New Lead in Missing Airliner

A plausible lead for this lost plane. However, as the news report implies, this satellite based search technique has not been used before to find a lost plane. So do not be surprised if this also turns out to be something other than this lost plane.

"The team then verified its findings by analyzing images from the same area on March 5, three days before the plane disappeared."

I think that says it all.....

"... this satellite based search technique has not been used before to find a lost plane."...


Well according to their website, it has been used to find aircraft...

"We have successfully applied our technology to locate submersed structures, ships and aircraft. The technology has also been used to successfully identify WWII munitions that later led to the recovery of explosives left buried under layers of silt in the coastal Black Sea."

http://georesonance.com/

The underlying assumption is that the wings stayed on and the fuselage stayed intact on a journey from airborne to the bottom of the sea.

Maybe it was an attempted landing....at last contact they were at 1000ft

Not necessarily true. The resolution of the television images is not fine enough for me to be certain but I think one box is 25m. The wingspan of a 700-300 is about 61m. The length is about 74m. I have no idea what distortion sea water could have on this image.

So it is anyone's guess now if this is part of a broken up plane, a reduced in size image of a very large debris field smeared by optics and pixelation or a tectonic effect that happened within the same time as this plane disappearing.

I believe those are 75m sections....At least this is some hard data, and from a company that uses very sophisticated means for finding submarines and nuclear warheads....

http://georesonance.com/

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/malaysia-airlines-flight-370-georesonance-wreckage-of-a-commercial-airliner-found/

Maybe it's nothing, but does it strike anyone odd how *precisely* this object's axis appears to aligned N-S?

You beat me to it. That is VERY odd.

Now boys.

I think the odds are about 720:1 that the plane was oriented in any particular direction for any particular reason.

The next time you're sitting in the tub, have the wife bring you one of your model planes and do some dive tests.

Now, if that were me flying it? It would land that way IF AND ONLY IF I tried to land it any *other* direction.

Same with screws, nuts, lids, anything with threads or a preferred direction, I'll get it drawkcab. Got it tattoo'd on my hand: The Other Way, Dumbs**t!

Wrong hand.

Btw, did I tell you about that dyslexic agnostic insomniac?

Stayed up all night wondering if there really IS a dog.

What are the odds in radians. Ha!

Correct! Any idea how many currents are present in any one day, in any one of the larger bodies of water. That thing could be spun around like top in just a couple of dozen fathoms, much less the depth they are looking at.

My theory is still that the tiny bits of PA, PE, UHPE and PP will be caught up in the outer bands of either the Indian Ocean or Pacific Gyre . That means, look all along the Indian ocean coast all the way to Africa and/or start looking for bits on the eastern side of Aussi land. Those gyres are huge and slow moving but they pull incredible amounts of water.

Just my thoughts....you all know how slow I am !

I agree that some floating debris is likely in several Indian Ocean gyres by now. Unfortunately finding that debris will not tell us much about the location of the plane because floating debris from everywhere in the ocen collect in these gyres.

Red,

I agree. I was thinking they could have maybe sampled for it just ahead of the gyre itself before it got caught up in that mess....and a plastics mess it is! Could have given some small indication of the direction...right now all the sophisticated stuff hasn't located squat.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2614932/U-S-pilot-believes-hes-wreckage-missing-Malaysia-flight-searching-satellite-images.html

No hard data, Mooseman....

Just soft data, like software? You never know what it means or how it works or even if it does. Why do you think they're called Microsoft? They tried Small 'n' Limp but it was too close to the Truth.

Yeah I know, but it's a long shot. No one else has come up with much to grasp onto, except some pings? Hmmmmmm....

So far, the entire disappearance has no "solid data". Just saying......

Here's another 'find'.

You're still asleep over there, while we're already awake and grasping at straws here.

#9

Heck, I don't read Cap'n Moosie !<scurries away with feeble excuse>

Any of you guys with a decent Internet connection know what the water depth is at that location, ie, near E90°00' and N20°00+? I'd consult online nautical charts but they take too long to xfer via Morse Code.

Anyone?

Need the exact location....

https://www.ida.liu.se/~746A27/Literature/Bathymetric%20mapping%20using%20satellite%20image.pdf

Sorry. That's the best I could do given the map in that newspiece (the link you posted). From that map, the wreckage site appears to be on the continental shelf right near the deepwater edge.

In the map above, I presume the depths are shown in meters (given that the Somali Basin, lower left, is a tad too dark for 5115 *feet*), and so the depth of the Bengal Shelf is around 2400 meters, more or less - already deeper than the range of GeoResonance' NMR sensors - UNLESS they did a bit of submersible work.

