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How to Measure Very Low Sound Pressure Level?

08/03/2014 1:11 AM

Hi,
For part of my scientific trial, I like to record rat nibbling food sound. The sound will very low sound pressure and at different frequency sound from human hearing. Any device available to record the sounds?
How about using smartphones apps download from Google Play, will that can be accurate and trustable?
Please assist me to find a good and accurate sound with correct frequency.
Thank you
Devarajen

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#1

Re: How to measure very low sound pressure level ?

08/03/2014 1:17 AM
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#2

Re: How to measure very low sound pressure level ?

08/03/2014 2:04 AM

Different frequency or sound intensity level?

The two are not the same.

You say "scientific" then say smartphone and app.

Any truly meaningful research will require a:

Sound intensity probe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and a digital recorder.

You can rent them:

Sound Intensity Measurements : Gracey & Associates

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#3

Re: How to measure very low sound pressure level ?

08/03/2014 2:37 AM

Hire some cats. They might be able to eliminate such sounds even before the sounds can be recorded.

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#4

Re: How to measure very low sound pressure level ?

08/03/2014 3:09 AM

Get a decent hi-fi mic and preamp.

Once you have captured a decent quality signal you can do what you want with it.
The study of microphones and acoustics is complex with different responses and weightings for different applications, but it doesn't really matter as long as you can characterize the response of your equipment.
It's about good scientific method, note down the equipment you use record good data.

I expect the chances of getting a response curve for you smartphone (without setting it up and measuring it yourself) are slim.

Del

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#5

Re: How to measure very low sound pressure level ?

08/03/2014 9:31 AM

First, you need to better qualify your requirements.

You should determine the sensitivity of the instrument you need to capture based on microphone proximity and the SPL of the source.

Second, you need to qualify the actual frequency range of source you want to capture. When you say frequencies beyond human hearing you need a different kind of microphone than standard mics.

Human hearing extends up to about 18 kHz (I am assuming that you need to measure above human hearing, not below). To go beyond that you need more sophisticated equipment like this mic from Brüel & Kjær.

Third, you need to consider the environment you use to measure in. High frequencies tend to "beam" from their source and they also bounce quite well.

To lower the noise floor of the environment you probably need to create a small acoustic chamber designed to absorb sound from the inside and also keep sound out from the outside.

There are acoustic foams you can apply to the inside of the chamber to absorb sound. The mic will then only pick up sound from the source and not the walls. This is important because high frequencies bounced in small chambers can cancel or augment certain sounds and frequencies like small waves of water do in a bucket or bath tub.

Even the microphone can cause reflected sound, so a small profile mic will help.

Lastly, actually recording high frequency sounds above 18kHz will be a challenge. Most audio recording gear is digital and typically samples at 44.1 kHz. The nyquist point is 1/2 that frequency, so the maximum you can record is 22 kHz.

There are other sampling frequencies such as 96 kHz and 192 kHz. The latter will yield a recording frequency of up to 96 kHz. I guess what I am leading to with all this is that it would be good to team up with an audio expert to get a complete understanding of your system needs, then you can go about borrowing, renting, or buying what you need for your trial.

As with anything, the more you look into it the deeper the rabbit hole gets.

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#6

Re: How to measure very low sound pressure level ?

08/03/2014 2:54 PM

"The sound will very low sound pressure and at different frequency sound from human hearing."

How do you know this? Because someone performed studies and analysed the spectral content of their audio recordings? If so, then why not use the same or similar instrumentation that they used?

Moreover if, as you say, the sound pressure and frequency is 'different from human hearing,' then why are you asking about devices and apps (smartphones, et al) which are specifically designed to respond to sound pressures and frequencies in the same range as those of human hearing?

This doesn't strike you as a bit odd? It does me; you are essentially asking the same kind of question as "I know I need a screwdriver and so what sort of wrench do you guys recommend?"

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#7
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Re: How to measure very low sound pressure level ?

08/03/2014 3:23 PM

Exactly. Why design a mic (or speaker) with frequency response you can't hear anyway.

I think OP is confusing frequency with sound pressure.

I also think the words scientific and smartphone apps are not compatible/realistic.

I think the OP is a young. He's gone from RFID tags for goats to recording rats eating.

Perhaps he's looking to keep the rats from eating his RFID tagged goat feed.

OP, what are you trying to accomplish?

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#8
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Re: How to measure very low sound pressure level ?

08/03/2014 4:04 PM

"OP, what are you trying to accomplish?"

If I were to hazard a guess? I'm guessing that the OP is looking to design/build a rat detector. Just a hunch.

If the OP is concerned about detecting low SPLs, then I'm guessing that the food in question is not generally accessible to the OP, else he/she could place a small mic next to the food and the problem is solved. If the SPL is still too low, the OP could use a suitable mic preamp and, again, the problem is solved.

Frequency range? If it's not (entirely) within the same range as human hearing - there is certainly some overlap, given that it is possible for humans to hear rats nibbling food - then the inaudible parts are either infrasonic or ultrasonic, or both. Given the nature of the sound source, my money's on infrasonic.

If this is the case, then the OP may need a transducer sensitive enough to respond to faint infrasound.

On the flip side, that humans can hear the sound of rats nibbling food, there is obviously some overlap and possibly the OP can make do with an audio-only mic in the usual human frequency range; it depends on the OP's final objective(s).

If truly a scientific study then, yes, the OP may need (a) transducer[s] which span(s) the entire (unspecified) frequency range in question.

