Is Water The Key To Shutting Down South Dakota's Boom?

So what going on in South Dakota?

Oops!

It's the one on top.

It's all your fault...you've got both South and North capitalized in your "location" line.

The EPA claims this is based on science. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

I'm not understanding your point. Do you believe that the EPA has no power?

Do you believe that these new regulations will have no impact?

My goodness, you are a naive one. Bless your heart.
http://kbia.org/post/northern-states-enjoy-oil-boom-free-missouri-river-water-video

Solar your right.

His done this fear propaganda BS before like with the supposedly new coal power plant rules that haven't come out yet and won't for a while. By the way we finished building the two new coal fired power plants last June one in CA and one in NM both are up and running meeting the up coming requirements. So much for being shut down.

It would be nice if the guy read and understood the actual regulations and laws. Instead of going by news articles that only give half truths.

Lyn's concerns are bogus also washes, streams, creeks, ponds, etc. already fall under the CWA, 404, and the state 401 since 1986. Again you should read up on your states regulations and your federal regulations.

This new addition is to get man-made storm water ditch, ponds, prairie potholes, etc add to the CWA and to restrict ACOE.

No EPA and ACOE do not have the staff. Their are a total of three individuals from San Diego District that cover Southern CA, AZ, NM, UT, and NV ( total of 4,000+ jobs over 5 Acres or more). Since I've been in my region CA, AZ, NV, NM, and TX they have been out once in four years to look at construction sites. Another thing to look at their are only 5 I repeat 5 states that EPA has oversight all. The rest are run by their state. I know ND and SD run there own show they just have to follow the board regulations that the feds put out in front of them.

No, if you are correct, my concerns are NOT bogus, just late.

Under "Definitions", it seems to cover just about every bit of water that has ever, or might in the future, exist.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2011-title33-vol3/pdf/CFR-2011-title33-vol3-part328.pdf

For "North" Dakota, EPA jurisdiction would only cover the blue areas, as per the definitions.

Here's a US map for some perspective:

Fear not solareagle, as a condo dweller you are safe.

I found the rest of the maps. The EPA would only have authority over the areas colored in blue, regardless of ownership.

http://www.cfact.org/2014/09/02/wotus-all-ten-of-epas-regional-wetland-maps/

Here's a high def version of the entire US.

http://science.edgeboss.net/sst2014/documents/epa/national2013.pdf

No it won't.

They will soon have jurisdiction over your property, and since they aren't officially considered "law enforcement", no warrants will be required...only a suspicion that you may be doing something that "might" affect the runoff from your property.

I actually think they already do have jurisdiction, this just sets it in stone.

Is there a possibility that those vehicles the boys were riding down the hill in Arkansas could cause a washout by killing natural vegetation? Probably.

It.seems that the provision about the water being used for commercial.purposes may give me a pass. Not gonna sweat it, I'll be dead soon enough and then it.will be my heir's problem.

I don't see it affecting small landowners like me.

I didn't see that provision. In the definitions section of my link, it says this:

the final authority regarding

Clean Water Act jurisdiction remains with EPA.

For people like solareagle that have an irrational fear of conservatives and think they all belong to Westboro, here's a different scenario:

A "right wing" administration is in place.

During a geological survey by the EPA, several marijuana plants are spotted and the local authorities are tipped off. (Probable cause).

The three pot plants are on the property of a young couple with a couple of kids. The husband is an IBM programmer and the wife works as a teacher's aid at the kids' school.

Acting on a tip from the EPA, the local cops storm the house in the middle of the night with military style weapons.

The husband, fearing for his family and not knowing what's going on, brandishes a weapon. The local police proceed to blow him away, putting 60 rounds into him.

The wife is booked on cultivation charges and handed a 12 year prison sentence, while the kids are raised in foster care. The property, of course, is confiscated.

THAT could never happen.

http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/jason-westcott-raid/

Just more fear mongering. Can't wait to have the f***ing EPA in on the act.

328.3a (1) and (3) all waters used in interstate or foreign commerce, now, in the past, or ever in the future leaves plenty of latitude for our keepers.

What the hell, I wouldn't mind going out in a hail of bullets.

Adoptions are final on Tuesday, then all the kids can deal with it.

You have to read the whole thing. It includes all possible tributaries.

) All other waters such as intra-

state lakes, rivers, streams (including intermittent streams), mudflats, sandflats, wetlands, sloughs, prairie potholes, wet meadows, playa lakes, or natural ponds, the use, degradation or destruction of which could affect inter-state or foreign commerce including any such waters:

prairie potholes?

