Putting the Green Duck into the Evening's Nest

GA

I agree that moderate time (24~36 hr) energy storage systems seems to be the crux here. I'm not sure if this should be massive grid level or many small distributed at the sites of wind/solar power production forms of storage but averaging out the demand on the utility production seems like a good idea here. Rechargeable batteries are an obvious approach to electricity storage but the technology is an odd mix of old school and exotic materials that it makes me wonder if this is where the solution will be found. The storage technology that intrigues me is flywheel based. This can be scaled to handle both a domestic solar roof to provide that power just after sunset and power grid storage.

I wonder if that is what this thread is about.

currently wind is not really stored efficiently. they just freewheel and the wind races past. I really like some of the work I see with the basic liquid flow battery approach.

Have you seen how large the barns are that hold flow batteries, and the tanks? WOW
!

I like the idea of storing heat in gravel much better. Other than that, install a home scale ammonia generator, and learn how to combine that with gasoline or diesel, and yes, Mildred, you can burn ammonia in an ICE when combined with hydrocarbons in a blend. Or you can use a special high compression engine that achieves ignition every time once the compression self-ignition point is reached. The ammonia system produces more energy than it consumes, yes net output to the grid, net ammonia produced to be used as clean burning fuel in the special engine, that also can drive a generator. Store up only the needed ammonia, and you can have all the load leveling you can stand. The new engines do not use oil for lubrication, since ammonia burns without leaving any deposits.

Interesting concepts but with NH3 having a one atmosphere vapor point of -28°F (33°C) won't this just make for more logistic problems than it is worth at a solar energy plant in the desert of Australia?

Glad you mentioned that. Each skid that produces the ammonia also has its own container, and uses a heat pump to cool down the expanded product and condense it. Seem like it is well suited for the outback as well as nearly anywhere else. Just try freezing the dern stuff in Antarctica!

Solar: (1) Yes. I see your point that it is the high desert, and apparently there is no water there to play with.

(2)I fail to see the issue with the vapor point, as the ahydrous ammonia liquid is easily pumped through a manifold heater.

(3) For that matter, one could make a small Kalina cycle, purchase the needed ammonia (and pure water), and in a perfectly closed system the losses are rather small. One might be concerned with even the small fugitive vapor emissions of such a plant, although the Kalina cycle has been considered on large plants as well.

(4) Question is what would be logistically possible in the Outback?

Answer to Q4: 80% of the freight across Australia is carried by train. (It used to be fleets of semi's). If the passing loops for the freights were used as recharge systems, with maybe 50km of electrified track on either side of the passing loop, then that might be an alternative to expensive diesel.

Answer to Q1: There is a substantial quantity of surface salt water and artesian fresh water in the middle of Australia. http://www.environment.gov.au/water/environment/great-artesian-basin.
Use the sun energy to pump the water to where it is needed or could be used to supply renewable energy 'after hours'.

Or perhaps use the solar power to de-salt the salty, and put it to good use? Global water outlook in power industry is really beginning to focus on power demand (in the U.S.) in the arid southwestern states due to population shifts, and increasing demand for suitable potable water for the communities. Power generation needs to look at ways not only to reduce or eliminate water consumption in these areas, but also to seriously consider becoming net producers of clean water for public consumption, either from stack condensate (when plants run off natural gas), or when there is low-grade waste heat that fits the bill for certain desalination technologies as FO.

Agree on the growing links between electricity, water, people and pursuits ....
sounds like we engineers might still have a job here.

Who said anything about storing the ammonia at one atmosphere at any time? It just isn't done that way.

http://www.messib.eu/about_project/MESSIB_results/redox_flow_batteries.php

Excerpt:

"You could probably avoid the massive build out of power plants in the Middle East if you used water generation and storage to manage the peaks. For example, instead of needing to build more and more 'peakers' to cover the air conditioning demand in summer and in the middle of the day, you could just have a series of baseload plants and switch production to [desalination] production when demand is low and supply to the grid when demand is high," he said.

http://www.powermag.com/global-water-outlook-for-power-generation/?pagenum=4

The link is to the article source of the above quoted text. The entire global water outlook is something people need to get serious about as well.

We're burning enough natural gas every day in N. Dakota to power a lot of small, on-demand gas generating stations all over the world.

Maybe we should go back to heating, cooking and lighting with it.

Or reduce the demand by designing more efficient heating, cooking and lighting devices.

I've always thought pumped storage was cool.

