 PM

Sounds like more work than just refitting a more modern distributor onto the base of a stock one. As far a I know running the rotor is a pretty light load.

More than likely if the points eve went bad I would just spend the $120 and put a Pertronix solid state conversion in the stock distributor and be done with it. Presently the old stock IH 345 has been running like a watch on it's points system for about 10 years of seasonal work without ever missing a beat so I am not all that concerned about it.

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#45
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Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/22/2014 7:17 PM

Sorry I saw the post about machining a housing I thought had a problem with the old one. But it really isn't that big of a deal to make a crank trigger wheel with 4 neodymium magnets. Sorry I forgot you are not running aftermarket ignition sometimes my mind just runs off and leaves me in the dust. Are you going to use the stock carb on the 345 or have you thought about a standalone fuel injection system, they help the torque and mileage a lot from some of the guy here locally that have converted. Two of them are running the new Edelbrock system and one is using the atomic from MSD. Both of those systems helped the mileage and cold starts a lot. And after riding in two of them you can feel a considerable increase in the torque from a seat of the pants feel, the dyno would be the only way to find out for sure hopefully one of them will retest in the spring. Duke

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#46
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Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/22/2014 7:38 PM

YEa not doing a major performance rebuild. Just exercising my creative side to make a unique drivetrain.

have a spare Edelbrock 600 CFM 4BBL that I might refit to it. Redrilling and making the stock 2 BBL intake manifold into a 4BBl one would be easy enough to do.

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#47
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Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/23/2014 8:44 AM

We had a mid 70s 1200 and the 392 engine we had was equipped with a Thermo-Quad. (remember them) There should be 4 bbl manifolds in the bone yards if you look. By the mid 70, even the 345 were 4 bbl equipped.

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#48
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Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/23/2014 12:23 PM

Parts like that are rather easy to find but given the large flat area under the present 2 bbl its no big deal for me to rework the one I have.

Yea I know a bit about thermo quads. I know enough to toss them in my aluminum breakage scrap bin and put an easy to work with and tune Edelbrock in their place.

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#40

Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

01/22/2014 10:02 AM

They are bullet proof but real heavy and don't easily fit many engine bays other than what they were intended for. That is why some are using the 500 Caddy motor, huge torque and some speed parts seem to be coming available. The new LS & LX engine series are extremely lite and make lots of HP with the right parts but they seem to be getting harder to come by because of their attributes. That is why I like the Ford mod motors in the MK VIII, they are the same as the cobra motors and the pick-a-parts and pull-a-parts don't seem to recognise it as a potential HP engine We switch to the tumble port heads off of the Lincoln Continental with larger cam's and 1mm larger valves on the intake side we are making almost 1200 HP & 790 lb ft of torque. It will be interesting to see how fast it will go at Ohio, on the DHL international air strip for ECTA trials this year. The rule book is kicking my tail trying to make it safe but we should make it unless I run out of time or money before it happens.

Duke.

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#50

Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

05/07/2014 11:54 AM

Hay tcm how did the conversion/swap turn out on the F250. Haven't heard from you about it, and this post just reminded me of it. Just thinking you might of finished it by now. Duke

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#52

Re: Looking for engine bellhousing bolt pattern blueprints

02/09/2018 2:05 PM

All I am asking for is the bolt center to center on the rear of the 300-6 cyl eng which is sposta be the same as the 302. Where the bellh bolts up. I want to have an engine dolly ready when the guy delivers the 300-6 cyl. And the ford engine dolly does not look like it will work unless I cut the front supports off and put some 4x6 blocks under the oil pan as I did with the chev 230 on the sbc engine dolly. Which by the way no one seems to know motor mount bolt centers either.

v-8 and 6 cyl mounts are different. The inline 6 is much easier to overhaul, one head, one exhaust, and no timing belt/chain breaking. Plenty of pep. Survival is not throwing all yer $ away on gas. I am sorry I did not measure and document evrything back when it was plentiful. But I do now because it seems no one knows anything on the internet. No wonder we have to eat fwd automatics forced on us. Stand up for what you want and not what they force on you. You are giving your freedom and liberty up. And you can keep aluminum heads. Well, you go learn the hard way. Tired of explaining things. Iron melts near 3k and aluminum starts melting around 1216 degrees (?). Iron is cheaper to make and has been proven reliable. I give up up. Human race is doomed to marketing deception.

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