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Anonymous Poster #1

Non-Conductive Material

05/21/2014 2:07 PM

Hi Folks

I am looking for a sheet of non-electricity conductive material ( as wood) , and solid hard ( as steel).

I appreciate your suggestions.

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#1

Re: Non- conductive Material

05/21/2014 2:11 PM

Glass.

Ceramic.

Some plastics.

That's hardly anything to go on.

Why not try a search.

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Anonymous Poster #1
#3
In reply to #1

Re: Non- conductive Material

05/21/2014 2:21 PM

Thanks, Actually this sheet is needed for electronics/electricity workbench with hot ( burning) power resistors on it - and should be hard enough and unbreakable.

Supplier address needed.

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Non- conductive Material

05/21/2014 2:38 PM

Lets review the requirements again. It is important that the terms you are using are describing what you actually need.

Heat resistant; what temperatures does the material need to withstand...on the surface for limited times? continuously?

Hard; how hard, at what temperature and why? Are you more concerned about scratches or about indentations?

Tough; what are the most demanding conditions the material would need to endure? repeatedly? at what temperature?

Non-conductive; what is the maximum potential this material would need to endure in service? what minimum resistivity is required in the most demanding service?

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#5
In reply to #3

Re: Non- conductive Material

05/21/2014 2:46 PM

So, DO A SEARCH FOR HARD NONCONDUCTIVE WORKBENCH TOPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How to Search the Internet - Hannon Library

Search GlobalSpec

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#9
In reply to #3

Re: Non- conductive Material

05/21/2014 3:18 PM

OK. Try toughened glass, then.

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#15
In reply to #3

Re: Non- conductive Material

05/21/2014 3:58 PM

If it's an electronic workbench, then you almost certainly want it to be slightly conductive, i.e. anti static: between about 10MΩ and 1000MΩ per square.

Make sure your customer is happy with that part of the spec., whatever you choose.

Most people just lay one of those anti static rubber mats on top of a wooden bench, but, it sounds as though heat is going to be a problem with that.

What about an anti static epoxy flooring resin. You'd need to get a spec. for the conductivity.

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: Non- conductive Material

05/21/2014 4:08 PM

The bench is for burning power resistors. I wouldn't think conductivity would mater. ;>)

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#33
In reply to #16

Re: Non- conductive Material

05/22/2014 5:30 AM

He says it's for an electronics workbench with hot resistors on it; he doesn't say that's the only thing that will be on it. If it was a resistor test or burn in fixture only then I don't think the resistors would be lying on the surface.

More input from the OP would help.... Ha!... there goes another squadron of pigs.

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#19
In reply to #3

Re: Non- conductive Material

05/21/2014 4:48 PM

How about some sheet sapphire on top of your work bench. With 10^14 ohms/cm resistivity and a dielectric strength of 4.8 *10^5 any wire in contact with this surface will not arc through the sheet or leak around the resistor. Also with a melting temperature of 2040°C your resistors can get as hot as you want.

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#26
In reply to #3

Re: Non- conductive Material

05/21/2014 5:43 PM

I take pity on poor unknowing, unaware, hapless/helpless APs who are also just hopeless, but not very often.

DO NOT lick the resistors while testing them.

Shop for electrical work bench tops on Google

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#27
In reply to #3

Re: Non- conductive Material

05/21/2014 7:53 PM

Supplier address needed.

Auckland supplier address ok?

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#2

Re: Non- conductive Material

05/21/2014 2:15 PM
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#37
In reply to #2

Re: Non- conductive Material

05/22/2014 9:59 AM

That material always reminds me of the MythBusters ep where they were testing "What is bulletproof?" and the Lexan sheet was being brought up. If memory serves the scene went like this:

Adam: And now for the Lexan, which Jamie claims is bulletproof.

Jamie: I never said that.

[ Cut to clip from Season 1. Jamie: "It'll stop a bullet." ]

Jamie: I never said it was bulletproof.

[ Previous clip is replayed ]

Jamie: What I MEANT was that, in layers, with the proper films bonded in between, it will resist most firearms.

Now if my mind is not betraying me (which it likes to do sometimes) the full scene that the sound bite came from was as follows:

Jamie: This stuff is tough. It'll stop a bullet. We'll be safe from shrapnel behind it.

