Previous in Forum: Changes NEC 690.12, Solar Photovoltaic Systems   Next in Forum: Watt Calculation Question
Close
Close
Close
21 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Commentator

Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 72

Broken in Some Rings in Post Insulator

04/06/2014 3:18 PM

Dear all

We have a lot of substation equipment in the substation where the broken porcelain in two rings or more Is there any formula to calculate min. creapage distance in order for me to judge whether I have to take it out of work or not.

thanks

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42355
Good Answers: 1693
#1

Re: broken in some rings in post insulator

04/06/2014 4:23 PM

There should be some instructions in the substation documentation. You should already know this. Find it and read it.......................

We can't see the documentation that you have.

Insulator (electricity) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
3
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Resting under the Major Oak
Posts: 4347
Good Answers: 181
#2

Re: broken in some rings in post insulator

04/06/2014 6:20 PM

Wait until a third ring breaks, if there's no explosion you know you are perfectly safe to run with two broken. The next step is wait for a fourth to fail……………..

__________________
The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated.
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 732
Good Answers: 17
#12
In reply to #2

Re: broken in some rings in post insulator

04/07/2014 5:18 PM

This sounds like how the dive tables were worked out.

__________________
common knowledge...less common than common sense
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Out of your mind! Not in sight!
Posts: 4424
Good Answers: 108
#3

Re: broken in some rings in post insulator

04/06/2014 8:04 PM

If it looks broken, it probably is!

That being said: take it out of work and fix it before it is too late!

__________________
Common Sense Dictates
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: NYC metropolitan area.
Posts: 3230
Good Answers: 444
#4

Re: Broken in Some Rings in Post Insulator

04/06/2014 8:14 PM

There's a reason why you "...have a lot...broken...", it's probably because they were under-designed to withstand the short circuit forces that they were subjected to. Replacing them without understanding why they broke is only inviting the new ones to fail as well.

You cannot calculate the creepage distance of broken insulators, that will only lead to outages at the worst possible times.

__________________
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” Ben Franklin.
Register to Reply
3
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Phnom Penh
Posts: 4019
Good Answers: 102
#5

Re: Broken in Some Rings in Post Insulator

04/06/2014 11:56 PM

You are over thinking this. If broken is visually detectable then they are broken. Just replace them.

If you need to substantiate the cost to someone who hasn't got a clue, eg a bean counter for a boss, then find some catastrophically failed insulator photos on the internet and email them to him/her with a subject line of "this can happen any moment..."

__________________
Difficulty is not an obstacle it is merely an attribute.
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: sometimes Wales,UK.. was Libya, now Oman!
Posts: 1715
Good Answers: 117
#6

Re: Broken in Some Rings in Post Insulator

04/07/2014 12:54 AM

Must agree with Wal... you are over thinking this WAY to much..

I got a word for you... Maintenance. Nothing more, nothing less!

Now for a Q&A!

Q. Does it look broke? A. not sure, lets look at it!

Q. Now you've look at it, is it broke? A. Yes!

Q. What the best plan to resolve this problem? A. Replace it and find out why its broke!

Q. when was the last time you looked at it? A. Not sure... DUH!!

Q. How old is it? A. Not sure!

please feel free to submit your own answer for mine...

__________________
The square root of nothing is what you make it!
Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Korba, Chattisgarh, India 495450
Posts: 64
Good Answers: 2
#7

Re: Broken in Some Rings in Post Insulator

04/07/2014 1:34 AM

Read some manuals and texts for high voltage transmission. Everything is clear there .. may be your SS manuals also have it. go thru .

__________________
Let us discuss the practical issues not the classroom.
Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Durban South Africa
Posts: 75
Good Answers: 2
#8

Re: Broken in Some Rings in Post Insulator

04/07/2014 2:21 AM

REPLACE THEM!!!!

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#9

Re: Broken in Some Rings in Post Insulator

04/07/2014 4:29 AM

I agree with all those here that said to replace them as broken rings can collect dust/moisture/who knows what and become a danger. A second rupture on the same ring may cause a short circuit as parts drop off for example....

Furthermore, you need to try and understand why they are breaking, is it poor manufacturing quality or poor installation of them when new, as we have no pictures or other help, it is not possible for us to be certain.

Contact the manufacturer and send him broken examples.....

Possibly if they are under too much compression when installed for example, changes in temperature may cause them to rupture....just a thought. Low temperatures can be just as damaging as high, with metal parts changing in size quite dramatically - smaller/shorter for example.

I am guessing that where you are it got cold this winter!!!

It would help us more to know your location on this world!!!!

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2004
Good Answers: 31
#10

Re: Broken in Some Rings in Post Insulator

04/07/2014 4:31 AM

Truth is, this is not scientific, rocket science or formula driven and forget cost, replace them as the next one will blow and take out more than you bargained for.

The break has changed the surface tensions and stress has increased in the porcelain, so forget your minimum creepage distances, it is irrelevant now. An exploding porcelain insulator is like a hand grenade, it will cause great damage. And someone may just be nearby to receive a lump of porcelain in the face or head. So what good is your cost saving and creepage formula when you have an injury to pay for.