Why is it that a simple copy/paste from a government document gets screwed up every time?

Anyway, just the fact that people on CR4 get so damned angry with these threads tells me that it's possibly time to vacate America.

I wish I knew of another place that offered our former freedom. I can't find one.

From Wiki: Prairie potholes are depressional wetlands (primarilyfreshwater marshes) found most often in the Upper Midwest, especially North Dakota, South Dakota, Wisconsin, and Minnesota. Prairie potholes are depressional wetlands (primarilyfreshwater marshes) found most often in the Upper Midwest, especially North Dakota, South Dakota, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

That's pretty damn depressional itself.

They only have to be wet some of the time, not always.

This has the potential to be a full abdication of private property rights...everyone's.

I don't like secret back doors. If they don't like fracking, they need to present the evidence to get rid of it, and outlaw it if the evidence has merit.

Otherwise they need to leave us alone or allow us to elect EPA officials.

Did I just say "allow" us?

CR4P!

BOOK 'EM DANNO!!!

Now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout!

cant wait to have more of these potheads dead and gone! FERTILIZER!!!

Personally I am not too worried about it. Given our states well above average track record of managing its own resources properly I have strong suspicions that if given an enough provocation our state will kick the EPA right out.

Especially if they are trying to go for a outright money grab at our states own expense.

If they can make things legal in one state that are illegal according to federal law there is no reason our state won't follow up with a similar tactic and legally overrule the EPA at a local level.

Pretty hard to enforce a stupid law when local law and the good ol boys program is all too happy to block it. Especially if we have the oil industry plus every farmer rancher and landowner in our state backing our side!

What are they going to do? Throw our whole state in jail if we collectively decide to not comply?

That's a good point.

By willfully choosing to ignore federal law, both on our southern border and the legalization of recreational marijuana, the feds have effectively removed themselves from the equation on everything, thereby empowering the states to live by their own rules.

They have set up a situation in which states will win in court every time.

The unspoken law of unintended consequences.

GA.

Don't be surprised if you see Eric Holder's cousins in your driveway.

Just making sure that the elections are fair. Aren't they adorable?

I think this is a non-issue.

Thats fine with me! I have a backhoe tractor and lots of overgrown brush covered land that hasn't seen human traffic since the last indians moved out last century and I don't ask questions about how deep you need a hole dug or how out of the way it needs to be when I dig it.

What politician wouldn't what a guy like me as a buddy in this state?

We'll just have to see how it all goes down.

In the meantime, maybe do the tire fires at night. No sense sending out a beacon to an illegal government.

They are flaring 10.3 billion cubic feet (BCF) of natural gas every month in N. Dakota.

That's wantonly burning it, instead of USING it for those who may not know.

You want to talk about criminal acts? There's one for you. Where is the EPA while this is going on?

What's a few burning tires thrown into the bargain?

Flaring wells in normal and has to be done to determine a number of things abut he well including its potential for long term viability as a NG source well on top of being a oil well.

BTW that 10.3 billion cubic feet of NG is roughly New York city's average NG usage for a little over a week.

BS! It's burning because of greed, not need.

Your attitude about the environment is well know, as is who's paying your salary.

Bakken Shale Gas Flaring Highlights Global Problem - The ...

"North Dakota's governor attributed the high volume of gas flared in his state to the great speed at which the Bakken shale has been developed, outpacing gas recovery efforts. Oil output ramped up from200,000 barrels per day five years ago to just over a million today, in a region lacking the dense oil and gas infrastructure of Texas and other states with a legacy of high production."

Okay fine.

The media knows more about what we do in the oil field and why than those of us who actually work here right alongside the engineers and companies that deal with this stuff directly on the actual oil well sites.

As far as my paycheck it's big and I don't have to work very hard to get it. Thats what i care about.

"As far as my paycheck it's big and I don't have to work very hard to get it"

That really pisses me off!

I believe the press, in this case. I remember what BP said about their "small" oil leak in the Gulf. Trust us!

Well I don't trust you in this case either.

What the field engineers say and know to be the truth and what the big heads in the corporate tower say to the media tend to be far different.

When on a well site lying to us about what's going on beneath our feet when we are doing the work for them really doesn't make much sense. Especially when its our own equipment that is giving them the numbers that they use to make the decisions towards what happens next.

