Neat Way To Preserve Food, Or Gimmick?

The recycling aspect is a definite issue.

I think it would be more expensive to use the plastic/metal combo, than just metal.

If they use existing labels, the clearness will be covered up. Will food/soup companies be willing to change out labels to show off the insides? Doubt it. Canned soup ain't that pretty anyway, and sunlight exposure could change the color of certain foods.

"...and sunlight exposure could change the color of certain foods."

Boy, that's valid point there.

I do a fair amount of home canning in glass jars (Mason type jars) and have never had such an issue, but I keep my canned goods in a cupboard with doors.

Labels are easy to rework, I don't see an issue there at all.

More expensive? Dunno. I've invited a representative of the can manufacturer to this discussion, perhaps he can shed a little bit of light on that.

....and sunlight can degrade vitamin content/taste.

On the plus side, Lidl stock a lot of goods with labelling in all sorts of languiages. Being able to see the contents might enable me to ID what was inside.

Canned peas would ordinarily turn grey. M&S trialed selling them without the additives to prevent discolouration. The market for grey peas was very short lived, even though it was not detrimental to product quality.

Containers that can be re-used might be a better way to go. ie - some sort of container that you take responsibilty for cleaning yourself, and you can then refill at the supermarket.

If you eat canned peas, you are either dumber or poorer than I thought, or have a wife that I wouldn't want. Frozen peas are much better tasting and much more nutritious.

Is this 'annoy Kris' week ? I made no mention of eating canned peas myself, or questioned if frozen peas were better.

Possibly you can escape by claiming 'you' was intended in a general sense, but that doesn't fully get you off the hook. Plain fact is that shops sell a lot of canned peas. To go off the loop, as you've just done, is something that even my new chum Dex would find hard to do. Have you considered that freezers are not available in many parts of the world ?

As it happens, I do eat canned peas once in a while. Does this make me trailer trash ? I hope your boyfriend gives you a right good slap. I'm only mildly irked, you are welcome to visit for a pot-noodle any day.

The difference with standards and DEX is that DEX insulted you with his very first post. He then, with his second post, insulted our collective intelligence.

Posts 3-7 insulted other members who had been members for far more than just one day.

It's just no fun to joist verbally with the unarmed.

Glad to see things haven't changed.

I like canned peas on instant mashed potatoes, with instant gravy poured over the top.

Goes nicely with a pre-cooked chicken and some Stovetop stuffing.

Same site. Only we have a new twerpetrator.

My wife cooks this disgusting chopped, pressed turkey loaf with instant mashed potatoes and gravy. Usually warms canned corn with it.

One of the neighbor kids ate with us the other night. He weighs 70# but ate the entire loaf after we each had a piece. We all just looked at each other..................

His father is a chef. Go figure.

We seriously need to have some thread on foods. Ok, maybe we've had it before, but it never stops to amaze me. 'Biscuits and gravy'. Good grief, this confabulates the Brit mind. It comes over as Rich Tea Biscuits with some Bisto poured on top. I'm guessing that some of our cuisine does the same. I like a good slice of Aberdeen Angus. Tried Dexter once, but it was a load of bull.

quite popular in the US Southwest.........like Vegas, PHX.

I don't know of any place over here that has it on the menu. As much as it leaves me grossed out, I would just have to try.Does one have to drink Doc Pepper with it

Well, as long as we've run amok, my wife took her mother to Wales in 1991. Mum was born there.

She called me from London, ready to come back home and reported the same from Wales.

She didn't like the food.

It's all what we're used to.

They did have a good time visiting with the Welsh relatives.

And they saw sheep with red X's painted in them. Thanks to Chernobyl.

BTW, that's biscuits and sausage gravy above. Quite good for breakfast with some eggs and bacon on top. Coffee, no Doc Pep.

Your wife must have a flippin' loud voice. No insult to Mrs lyn intended, rexfart does that sort of stuff.