NMR is great at IDing elements, molecules, etc., but you've got to BE THERE to detect the radio-frequency relaxation signal. This is especially true in seawater, which is utterly opaque to all but the lowest radio frequencies. Even the U.S. & Russia's ELF sub-comm frequencies of 76 Hz and 82 Hz don't penetrate well to 2400 meters and you can forget VLF and above.

They can't do UV, optical and IR remote sensing because there is too much water in the way, can't hear the NMR signals from the surface because seawater is totally opaque from almost DC and up, and many materials have microwave NMR relaxation frequencies that wouldn't have a snowball's chance in Hell of making it to the surface.

Methinks The Dudes from Down Under Done Went Down Under, all the way to the bottom or close enough for their NMR to be in-range (much more likely). Possibly they have a towed instrument of some sort. If they went all the way down they could have photographed the 'anomaly' the Old Fashioned Way.

Woods Hole? Do you know where your Alvins are?

I hear ya, this technology or group of technologies used, do seem to be rather sketchy...Still it's easy enough to check the location, they are rather specific...

found this:

20 07 25.2, 89 59 59.15
20.123666, 89.99976388

Appears to be in about 2200ft of water....on a slope....oddly aligned with the poles...

Hello, SE,

You recall from your HS trig classes that weird shit that invariably happens at 90-180-degree intervals, yes. That 'anomaly' looks to be straddling two quadrants. And that perfect slope?

Pn*b*n's secret ufo base? Anomaly? Artifact? Quadrant-boundary beast? (GASP)

The alpha (non-flight) release of the F-15's nav software flunked one of our simulator tests. Flunked so magnificently that, had we tested on a real plane, we'd prolly have to later explain to the pilot's widow that it was a software bug.

Seems that when we 'flew' the software over our simulated-Earth's equator, the simulated plane wanted to flip upside-down! If it was previously ascending nearly straight up when crossing the equator it would dive with the same determination.

Somebody had neglected to insert a minus sign somewhere in the sourcecode. So easy to do it's pathetic and probably why I never once aced a trig test in high school. We found the perp and keelhauled him as befit the magnitude (and sign) of his crime.

I'm just wondering if some of what we're seeing is an artifact, perhaps? A school of red herring....?

Call me a conspiracist, but this looks a wee bit too nice and neat. Too 'ideal'. Everything nice and symmetric, perfectly aligned, INTACT, at least no serious asymmetries to suggest otherwise, maybe sitting nice and level on the ocean floor as we would hope to expect, or on that impossibly perfect slope and not having augered-in any old way as would be more typical of a jet airliner falling through 2000 feet of water. All that's missing is a bow - and the plane to tie it on.

For my part I find this discovery a wee bit TOO tidy for comfort. I don't trust it. Sketchy techniques they only hint at using technologies that do what they say, but under vastly different circumstances. Company claims of detecting stuff and way too easily. I've used NMR devices. JEOL products. Great machines, ultra sensitive, but good bluddy luck asking it it to detect anything even a meter away, much less its composition. On the ocean floor two thousand feet away? Uh huh. Next stupid question.

A red herring to divert our attention to elsewhere or from elsewhere?

Maybe. I hope not.

What's the point?

A diversion for what reason?

Marketing ploy? No plane, no gain.

After 3 weeks if there were anyone responsible, and still alive they would have announced their intentions by now.

I think they're all dead, at the bottom of the ocean. Sad, sad sad.

I don't know if GeoResonance has SAS (Synthetic-Aperture Sonar) but somebody does and could make hi-rez, nearly photo-quality sonogaphs of the ocean floor at that site without going that deep. SAS excels at this sort of thing.

I wrote GeoRez early today and no reply as of yet. Reckon they're pretty swamped right now.

This could make or break the company....I'm thinking there could be some sort of high energy wave spectroscopy that I have yet to hear about as a possibility...Is that possible....Short waves I think can penetrate the ocean to 5000'...that why everything turns blue as you get deeper.....or is that because of the cold....

This would now be the old way?