Do you really think field engineers are going to lie to other field engineers while working on the same project with all of our butts at risk if either 'F's things up? I don't!

Yes, but are you suggesting the the "big heads" inflated the very numbers that are published, that say that billions of cubic feet of gas are being flared?

Exclusive: Bakken flaring burns more than $100 million a ...

Gas Flaring as Seen from Space - Ceres

This picture from space says it better.

I just hate to see the waste. I wish there was a way they could compress it or liquify it and bring it to my house.

On a related note a number of small groups have proposed building semitrailer mounted NG burning gensets that could be parked at well sites that are not yet connected tot eh gas lines but have local utility power and a stable grid connection near them in order to do on the spot co gen using some of the flare gases to produce 500 KW to 1 - 2 MW of very cheap electricity.

So far the utilities companies are not against it being they have to build new and larger service systems to bring power in to run the well pumps so they really don't have a lot of issues with using their new line capacity to send power out and make money going the other way.

One major road block is the EPA of course. They do not want the flare gas going through an engine first and producing something useful from its energy because then it becomes a engine emissions gas and that's bad.

Kinda reminds me of the fire inspector that told our company that we can't store our pallets of bottled water in our shop boiler room any more because the plastic bottles pose a fire hazard.

Your tax dollars at work.

Making elecricity with it is a perfect idea.

I'm also wondering if the 1st amendment applies to the EPA. Global warming is as close to government establishment of religion as anything I've seen in my life.

I think we need the EPA around to get the really bad guys, but I also think that most of their teeth need to be knocked out. Lets take their guns away too. If they feel threatened they can call law enforcement.

These bureaucrats have had way too much power for way too long....and now they've been politicized, along with every other agency.

Well that was the plan.

If I recall the rough numbers right the basic study estimated that at any single point in time we could be producing 250- 1000+ MW of electrical power of which enough of it would also be getting locally used by the well pumps plus other local loads that the surplus could be sent out on much of the existing plus new grid infrastructure without causing problems.

The utility companies would be paying the genset owners the same rate that they pay for bulk power from the main power plants and reselling it at their normal prices plus would be able to sell the surplus out on to the open markets as a peak load supporting power stations due to the ability of the small portable station units being easy to bring on and offline in minutes.

The locals are for it, the oil companies have no problem with it the excess well gas being used for something productive until it can be placed in a pipeline and the utility companies win as well.

The problem is mostly politic based and that comes largely from the tree huggers/EPA who can't follow the concept that well gas in an open flare and well gas that went through an engine produce the same byproducts. The only difference is if a gen set is hooked upt a well the well won't be flaring at 100% flow rate but would be only gassing out at whatever the rate the genset is using.

The base argument I have heard is that they claim they can not measure what gases are in the well gas so it they can't allow it ti be used for larger scale co gen applications due to not being able to predict what emissions gases may be getting produced.

I and everyone else who works in the oil industry sasy BS being they can sample and measure every single well and its gas outputs down to PPM levels of the assorted gases that come out of a well.

Or at least thats the base of the story line I heard around here a few years ago. As of lately I have not heard much about the continuation of pursuing the concept.

I know there are a lot of well sites here that use the well gas to run on site gensets that power the well pumps and other electrical gear but as of lately I have not heard of a single one ever being set up with a large scale co gen unit and selling power back to the grid.

That would make too much sense.

The utilities just aren't bribing the right politicians.

I think we know who to blame for the flaring off.

I remember something like this from a couple of years ago, and the EPA was attempting to use the equipment fuel standards to shut them down...or something like that. It had nothing to do with fracking. It may have been some skirmish about diesel.

Anyway, the EPA is now filled with radical leftists that are against anything that doesn't come from sun or wind. I also don't doubt that they are too stupid to realize that flaring off and burning in a gen set are going to produce the same output.

...or they fully realize it, and know that a running generator can't be seen from space, and make the same type of statement that flaring can.

"Anyway, the EPA is now filled with radical leftists"

Don't be ridiculous.

The EPA is filled with rank and file clerks who could care less as long as they don't have to do much.

Flaring is caused by greed. The mad rush to drill is purely to decrease the cost of the leases.

The oil could stay in the ground for years, but big oil would have to pay more.

They can hardly scrape by on the $93 BILLION of profit they now make.

That's $93 BILLION US DOLLARS EVERY YEAR.

It's hard for me to have a beef with the EPA in the face of such obscene profits for big oil.