If only I had noticed some sausage in that ! Toad-in-the-Hole (with gravy) is a most excellent dish. Looks a bit odd, but it's great. I'll concede that fresh peas work much better with this dish. If anybody knows where a Brit can get the authentic Southern cuisine in Blighty, I'd love to know. RPG's are fairly cheap thesedays.

Eggs ? Don't get me started. This very evening I watched 'Hairy Bikers' cooking Quail Scotch Eggs with Salmon. My tongue was nearly on the carpet.

Yes she's loud, especially when she's complaining. Of course, I can't hear Jack without my hearing aids.

She didn't like the bangers and said "they put ketchup on the Mexican food".

Now, why anyone would order Mexican food in England is beyond me, but then she discovered fish and chips and was in heaven after that. Oh lamb, too. She cooks it here all the time now.

StandardsGuy has convinced me that I need to eat more canned peas. I'd sooner be in an insulted msjority than a pompous minority.

Hopefiuly StandardsGuy will realize that I am having a mild rip on him. Eating canned peas is hardly the measure of a man. He made a very valid point about frozen veg. Alas, I do not think it has much bearing on the general question.

I have no idea what canned goods my wife stocks, she does the shopping. Frozen stuff is all well and fine, but the issue was preservation of food. My interpretation is that we are talking longer than stuff can be chucked in a freezer for.

On point of principle, if somebody called me trash for eating a certain food product, I would do so.

The idea was not to insult you, but feel sorry for you if you have to eat it, unless you choose to eat it. You chose to be insulted, rather than your wife. Don't blame me, it's your doing!

This is the second time you have insulted my wife. I have tried to make light of the matter. There is a fine line between banter and outright insulting behaviour. You disgust me.

I almost thought that was StandbyGuy you was talking about . . .

I shouldn't giggle, but that's quite witty wordplay . I'm running for the hills if he comes back with IdiotSmith . Praise be that I chose a short username, though I'm sure that would be no obstacle to CR4's creative minds .

Nah, em ne come back, still on standby!

Em not bringing idiot either. Sem forgot old thread!

Me think of Kris. Will find creative name . . .

Kindergarden Rouser In Standby! (ups there we go again)

Kingfisher robs industrial servants

Kind robber in silence

Knocker Rocker Idiot Shocker (is there really an I in your name?)

I like best

Knitting Royal in Shoochester

Oh crap, I forgot acronyms ! Fair play to you, I sorta walked into that one .

Dex may have been trying to be funny. He only got half way.

I think it was a question of speed. He wanted to go really fast, but he was only half fast.

I would expect the recycling process of these all plastic bottom cans will not be significantly different from the plastic lined metal cans recycled today.

I disagree. Steel from recycled and melted-down cans (or cars, or kitchen sinks, whatever) can be used for virtually anything that can be made from "virgin" steel. The plastic lining used in some cans just burns away in the refining process.

But depending on the type of plastic, it may or may not have much of a recycling market. In my city, the little triangle has to have a 1, a 2, or a 5 in it. If 1 or 2, it has to be a bottle, can't be a tub. A 6 has no place in our recyclables. Nobody wants it or can use it.

In addition, some plastics can only be recycled into limited types of secondary products, such as plastic lumber or bags, etc. It's similar to paper, which can only be recycled to the point the fibers get too short to hold together in new paper. That's why you see only a percentage of the feedstock in recycled paper is "post-consumer."

The polypropylene is a 5...not sure about the EVOH layer. A few companies would be pretty happy to see these take off...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EVOH
It's not something I would get excited about. For out of season vegetables, frozen are the best, regardless of the canning method. Otherwise, I'm fine with a regular can.

In a neighboring town, the recycle center has a special process that takes ANY plastic and turns it into its basic constituents. I had heard of this process as an experimental process years ago, and now it is in use.

"Canned soup ain't that pretty anyway," Yes, and no.

We have all seen a can of commercially prepared soup dumped into a bowl or pan, and it generally is a goopy mess. My canned stuff looks like this (I don't have a pic of my own work, this image is swiped from here).