Common sense and maybe safety should be the driving factor!!!

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: North West England
Posts: 1170
Good Answers: 153
#11

Re: Broken in Some Rings in Post Insulator

04/07/2014 4:59 AM

If the insulators are broken on the outside where you can see the break, then they have microfractures on the inside that you cannot see. Replace them as soon as possible. If the higher ups or bean counters complain, point out that you are in breach of the regulations and you are not insured.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 732
Good Answers: 17
#13

Re: Broken in Some Rings in Post Insulator

04/07/2014 5:26 PM

Just one source:

High voltage leads for ratings 2.4 kV and up are normally brought through the tank end wall using a porcelain bushing. To prevent excessive mechanical loading of the bushing, only flexible connections should be made to the bushing terminal. The bushing should never be used as a structural member to support other current-carrying parts.

Care must be taken in handling the bushing to avoid cracking the porcelain or damaging its surface. Should it become necessary to replace a bushing or its gasket, proceed as follows:

1. Vent the tank to the atmosphere until pressure is zero.

2. Lower the liquid level to a point below the bushing
level.

3. Remove the nuts and washers used to clamp the
flange of the bushing.

4. Pull the bushing outward as far as necessary to replace
the gasket and/or to unfasten the cable connection at
bushing inner end.

When reinstalling the bushing, install a new gasket in the gasket recess on the underside of the flange to insure that the gasket is properly seated in the groove. A flat washer
and lock washer should be placed between the mounting nut and the flange. After the nuts are finger tight, each one should be tightened to a torque of 60±5 inch pounds.

After completion, pressure test the transformer.

If you insist:

Testing and Maintenance of High-Voltage Bushings

__________________
common knowledge...less common than common sense
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Phnom Penh
Posts: 4019
Good Answers: 102
#14
In reply to #13

Re: Broken in Some Rings in Post Insulator

04/07/2014 6:56 PM

....and if these simple installation practices were followed then the insulator(s) wouldn't have cracked in the first place.

Using electrical connections for mechanical restraint of conductors rarely ends well.

__________________
Difficulty is not an obstacle it is merely an attribute.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2004
Good Answers: 31
#15
In reply to #13

Re: Broken in Some Rings in Post Insulator

04/08/2014 2:15 AM

Don't you think it is wise to refill the Tfx with oil and do an oil dielectric test and check for moisture and CFC and maybe test for acetylene gases?

If the Tfx is out of service for bushing replacement, please do the full job and not a half job. And check the oil dielectric before refilling the Tfx tank and conservator tank, (If it has one). And also, check the new oil dielectric before use.

If you replace Tfx bushings, it is not a quick unplanned job. And use neoprene impregnated cork gaskets, they are less likely to leak latter in life.

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: sometimes Wales,UK.. was Libya, now Oman!
Posts: 1715
Good Answers: 117
#16
In reply to #15

Re: Broken in Some Rings in Post Insulator

04/08/2014 2:17 AM

GA....

__________________
The square root of nothing is what you make it!
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2004
Good Answers: 31
#17
In reply to #16

Re: Broken in Some Rings in Post Insulator

04/08/2014 2:24 AM

GA...? Sorry, i have no clue what this may mean or transpire to mean. Can you elaborate and then I can LMAO.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 732
Good Answers: 17
#19
In reply to #17

Re: Broken in Some Rings in Post Insulator

04/08/2014 3:30 PM

Good Answer

__________________
common knowledge...less common than common sense
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2004
Good Answers: 31
#21
In reply to #19

Re: Broken in Some Rings in Post Insulator

04/09/2014 3:35 AM

Thanks for that, to both of you. Rgds

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 732
Good Answers: 17
#18
In reply to #15

Re: Broken in Some Rings in Post Insulator

04/08/2014 3:28 PM

I don't have a local set of instructions for this service. We have a depot to do the work.

I basically pulled the first valid reference I found...just to give the guy and idea that his equipment needs rework. He shouldn't be trying to figure out if they can still be used while broken in two places.

Your points are well-founded and sage advice.

__________________
common knowledge...less common than common sense
Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Korba, Chattisgarh, India 495450
Posts: 64
Good Answers: 2
#20

Re: Broken in Some Rings in Post Insulator

04/09/2014 12:57 AM

Dear Asser,

Don't waste time on calculating creepage distances as economics wont be in favour. It may spoil your transformer if you are concerning that or may cause a serious accident causing damages much more than the required investment. You may learn of calculating creepages on a later date. Lets not hope you come accross a situatiopn of paying compenmsatiuon. For bushings contact transformer manufactures or any high voltage equpment vendor.

Dont delay.

__________________
Let us discuss the practical issues not the classroom.
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 21 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Andy Germany (1); beentheredonethat (1); brich (2); IdeaSmith (1); IQ (4); jhhassociates (1); lyn (1); M.R.Iyengar (2); RAMConsult (1); The.Tinkerer (4); TonyS (1); Wal (2)

Previous in Forum: Changes NEC 690.12, Solar Photovoltaic Systems   Next in Forum: Watt Calculation Question

Advertisement