"All of the major petroleum exploration companies use satellite altimeter gravity data from Geosat and ERS-1 to locate offshore sedimentary basins in remote areas. This information is combined with other reconnaissance survey information to determine where to collect or purchase multi-channel seismic survey data. Currently, the regions of most intense exploration interest are the continental shelves of Australia and the former Soviet Union."

http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/bathymetry/predicted/explore.HTML

That 'bathymetric' paper you posted (quite excellent, btw) discusses the efficacy of various visible and near-visible wavelengths in penetrating seawater. Blue (400s nm) has the best penetration, but the scale is around 35-40 times *less* than the estimated depth of GeoRez' anomaly, and this under fairly ideal conditions of turbidity and so forth. ~60-70 feet? No problemo. 2000 feet? Hasta luego.

I have to agree....confidence is low...

I looked for zee plane on Google Earth but couldn't find it.

When I GE'd my home in Texas, the place hadn't yet been built, according to the pic (twas built in 2004).

"They" may have 'placed' the plane there after they removed what they needed while the world was watching south ..."Look over there!"...plonk!

I revert to the other string ... what was in the hold of MH370?
No manifest? No known noise from the insurance companies?

Malaysia Airline on the brink to be bankrupt!

If the plane was put there on purpose nobody will ever admit it!

But, it is still in the path it would have taked after the crew went out after changing course for an emergency landing. It went lower and slower and ditched at low speed almost like a landing. All still intact. I just wonder how it make the flight to Maledives and back!

We'll see!

And some update.....

There's a slightly iffy use of the word 'co-ordinate' in that report.

re #30 - next stupid question -- I'll bite.

Did this sentence in the link raise any eyebrows: "Scientists focused their efforts north of the flight's last known location, using over 20 technologies to analyse the data including a nuclear reactor." Emphasis mine.

Ahh.... using a reactor to analyze data - that's a new one on me.

Comments?

I reckon that's what happens when technical details are 'analysed' and reported by journalistic non-specialists. In this sense it's no coincidence that 'analyse' begins with 'anal' and from there, goes downhill.

Well I have to think that if this company did have the ability to locate any mineral, that they would be looking for gold and platinum like full time....then snapping up the mineral rights, and in a short time be rather famous, not to mention rich....It doesn't make sense that they would waste their time with anything else....Like looking for water....

Gold ya say?

KA CHINNNNGGGG!!!

GA

Everything on their website is vague. What really got me was their claim that, "If it's present, we'll detect it. If it's not, we won't."

"I hid one femtogram of platinum in that thar mountain, mates. True or false?"

Well another thing occurred to me, that this "anomaly" is the only thing they found? In the areas they searched there would have to be thousands of objects, shipwrecks, shipping containers, various dumped debris, natural mineral deposits, but this is the only thing mentioned? It makes no sense....

The way those Bengalis drive? That site should be littered with cars, motorcycles, you name it. (Me? I think they like the adrenaline rush. :)

Seriously, though, look at those images again, where they map the area by material. Especially the one showing the copper detected.

If that's copper wiring inside an aluminum aircraft fuselage, how in the hell do they detect it? NMR is out, because NMR relies upon Larmor precession to ID the material by means of the characteristic radio frequencies produced. (the R in NMR and in GeoResonance' name). These frequencies are a function both of the material and the ambient magnetic field. Now, to a radiowave, what is an aluminum fuselage, really?

A Farady cage.

Yup, they could plop right down on top of that fuselage (if that's what it is) and still not divine what's inside by means of NMR. Even if it weren't a Faraday cage, the fact of its being 2200 feet underwater, and seawater at that, means they're not going to detect Jacques Schitt.

Oh but wait. They must be using EFNMR, which depends on the Earth to supply the requisite magnetic field and, given the field in that area is around 44000 nT, the Larmor frequency is going to be very low, around 2 kHz. That's ULF and everybody knows the Navy uses ULF to talk to subs, right? Not at 2200 feet they don't. Maybe 200 feet. Maybe. Seawater is a brick wall to radio waves. For something at that depth? Something like 5 Hz would make more sense.

If NMR is out then what other techniques might they be using to detect copper, specifically, and inside an aluminum fuselage? Something unique to copper only and obviously so enough to ID it through a metal barrier?

And lastly (for the next five minutes anyway), if GeoRez are sure that what they're seeing down there is an airplane, what a huge feather in their cap were they to prove it, Titanic-style. Huge win. If GeoRez know where that anomaly is with such precision, why no conclusive proof of its identity? These days 2200 feet is nothing for a camera-equipped ROV. No one can spare theirs for hire and a good cause? No one? To check out a site a *helluva* lot closer to Malaysia than Perth, Australia because Tony Abbot vicariously heard a few beeps and declared "We're confident we're within a few kilometers."