At work we recently discussed home canning and I brought some of my stuff to work to show, passing out some varied samples. One individual has elected to keep the canned foods in her office, commenting it looks like folk art. Pickled eggs, beef stew, applesauce, chicken and beef... Of course, when you can stuff yourself you can spend as much time on it as you wish, it isn't intended to be an industrial process of hundreds of thousands of portions.

Maybe the clear cans will encourage the food processors to be a little more aware of visual appeal (curb appeal, if you will) of their finished products.

I love the look of fresh canned stuff in jars. Don't know if that love will transfer over to mass produced stuff though. Doubt it.

It might force them to live up to the hype though. Ever open a can of, (name the brand), vegetable beef soup and find one tiny piece of meat?

Id rather see the actual product than a picture

Yeah, me too. I've discovered the pic on the printed label isn't always representative of the stuff I find inside the metal can.

And to see the food to water ratio.

I like these. The customer and QA visual inspection cameras can now see the product. I can think of only one possible drawback at this time. It is not clear to me from the article I skimmed if a regular can opener can be used to open one of these when the pull tap fails.

The article says the PP cans use 'traditional' easy open and non-easy open caps, so you should be able to open with a rotary wheel can opener... the one that cuts through the lid, but doesn't look like you could use the type of can opener that slices the can sidewall.

I'm hoping the mfgr will come and visit with us regarding these sorts of questions.

I'm wondering about impact. I have dented a few cans in my life. When dropped on the counter (or fall from my shopping bag onto the paved parking lot) will these split, or bounce, or outright rupture, or pop the top?

The problem with a dented metal can is that a loss of a seal can happen without detection. The denting deformation itself often masks the telling bulge a spoiled metal can produces. I suspect these plastic cans may not be as resilient to impact as a metal can but will likely more clearly show when the seal is broken.

Milacron LLC is a BIG company. I don't see them getting in to this is it has no future.

After all, Gen's X and Y grew up with plastics.

My wife will buy them. She's into that stuff.

Why do they need "Extended Shellfire"?

What about cost factor as shipping cost will be high compared to local PET containers?.

My BIGGEST concern would be the BPA, and other estrogen like contaminants that the plastics used would leach into my food. I personally am convinced that 'plastic contamination' is at least one major factor, in why I have diabetes.

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/03/tritan-certichem-eastman-bpa-free-plastic-safe

What is wrong with glass containers, with a shrink wrapped label, which still allows you a window to see the food, and if done properly could protect from flying glass if dropped?

I can't imagine, that the manufacturing process is that much less expensive, than a glass container, is it? The only real 'short term' financial consideration here is weight/transportation costs. I would expect that 'in the long run', once the BPA issue has been legally proven to be harmful, that the plastics industry will have to shell out more than they ever bargained for, when the feces hits the oscillator! So, the indemnity insurance on that particular product, for that particular use had better cover their losses once the personal injury lawyers sink their teeth into this one!

You didn't read the article?

"Klear Can's advantages include the ability to show the quality of the food products to the consumer at the point of sale. Other advantages include:"

• "BPA-free (BPA or Bisphenol A, is a chemical used to make some hard plastic containers, and has been declared a toxic substance by Canada."

BPA is not used in all plastics. It is most common in PVC, polycarbonate and epoxies.

Apparently, you didn't read the article I quoted, which says: that, even products labeled "BPA free" are rife with other estrogen based contaminants. So, they aren't out of the woods by just placing that label on them.

All liars use words. This does not mean that all words are lies.

Besides, you could just buy only fresh food and eat better in the first place.

Just to be clear, I am NOT calling you or anyone in this discussion a liar.

I did read the article. Mother Jones?

This statement, "are rife with other estrogen based contaminants", and this one, ""almost all" commercially available plastics that were tested" is so alarmist and totally unfounded as to be laughable.

The, "almost all", "that were tested" could mean anything.

Too much water will kill you, too.

MSDS are not specific for many reasons, but those for PP list no hazardous chemicals. There may well be toxic leachants in some other "food grade" plastics. There may just as easily not be.

I suggest that you will be able to purchase glass and metal containers for the rest of your life, so you're not in any immediate danger from plastic containers.