The single greatest profiter from oil in this country is the government...and they don't even have to work for it.

The EPA and the Sierra Club are slowly morphing into the same entity.

https://secure.sierraclub.org/site/Advocacy?cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=13859

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-Texas/2014/05/24/Sierra-Club-Sues-EPA

You've got a senator that seems to be worried about this. I got the right state this time!

http://www.thune.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2014/5/epa-power-grab-could-hit-landowners-with-hefty-fines

That's why I always treat you with respect, TCM.

"Never upset a man who owns both a backhoe and a back forty." (The unspoken second part is 'They'll never find your body.')

Not sure why everyone is sweating. Its more of a play to remove the 404 regulations from Army Corps. Than anything else. I'm a member of AZ AGC and we have been fight this for about six months since it first came out. I'm my worried that all storm water systems would fall under them, then streams, ponds, wetlands, etc since they are already governed under the CWA and/or 404/401 regs.

I'm with Lyn on this one. If "they" think the runoff, brooks, ponds, and swamps on my land is better "managed" by "them"...come right ahead and try.

Even a ditch or large puddle qualifies.

Worse yet, if you dig a hole to plant a tree on your property, and the disturbed soil has any possibility of making it's way into a navigable waterway, you will likely have to apply for a permit or face fines if you get caught doing it without one.

They should have just simplified it and said, "Anything that has been, is, or ever gets "wet", is ours".

There are obviously more than a few here that aren't able to grasp that.

And just where is the EPA going to get the manpower to enforce all this crap?

Now that I think about it, they won't need a lot more manpower.

The way they catch un-permitted construction work around here is just to compare aerial photos from one year to the next...they probably even have software for it.

Any improvements made without permits, that can be seen from the sky, and they come knocking on your door handing you fines and penalties. I'm sure the EPA can do the same for any movement of dirt.

They also give us various incentives for confessing our sins and coming clean:

http://www.epa.gov/compliance/incentives/programs/index.html

Along with "Tell On Your Neighbor" campaigns.

http://blog.epa.gov/blog/2010/01/if-you-see-say/

For anyone that actually owns land and may not feel like getting a permit to plant next year's tomato garden, if you are even allowed, this publication posted by the Ga. Farm Bureau breaks it down into understandable language.

http://www.gfb.org/ditchtherule/WOTUS_information_toolkit.pdf

More from NFIB.

What are EPA and ACE proposing?
The EPA and ACE are have proposed to change the Clean Water Act's definition for "waters of the United States." Though traditionally limited to navigable waters, and adjacent waters, this new proposal would classify lands as waters of the United States if-at any point during the year-they have any water overflow.

The new rule would bring seasonal streams, ponds, ditches, depressions in fields, and large puddles into the CWA's jurisdiction.

http://www.nfib.com/article/epa-waters-rule-threatens-small-businesses-65795/

And before anyone gets worried about drones, don't. The EPA only uses manned aircraft at this time.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/reining-in-the-rumors-about-epa-drones/2012/06/16/gJQAwWjkhV_story.html

Just a small sample of what goes on under current rules:

http://www.wnd.com/2011/09/348077/

Bakerjohn got me reading up on all of the happy clap-trap on the clean power plan, and does anybody know where they get these numbers?

• Avoid up to 6,600 premature deaths, up to 150,000 asthma attacks in children, and up to 490,000 missed work or school days-providing up to $93 billion in climate and public health benefits; and

http://blog.epa.gov/epaconnect/2014/06/our-clean-power-plan-will-spur-innovation-and-strengthen-the-economy/

Somebody's lying alright. It ain't me.

As a little aside, one of my ventures off into info land was based on a statement from one of these talking heads, that climate change has a harsher impact on minority children...especially with asthma attacks among black children in inner cities.

I thought...what? How could that be?

Well, it took me 5 minutes to head over to the CDC and look at stats for cigarette smokers in urban areas, particularly black people. Guess what I found?

It ain't climate change causing asthma.

Nevermind. I got it.

I told my wife that if we don't buy a mansion in Beverly Hills this year, we will save at least $9 million.

She's already looking for other ways to spend the money.

File not found.

Me too.

Not surprising. I've tried to look at some youtube videos on this and the accounts have been terminated.

It's been raining here since last night, probably a couple of inches, and I can tell you, that from looking out over my yard, I have no jurisdiction over this piece of dirt I'm living on. Not by the new EPA rules.