Oz ex-PM Paul Keating would be having a field day with that one! (Google 'Paul Keating quotes' for a good laugh. Keating would absolutely incinerate Abbot for making such a baseless claim).

theres more of a chance this will be verified

I've seen other reports about GeoVibration that they say something about a Ukrainian connection- not sure if it is a company division or another company. So maybe they're using some exotic Eastern European remote sensing technology like a sharp stick or a Chernobyl-o-vision.

Seems like an awful risky move for a supposedly serious company to claim something like this, even if sophisticated remote sensing is their business. Its an all or nothing gamble: If Australia finds the wreck tomorrow they look like shzt. If they have identified the correct spot (which could take some time before someone with the right equipment actually goes and looks) they are heroes. No middle ground.

And the comments from the tall foreheads on this forum suggest that seawater is pretty much opaque to most frequencies. Even the US military had to resort to mapping the ocean floor (for sub navigation) indirectly. They did it by setting up a satellite to measure the sea level to the nearest inch and inferring what gravity did to the water level over undersea peaks and valleys. I don't have the link close at hand but it is a fascinating read. But if unlimited money couldn't map the ocean floor directly then sensing some metal on the ocean floor is even more of a stretch.

So without any explanation about the details of the process used to show how they identified rotting mangosteen juice 2000 meters down I'll pass.

So I'm with the guy who thinks the tooth fairy will be proved to be real before these dudes are proven right.

Jon.

Yes I was thinking the same thing....they would have to know there was a plane wreck there, it doesn't necessarily have to be the one we're looking for, as they point out every time they mention the find....So at some previous time they located an airplane, possibly WWII era, at that location, and when it's found they can claim the're technology works, and reap the rewards, at least until they produce no results, but of course they would have made their fortune by then...following the e-cat strategy...

If it's Russian..er..Ukrainian technology GeoThrob are using, you can be sure it contains the world's BIGGEST microchips. ;-)

They claim to be using radiation chemistry....pulse or flash radiolysis...doesn't make any sense to me....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_chemistry

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse_radiolysis

Hi sawmilleng,

Please find that paper you read, if you would, on ocean-floor mapping? I'd love to read it. How recently was it published? Do you recall?

They've some pretty sophisticated techniques these days for mapping the oceans at hi-rez (and other techniques to find big chunks of metal, but ferrous, mostly). Synthetic-aperture sonars map in 3D at such a high resolution that you'd think you were looking at a black & white photo of the sea floor. Cool stuff!

and taking 'pictures' of it with hi-rez, 3D sonar. Very clear, very high-resolution images.

We did of parts of the Gulf of Mexico. Not only the seabed, but to some depth below. It can be done.

Do you recall resolution of those gravimetric surveys? Sounds to me like they were more interested in mapping a lot of ocean floor quickly and at low resolution. A general picture. Gravimetric surveys are best at painting the big picture.

Oh, that one. I thought you were speaking of something you read elsewhere. Yes, that 'bathymetric' paper is excellent.

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What were we talking about?

:-)

To survey that patch of the GoM we had three, 6 km long kerosene*-and-electronics-filled 5"-dia tygon streamers containing hydrophones spaced at one-meter intervals. (18000 hydrophones, total). At longer intervals and at the ends were DGPS receivers.

Shipboard we had just about every kind of electronic navaid known to Man, each with its own idea of where we were (which changed depending on where we were), and we ran it all through Kalman filters, hand-waving and lots of expensive black magic which let us pinpoint each hydrophone's location on the Earth's surface in 3D to within five cm. We generated a terabyte of data per day (this was in '94). From the data we constructed 3D maps of the GoM's floor as well as the structure of the strata beneath, to a considerable depth.

My cabin was amidships below the waterline and when in my bunk I could hear the initial reflection from the sea bottom followed by fainter echoes from the strata beneath.

-----

* for neutral buoyancy.

I found it.........its right next to this guy

They found Jimmy Hoffa, btw. He was hiding behind Tammy Faye Bakker's makeup.

Has anyone consulted Madam Olga?

DOH!!

Hehehe it's in the last place you're going to look!! heheheheehehhee

The technology intrigues me.

I wonder how high of a frequency can be transmitted through ocean water using acoustic (compression) energy instead of electromagnetic.

If it would be possible to generate acoustic energy at frequencies that approach ( or some lower harmonic frequency) of the natural molecular resonant frequency of the target materials perhaps one could look for some type of excitation signal from the target material.

Could there be any reason why someone might want this airplane to remain lost?

How were the two folks traveling on the stolen passports so rapidly eliminated as persons of interest?