Remember, glass containers all have a soft plastic seal that may well contain DPA, or other bad additives.

I'd stick completely with metal containers with seams that you know have not been soldered.

Pain killers approved by the FDA, and taken as prescribed aren't supposed to kill you either; but, tell that to my friend who's wife died from taking Vioxx.

Just saying, just because a government agency has given something their blessing, is NOT a guarantee of safety. In fact, more and more we seem to be playing Russian roulette with ANYTHING the government has dipped its tainted paw into. You can thank the corrupt legislators, who take handouts from lobbyists to turn a blind eye to public safety, for that.

No arguments here.

"The only real 'short term' financial consideration here is weight/transportation costs."

One buzzword from the article: Stackable.

Inbound freight of food containers would most certainly be a direct cost that is passed to the consumer. A trailer loaded with non-stackable empty metal cans will be full (volume) long before it is full (weight). The trucking company charges by the trip; if I can get, say, five times as many plastic cans into that trailer for the same inbound freight price, that is not an inconsiderable reduction in production cost.

However, today a can of namebrand peas or corn sells for, what, about a dollar (USD) at retail? The to-consumer price might go down a few cents... assuming the price of the plastic cans is comparable to the price to manufacturer of the current metal cans.

You said: A trailer loaded with non-stackable empty metal cans will be full (volume) long before it is full (weight).

Except that, the can these things are replacing are very stackable, and appear to essentially be replacements for the existing packaging. Both of which, are usually placed in a very stackable box, so unless you can put forth any other suggestions, right now the only reason for doing this appears to be the weight savings. UNLESS, there is a back room deal being made to make this the new de-facto standard. Whatever the ultimate reason, you can bet that money is the bottom line factor, for why this idea is even being floated.

I guess you must have x-ray viewing.

I think the word he meant might have been nestable- a definite bonus over empty conventional canning packages.

Yes, thank you, nestable is a better word to express my thought... at that time.

However, I simply parroted the buzzword from the article, and your comment caused me to have a closer look. I had made an assumption (we all know about those), rather than understanding what was being said in the article. A closer look at the image of the plastic cans, unless the pic is deceptive, shows straight sided containers, not slope sided containers. These aren't going to nest as I had first thought they would.

So my previous comment about saving on inbound freight is baseless, and SWB123 is correct. No freight savings of any kind.

I'm going to throw him a GA for the catch.

I just did the same, and realized a likely basis for Milacron's involvement in this.

Eliminate shipping of empty containers.

A draft angle could easily be incorporated into this design than would make it nestable, similar to a yogurt or margarine tub. On the other hand, Milacron may be looking at the possibility of supplying systems to large plants that let them mold their own- the only additional process would be an injection molder, and so for perhaps $500-$1,000,000 installed cost (depending on number of cavities/ machine size) and the additional labour and support they get rid of all the incoming empty cans and replace them with bulk polymer- a huge factor that would probably interest a few players.

On second thoughts, the multilayer system will probably cost a fair bit more- especially with a 32 cavity mold!!!!- but any one needing near that sort of capacity will be using thousands of cans a day.

Yeah, sloping the container to make them nestable would be pretty easy, but one of the pitch elements is the plastic cans use the current packaging lines without alteration, allowing a seamless shift from metal to plastic cans on the line. There may be some retort time adjustments required by the thicker walls of the plastic... dunno.

"... that let them mold their own" Yes, along the line of blow-molded milk jugs, made at the dairy. More to it, but it's only money (it's fun to spend other peoples money, ain't it?)

Yes, Nestable, that makes more sense to me now.

But, similar glass containers could be made nestable; which, then brings in another factor of breakage/loss for figuring the 'pros and cons' of using these containers vs. glass.

However, a laminated container with a glass lining makes more sense to me in that regard, as opposed to plastic alone; IF, it turns out there really is a valid health concern.

They tell us why it's, (maybe), better than a steel can, but why is it better than all of the other clear plastic containers that we already buy? Maybe the heat resistance?

I've one of these in the fridge right now. Seems fine.