So they cut it down to the best version of a sound bite to take the 'always perfect, always accurate, never wrong' Jamie down a peg, but they didn't twist the meaning or but words in his mouth. When he was bringing the Lexan(1) in to the shop as safety shields.

Notes:

1) In later seasons simply referred to as polycarbonate, either they switched suppliers or DuPont or whoever makes the Lexan brand asked to not be name-dropped so the idiots who try the "Don't Try This At Home" stunts won't go around shooting their buddies through 1/4" sheets of Lexan brand polycarbonate and giving the company a bad reputation.

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#6

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/21/2014 2:55 PM

ceramic

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#7

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/21/2014 2:57 PM

did I just answer a question for an anon??? what the hell was I thinking???

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#38
In reply to #7

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/22/2014 10:04 AM

Everyone makes mistakes, you're probably just overtired.

If you're at work, have another cup of coffee, it'll help you perk up.

If you're at home, have a cup of 'something harder' (everyone's got their own preference for the hard drinks, I'm not going to presume I know what type any particular person uses to relax with) and a nap, you'll feel better after that.

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#8

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/21/2014 3:00 PM

Lookup 'granite countertop' on Google for a dealer near you.

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#12
In reply to #8

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/21/2014 3:22 PM

Yes. Granite or another type of stone, natural or synthetic would do what you want. Soapstone is very heat resistant but not as hard as granite. Do you intend to pound on it with a hammer?

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#10

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/21/2014 3:19 PM

Asbestos.

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#13
In reply to #10

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/21/2014 3:26 PM

Gesundheit!

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/21/2014 3:48 PM

Thank you!

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#40
In reply to #10

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/22/2014 10:12 AM

You nearly made me spit coffee onto my screen with this one!

Yes it meets all the technical requirements, but nobody wants to be NEAR the stuff. It's treated like it's worse than nuclear waste, which I guess it is, nuclear waste breaks down and turns into lead in a few thousand/million/whatever years, depending on the source material, but asbestos is stable. When the core of the Demon Sphere has decayed into a harmless paperweight, asbestos will still be asbestos.

When I read your post, it felt like you had the same tone of voice as if you said "go play in traffic."

At the risk of sounding like one of those el-three-three-seven idiots, I believe that post of yours wins an 'interweb' for succinct snarkiness.

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#42
In reply to #40

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/22/2014 2:38 PM

I have always tried to use the fewest words possible to convey a though.

Snarkiness is in my blood.

Some of the questions we get here just bring out the beast!

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#11

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/21/2014 3:21 PM

How about slate? Marble? Concrete?

<...am looking for...> Try looking a bit further as these materials are widely available.

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#17

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/21/2014 4:24 PM

Formica.

Alternatively, use a standard bench and just build stands for the resistors. This will also help with air flow around the resistors and prevent them rolling of the bench and into your lap or starting a fire.

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#22
In reply to #17

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/21/2014 5:17 PM

Didn't that stuff used to be called 'taiwan'?

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#18

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/21/2014 4:36 PM

There is no such thing as non-conductive material. There are highly resistive materials that have low conductivity but even these materials can be turned into a conductive plasma with enough voltage applied.

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#20
In reply to #18

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/21/2014 4:49 PM

how many volts to get these guys to give up electrons?

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#24
In reply to #20

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/21/2014 5:35 PM

More than the air arc path. They sample test the arc through voltage to verify.

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#23
In reply to #18

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/21/2014 5:20 PM

Dunno 'bout that. I've always lined my Tokomaks with birch (rock maple works too).

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#25
In reply to #23

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/21/2014 5:40 PM

I seriously hope it was treated. What am I saying, of course it was - Aesthetics be damned!

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#21

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/21/2014 5:10 PM

Does this have to be a whole workbench top or just pads under the resistors? If they could be smaller pads you could use laser cut alumina ceramic or MGC if it needs to be non conductive thermally as well.

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#28

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/21/2014 11:52 PM

Google G10. We work with material 10mm thick. Solid, non-conductive, high temp rating. Can be cut to any size. Even Ebay sells this stuff.

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#29
In reply to #28

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/21/2014 11:59 PM

G10 is not fiberglass.

It is an epoxy resin material reinforced with fiberglass fabric.

Used to manufacture printed circuit boards in the past. Not so much any more.