If a rat detector then a standard, possibly highly-directional audio mic should suffice.

If infrasound which, by the way, is not very directional due to the long wavelengths - then a different transducer will be probably be necessary and will probably need to be placed relatively near the source of the infrasound.

Depending on the OPs objective(s), it may not be strictly necessary for the OP to hear the audio signal so much as be able to analyse it. Spectrum analysers do a far better job for the quantitative part and, if a detector, digital signal processing techniques to filter and characterise the signal.

All guesses of course and necessarily so given the paucity of information revealed by the OP thus far.

Perhaps the OP might benefit by being a little more forthcoming?

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#9
In reply to #8

Re: How to measure very low sound pressure level ?

08/03/2014 4:19 PM

The SNAP will be readily detected by the smart phone's microphone.

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: How to measure very low sound pressure level ?

08/03/2014 4:22 PM
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#14
In reply to #10

Re: How to measure very low sound pressure level ?

08/04/2014 9:56 AM

Sorry, what is her name?

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#11
In reply to #9

Re: How to measure very low sound pressure level ?

08/03/2014 10:45 PM

How big are the rats?

I am not a rat!

I never told on Jimmy 'the cheese' , I am innocent of dese accusatons....

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#12

Re: How to Measure Very Low Sound Pressure Level?

08/04/2014 9:16 AM

Dear All,
Thank you very mush for the all the feedback given. I learn allot from your comments.
Yup.. I am not scientific guy.. I am young entreprenuer looking to create some niche product for my area of interest,agricultural.
Wow...your answers getting too technical to me.I can capture few points only.
Basically what I want, is to record the sound of rat nibbling the foods. Later I want to use the recorded sound to playback at selected points to attract certain preys to the agricultural crop areas.
That is my idea...so what say you as expert in subject matter?Will be workable?
Thank you

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#15
In reply to #12

Re: How to Measure Very Low Sound Pressure Level?

08/04/2014 11:35 AM

It sounds bonkers to me.
If there are prey animals they will make the noise themselves. (or provide other indications of their presence to the predators)

If there are no prey animals, there is no point in attracting predators.
QED

Del

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#16
In reply to #12

Re: How to Measure Very Low Sound Pressure Level?

08/04/2014 11:55 AM

So what we are building here is not a rat presence detector, but a rat presence SIMULATOR. Sounds cool!

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#17
In reply to #12

Re: How to Measure Very Low Sound Pressure Level?

08/04/2014 1:56 PM

"I want to use the recorded sound to playback at selected points to attract certain preys to the agricultural crop areas."

To attract predators to agricultural areas (rats are the prey and are presumed to already be in the area) are you proposing to play these recordings at amplified levels?

Not all predator species rely on air-transmitted sound to locate their prey. Snakes, for instance, 'hear' via detecting through-the-ground vibrations via the jawbone (connected directly to the snake's cochlea. Snakes do have a fully-developed inner ear and can hear, contrary to some long-established beliefs. Some snakes can even hear in stereo by detaching the lower jawbone, an evolutionary development which helps them better locate their prey and eat it too)

Owls, on the other hand, locate both by sight and by hearing. Barn owls have extraordinary hearing abilities and can locate from a distance, mice under cover of heavy snow and beneath the ground in shallow burrows. Unlike most birds owls have a frequency range comparable to humans'.

Yet other rat-predator species locate their prey primarily by scent; pit vipers by scent, vibration and thermally. Pit vipers can 'see' (in a manner of speaking) in infrared.

What predator species are most prevalent in your area, and what senses to they primarily use to locate their prey? The nature of an effective lure will depend heavily on the nature of the predator, yes?

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#18
In reply to #12

Re: How to Measure Very Low Sound Pressure Level?

08/04/2014 3:43 PM

I think you said it wrong. I think, you meant that you are trying to attract the natural predators, of these pests, to facilitate the control of the rat population so that they don't eat the crops, correct?

IF, you list all the predators of rats, you need to read all you can about the predators, and what attracts them to their prey. Just off the top of my head, the sound that rats make is probably the least of physical attributes, which attracts their predators.

Snakes are essentially deaf, so they are dependent on the vision and movement, which for them their vision extends into the infrared spectrum.

Eagles obviously can't hear mice from their vantage point high in the sky, so they too must rely on movement to zero in on their prey.

Frogs if they are big enough will eat mice, and I can only assume that the same holds true for rats, but they have to be within tongue striking distance, of where the frogs are. I don't really know what all they track their prey by, but, movement too is probably paramount.

So, what does that leave you? Which predators are you expecting to attract?

You might be better off just putting a rattle snake pit around your crops.

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#13

Re: How to Measure Very Low Sound Pressure Level?

08/04/2014 9:35 AM

Rent an ultra sound listening device such as UE or SDT they even come with dish microphone. Designed for ultra-sound only. If you want audible then go with conventional microphones, I am not sure if you can get both audible and ultrasound together.

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#19

Re: How to Measure Very Low Sound Pressure Level?

08/05/2014 11:51 PM

You just need to acquire some cats....

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#20

Re: How to Measure Very Low Sound Pressure Level?

08/07/2014 2:22 PM
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#21

Re: How to Measure Very Low Sound Pressure Level?

08/10/2014 1:01 AM

Hi all,

Thank you very much for all the information given. Specially Europium_mk11 and SWB 123.

Will worked out from all the info been provided.

Thank you

Regards

Devarajen

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