Good point. Use the excess energy to pump a fluid somewhere , to be used later, in some fashion…Hydroelectric being just one …how about the old Roadrunner, Acme Corporation , wind up the rubber band approach….

First they were pushing solar and now they're back-peddling to coal. <expletive> politicians!

Politicians are prostitutes. You too, can have one do your bidding. All it takes is money.

Our money. Policitians are not just prostitutes, they're parasites. Leeches, feeding at the public till.

It's not even symbiotic relationship - unless you're a corporation.

One of these days it will come time to pay the piper, and it won't be pretty.

Yes but, the politicians will still have their lifetime perks, at our expense, of course.

Now you've done it. You've put me off my feed!

Thinking about leeches _{(politicians)} on Thanksgiving Day just ain't right.

I agree more than 100% on the corruption comments and up in the true north we are trying to make some changes. "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed, citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."

There are many ways to clean up the environment but only those controlled by the powerful ever get any political attention and most of these under perform at best.

www.canadiananticorruptionleague.org.

So when's Tony Abbot planning to renounce his British citizenship and become an Aussie.

After the "Bye bye, Betty" campaign has run its course?

Bingo.

Today's side story is the dropping oil (and gas) pricing with higher production being at the heart of this poker game, between USA-inc and OPEC headed by Saudi Arabia. I guess we should invest in more jerry cans and fill them to create our own home based 'price protection'. And I expect to see the pollies complain again because of reduced royalties and taxes from the current lower prices. Hang on, watch this space, and get your own seat at the game table by switching off a couple of lights a bit earlier each night! (A small 'Thanksgiving' story).

I read that as well but chose to pass on sharing

These

make much better rocket fuel after being eaten. A single five-pound bag would make enough fuel to send the entire human race to Andromeda.

In 30 milliseconds.

How long does it take to bring a gasturbine online? I know that it is better continuusly run, but then with the lack of good energy storage systems the alternative is to generate power on demand. This could be a gas turbine.

The problem then will be gas storage which is probably better understood.

Look at RamGen turbine, and then you come back and tell me how it takes...milliseconds possible idle to full load output. That does not mean milliseconds from dead stop to full load output. It takes a significant amount of time to spin up, probably all of one second, or maybe two, but again that depends on the rotor size, and the amount of starter power, as the torque required to produce angular acceleration is related to moment of inertia, as I recall.

If we are stuck with current gen, axial gas turbine Brayton cycle, it takes at least minutes to reach sync idle speed, and proably up to 30-45 mins to reach full load, depending on the bells and whistles (simple cycle or combined cycle makes a difference).

That's not even four million milliseconds.

ok, I probably deserved that for poor writing. Anyway, don't let that stop you from looking at the tremendous accomplishments of RamGen.

http://www.ramgen.com/apps_ASCE_breakthrough.html

They also make high capacity compressors.

Solar brine ponds and Rankine-cycle turbines using low-boiling-point fluorocarbons (or equiv) as the working fluid.

One thing Oz does not lack in abundance is sunshine, and solar ponds stay hot throughout the demand period. In the evening? The best time.

All that Outback and the pollies are talking about going back to coal.

What a bunch of <expletive> <expletive> <expletive> morons.

I don't like ORC machines as these are really never that efficient, and if they leak, it is really bad, and dangerous, as most of the cycle fluids considered are (1)hydrocarbons (fire hazard), or (2) refrigerants that contribute to upper atmosphere chemistry cycles (in one fashion or the other).

I prefer the SCC (supercritical carbon dioxide cycle) whether it is found in a piston engine type, or a closed Brayton turbine cycle. Solar ponds seem to be ideal for the piston variety, as alternating water and cool water on the cylinder jacket for a large piston is actually pretty good in getting the enclose fluid to expand and contract, and the result is hydraulic power to turn the generator. (I know of one company using this right now on solar ponds to power a water purification from seawater).

global seawaters technologies already has the equipment to do desal of high salinity waters, mine the salts, provide output power, and pure water to the locals.

http://www.ramgen.com/apps_ASCE_breakthrough.html

I have spoken with the CEO, and their chief engineer - both really great people! They want to put this technology everywhere sunshine is plentiful, and water is scarce. It can make a difference! It is sort of low tech, with some high tech items that sew it all together into a fabric of success!

There's always that crazy idea of using solar to split water into highly combustible hydrogen and oxygen.