"I've one of these in the fridge right now", could be part of it.

The EVOH inner layer is a good oxygen barrier so things stay fresh without refrigeration. (Like metal)

I'd think that's more important than heat resistance.

They're also probably a little lighter than metal.

Yeah, but it doesn't go in the fridge until after it's opened...otherwise it just sits on a store shelf.

I don't think this idea is going to fly, along the lines of what Kris said.

I just went to the grocery store and intentionally looked for things in clear containers, in the canned vegetable and fruit aisle.

I found some pinto beans, pears, and apricots in clear glass containers. They looked gross. Color was bland, and all of the mushy stuff settled to the bottom.

The cans all had labels with pretty pictures on them.

"Maybe the heat resistance?"

The article says the new food containers are good to 265^oF. The magic number for canned foods (vegetables, meats) is 240^oF. I've wondered about things like mayo, mustard, catsup, etc, in the plastic containers... suspect there is LOTS of chemical preservatives in those as opposed to being preserved by the canning process itself.

I don't know. Both my Hellmans mayo, (in plastic), and some pinto beans in the cabinet, (in a can), use disodium EDTA as a preservative.

That and ascorbic acid seem to be pretty common.

Disodium EDTA (ethylenediamineteraacetic acid, disodium salt- yikes, say that five times fast) is a very common chelating agent used in everything from food to water treatment to cleaning chemicals. Its function is to lock up dissolved metallic ions to prevent them catalyzing breakdown of the food (very useful for seafood), while ascorbic acid is an antioxidant and preferentially ties up free oxygen etc. to stop oxidation (and the yucky colors that go along with it).

Oh yeah, and some members of the forum may know l-ascorbic acid better by another name- vitamin c.

IF they sell enough to make it worthwhile customizing a facility to recycle them, the lid won't be a problem (could be as easy as an electromagnetic belt to orient them for a guillotine). The bigger question is likely whether there is an end market that can incorporate the EVOH without a problem. This is always a concern with multi-polymer systems, and actually leads to truckloads of the stuff being landfilled every day.

On a previous post- there are several companies that make pyrolysis systems to break polymers down into a form of crude oil, as well as chemical depolymerisation systems for polyethylene terephthalate etc., but these do reverse a fair bit of the value put into the polymer to begin with and usually are less preferable than straight up regrinding and reuse.

I've read, and contributed, to this one and aside from being able to see inside the "can" I can see no advantage.

The argument that all plastics contain poisons is hard for me to swallow.

I can't see a cost savings, since the "cans" may be recycled, but not re-used economically. There may be one, I don't know. 32 Cavity injection molds are VERY expensive, but many "cans" can be produced rapidly.

I don't see any weight savings, since the contents far outweigh the container.

We still have steel/metal ends.

Finally, Kortec has been in the plastic food container business already and they were just purchased by a huge maker of plastics processing equipment.

Seems to me this is another product in search of a market.

As I said, this idea intrigues me. For me it's prolly the appeal of the transparent can, looking similar to my own home preserved stuff.

This may simply be a marketing gimmick... there are consumers who buy packages.

Good points made in this discussion, I appreciate all of the insights you guys provided.

I go the "green" route, and start committing to using recycled steel for the existing can line, and advertising it. There are a lot of people that hate plastic.

Plastic has it's place, but I don't see the logic in combining metal and plastic into one container. Make it one or the other, and make it easy to recycle.

What I learn from them that they mfr injection moulding machine for export not the cans.

Excellent idea. It's rather...tsssk. ..blatent.

They own both.

"Earlier this year, Kortec was acquired by Milacron LLC, a global provider of high-precision plastics processing technologies."

I would be concerned that the producers would add "stuff" to the food to make it "look good". Red dye number 40 anyone?

Mixed emotions here.

Will I feel better with producers that do or don't care what the product looks like? While I know my preferences, are my preferences really good for me? Has the drive for profit always been the correct path?

Stay tuned!

Better than red dye #2, I suppose.

As you say, canners might lipstick their products... wondering how much of that goes on today? Organoleptic property improvement coating, anyone?