FR4 superseded G10 in many applications, but that's a board of a different color.

Glass Epoxy Laminate, Grade NEMA G-10 - The Gund ...

We could talk YN-25 if you'd like.

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#30
In reply to #29

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/22/2014 12:03 AM

I posted this.

Don't know how it came as an AP. I wish I could have a redo.

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#31
In reply to #30

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/22/2014 1:37 AM

Naughty boy! go in your corner!

I am going to tell Kris!

Where is Doorman when you need him?

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#34
In reply to #29

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/22/2014 8:05 AM

WE did work with some 18-25mm Phenolic impregnated plywood material I think it was called Vamelglass, used for flooring and walls in military applications you might try that. It was very hard to cut needed Diamond cutters

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#32

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/22/2014 3:14 AM

Bakelite!

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#35

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/22/2014 8:15 AM

Suggest use hard anodised aluminum sheet.

Electrical proiperties:

"The breakdown voltages of Hard anodic coatings are highly insulating. The best results are obtained from a homogenous alloy composition , impurities in the film will lower the insulating properties. The advantage which anodised coating possess over most other media for electrical insulation is that they can operate up to temperatures of 500oC. The combination of high dielectric strength and good thermal conductivity makes hard anodised aluminium superior to most other materials as an insulating medium."

The wear characteristics of hard anodised aluminium are most favourable at low loads and compare most favourably with hard chromium and high speed steel, in most cases better. The Microhardness of the coating varies significantly depending on the alloy chosen. (Also castings of the same chemical makeup of wrought alloy's and different casting methods).

Hardness and wear resistance:

"Generally the high strength alloys i.e. 2000 and 7000 alloys produce a Microhardness figure ranging from 250 to 350 micro Vickers where as the 6000 alloy range in between 400-500 micro Vickers. A note of caution should be made when comparing micro hardness to wear resistance, the hardness measured by micron-indentation method does not represent the performance of the material. It has been found that a hard anodised coating measuring 450 mv will have a wear resistance of tool steel of 950 mv and even an anodic coating of high copper alloy such as 2014 measuring 250-280 mv will often offer as much wear resistant as tool steels"

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#36
In reply to #35

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/22/2014 9:13 AM

I'm apprehensive to recommend any coated metal for an electronics work bench surface. While the coating can be sufficiently tough to prevent voltages to short circuit to the metal of the bench there will always be a conductive plane in close proximity to the circuit under test. Depending on the frequency of the of the signals this conductive plane can dramatically change the actual circuit under test from the expected circuit under test.

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#39
In reply to #36

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/22/2014 10:10 AM

Thanks for the excellent clarity!

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#43
In reply to #35

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/23/2014 12:27 AM

The assertions in that last paragraph are surprising. I note you put it in quotes, so perhaps you won't mind linking to the source of those claims?

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#44
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Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/23/2014 7:16 AM

http://www.ase4anodising.co.uk/hard-anodising.asp

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#45
In reply to #44

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/24/2014 3:56 AM

Thank you.

I sure wish they had provided some sort of reference for that claim. It is a broad and significant claim. While I imagine there are specific instances in which it might hold true, I doubt it is typically the case. I'm open to being wrong.

If anyone has any links to data demonstrating the claims above, i.e., wear resistance of anodized aluminum matching that of steel with significantly higher micro-hardness, I'd appreciate being pointed in the right direction.

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#46
In reply to #45

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/24/2014 8:22 AM

My experience with hard anodizing was with substituting mild steel with aluminum hard anodized templates for manual routing. Not an ideal one though, as the edges had tendency to chip off, therefore not pursued further.

But I have seen an highly loaded transmission center piece of an helicopter component with hard anodized surface for very high hardness and lubricity.

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#47
In reply to #46

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/24/2014 8:26 AM

Substituting hard anodized aluminum for mild steel in certain wear applications doesn't seem that unreasonable. Tool steel on the other hand....

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#48
In reply to #47

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/24/2014 10:08 AM

I agree with you.

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#41

Re: Non-Conductive Material

05/22/2014 12:34 PM

Durostone, used for wave solder fixturing

http://www.professionalplastics.com/DUROSTONE

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#49

Re: Non-Conductive Material

08/19/2014 11:57 AM

Try G-7 glass-silicone. If that doesn't work, probably nothing will.

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