I'm pretty sure that they even burn at night, and could possibly run turbines. Just a guess.

But...........................but, what will they do at night?

#19

You'd never make a good straight man.

Neither would you.

(I think we should just stick to being iconoclasts)

Is that anything like being grumpy old men?

Worse.

Have you not heard about the birds, bees .... and horizontal folk dancing in the dark?

....and Abbott appears to be ruling from spite.

If you think I'm hard the left, I really enjoy destroying the right wingers.

Not quite sure how many ways to say to leave me alone....but I'll get there.

Too bad Keating doesn't sit in a chair behind Abbot during parliament. All Abbott'd hear would be nonstop running commentary about Abbott's being "a dessicated little coconut" and "the honourable donkey from Great Britain" and "You're flat out counting past ten mate!" and "That's a f**king Boulevard Special, that is!" Pure hell, Keating-style.

I'd pay cash money to see that.

The problem I've noticed with most solar panel installations is they're set up to produce peak power at midday. My house has roof slopes that are East and West. If I were to install solar panels on each slope I would generate peak power at mid-morning and mid-afternoon. In the Summer I could be generating power up to sixteen hours a day.

In the days of the gross feed in tariffs, most of the juicy revenue paid for renewable energy delivered to the grid was for the slot 11am and 4pm. If the revenue was generous for the time BEFORE 11am and AFTER 4pm, then your thinking would be taken up for sure.

The result of the massive solar PV installation rates in Australia has seen the gross feed in tariffs almost completely disappear and with it any enlightened thinking as you suggested.

thats why they make these they track all day

Mine didn't come with the red arrows and so it gets very confused at night.

Speaking of tracking PV panels, have you ever seen tracking motors that were also powered by the Sun? Not electric ones, but thermo-mechanical trackers that each have two bulbs containing a low-boiling-point working fluid connected together through a tiny turbine that drives the tracking mechanism. There's a small partition between the bulbs so that, if the partition shadows one or the other bulb (both of which are painted black) the fluid boils in the sunlit one only, spinning the turbine and centering the partition (and therefore the panel) so that both bulbs are heated equally. In this way it tracks the Sun without any kind of electronics and is self-powered.

I saw mention of these a long time ago, long before the Internet and so I have no link to the piece. Have you heard of these?

You have to apply the arrows yourself.

LynDoor™Ind. SunTracker^© solar tracking panels come with two different sets of red arrows, one for Northern and one for Southern Hemisphere applications.

sure, it can be done several ways, including azimuth data put into software, but photo sensors do the trick

Yes, I'm familiar with these but I'm talking about thermo-mechanical trackers. Have ever heard of such?

http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/powersource/4399705/Then-and-Now--Solar-panels-track-the-sun

www.che.utexas.edu/.../topic_8/solar_energy_vliet.ppt

Broken link. see the "..." in between?

How did you copy that?

It wouldn't copy. I had to type it in. If you highlight and google it, it will come up as the first choice of websites where a file can be downloaded from. It is a power point file which you can then open with power point viewer. I found this by searching for "steam powered solar generators circa 1900". I had seen some pictures in an old book that was printed about then. One looked like a radiotelescope with a big thing in the middle. It took some fiddling around but I was able to view the power point images.

In my copy of 'The Romance of Modern Invention', by Archibald Williams published by Seeley & Co, London 1910, they had a pic of the 'SUN MOTOR' used on a Pasadena Ostrich farm in California. It worked a pump capable of delivering 1400 gallons per minute.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=VdXbVL-IGsGxyASW84DYDQ&url=http://www.che.utexas.edu/course/che359%26384/lecture_notes/topic_8/solar_energy_vliet.ppt&ved=0CBwQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNEDO2e_-WWYH5vAva11G7pDyvu-rA&sig2=cMl2WJ3YK6soVjrawNH1rg

Yes, the 131 mile x 131 mile area is a significant amount of land, I presume the landowners get to stay, or are "we" going to run them off their land?

At 7.5% efficiency, that is pretty thin soup, and runs the cost through the roof.

The combined use of wind and solar in that same area and a considerably higher efficiency rating (although intermittent) would produce far more power in a much smaller land area. Molten salt heat storage has potential, or thermal storage in hot gravel will also drive a heat engine that is based on near adiabatic compression and expansion. see this link: www.isentropic.uk

The hot gravel technique can be suitable for a number of MWh per system, and can be used in a modular way, appropriate with renewable energy density within a localized area.