Previous in Forum: To the Moon Today Versus Apollo   Next in Forum: 3D Printed Jet Engine and Fast Prototype
Close
Close
Close
13 comments
Rating: Comments: Nested
Member

Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6

Multilateration and Local GPS in Aviation

02/18/2015 3:06 AM

Hello! I'm looking for a person with experience in multilateration systems for advice and industrial expertise. A company in US, Locata, have developed so called Local GPS system and use multilateration method for positioning with accuracy of 1 centimeter. I have read somewhere that in time this accuracy could be improved with better technologies and growing needs of aviation industry.How could aviation somehow benefit from multilateration positioning with e.g. 1 mm accuracy?

Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 21017
Good Answers: 795
#1

Re: Multilateration and Local GPS in Aviation

02/18/2015 4:50 AM

Only by standing still, and then falling out of the sky. Just think about it. ...Oh, never mind.

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Reply
2
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Iowa, USA
Posts: 577
Good Answers: 50
#2

Re: Multilateration and Local GPS in Aviation

02/18/2015 9:41 AM

There is no value to aviation, for 1mm accuracy. A pilot can't fly to that precision, and it's not needed.

Aviation in North America uses WAAS (Wide Area Augmentation System) to enhance non precision GPS accuracy.

See WAAS

Europe/Asia uses its own SBAS (Satellite Based Augmentation System).

When the airport has a WAAS/LPV (Localizer Performance with Vertical guidance) approach, the precision exceeds that of landing using localizer and glide slope navigation support. And these have worked well for 50 years.

Yes USA GPS III will make improvements for civilian use. But that's requires new satellite installations.

I personally only worked on systems that used GPS sensor data (e.g. auto pilot, flight management system), but the company I retired from won the military contracts for GPS receivers and technology of it's design (Collins Radio division of Rockwell International, now Rockwell Collins Inc.). Contact RCI if you want to purchase products.

Just what benefits am I in the blind, needing 1mm accuracy?

__________________
ignator -
Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 581
Good Answers: 15
#9
In reply to #2

Re: Multilateration and Local GPS in Aviation

02/19/2015 11:10 AM

Possible applications occur to me by the dozen - well, half-dozen given that I have more immediate things to do. Use some imagination. And don't forget drones.

Quiddich (ok, other athletics / extreme sports), surveillance/exploration, aerobatics, surveying (h/t to the poster who mentioned it already) & measuring, remote sensing, precision-guided munitions, higher-resolution route finding.

__________________
Ignorance is no sin. Willful ignorance is unforgiveable.
Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11119
Good Answers: 918
#3

Re: Multilateration and Local GPS in Aviation

02/18/2015 12:28 PM

Could not imagine why such precision is required in aviation. Even Cat III precision approach doesn't need anything that precise.

Most airports use LAAS (GBAS), which is a local area augmentation service that takes over for GPS to provide precision approach guidance for aircraft. GBAS precision is sub-1 meter.

I know that Wide Area Multilateration (WAM) is now filtering its way into various airports, but I don't know that much about it. I have been out of the aviation GPS systems for almost 6 years now. I though that WAM was more of a mechanism to get better or more efficient traffic patterns to and from the airport.

For your search you might want to start contacting some universities and see if you can track down some professor or PhD doing research on the subject.

Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
New Zealand - Member - Kiwi Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 8777
Good Answers: 376
#4

Re: Multilateration and Local GPS in Aviation

02/18/2015 2:11 PM

The tech to actually achieve this particular level of GPS accuracy (if it is even possible using the mentioned technique) is outside my expertise, but from my experience I cannot think of any applications - aviation, military, exploration, tracking, etc where this increased accuracy would be of benefit over existing GPS accuracy.

Even with precision guided munitions (or directed energy) the devation, tolerance, uncertantity levels inherent in the guidance systems, construction and plain natural environment and physics involved are going to be larger to much larger than the potential 1mm tolerance offered by the GPS for targeting purposes.

What possible market and use do you think there is, and bare in mind that non-military uncontrolled consumer GPS is still limited in accuracy by governments, and the new technology is bound to be more expensive?

__________________
jack of all trades
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
2
Commentator

Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 62
Good Answers: 3
#8
In reply to #4

Re: Multilateration and Local GPS in Aviation

02/19/2015 9:18 AM

The market that readily comes to mind for me is in the surveying industry. For years a surveying team consisted of two people. One person used the instrument known as a total station and the other the rod with a prism on it. The person on the instrument had the "smart" end of the system and the other person was moving about on the site at the direction of the instrument person. About fifteen years ago robotic systems started being used that moved the smart end of the system out to the rod where the decisions were being implemented. The instrument end tracked the rod and homed in on it to provide angles and distances. You still, however, had to sight in using optical means by way of a back sight which established a reference angle. Then differential GPS started being used. A reference station was placed over a known point. This station would receive location data from the constellation of GPS satellites and compare this data with where it "knew" it was. It would then send a correction factor out to a remote unit that also had a GPS receiver on it and tell it it was not where the GPS satellites were saying but actually, say, 10.52 feet at 256 degrees away. This system was capable of centimeter level accuracy without having to "back sight" a robotic total station. This level of accuracy is needed, for example, in order to make sure that "sh** always flows downhill" when constructing sewer systems. If a system could be implemented that had millimeter level accuracy without having to use a differential GPS then even high rise buildings, for example, could be built without the need for optical instruments.

Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
New Zealand - Member - Kiwi Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 8777
Good Answers: 376
#10
In reply to #8

Re: Multilateration and Local GPS in Aviation

02/19/2015 1:33 PM

For precision surveying and construction nothing really beats good old ground optics and lasers for cheap and repeatable accuracy.

I am not sure the industry would take to relying on GPS over local optics, but if affordable precision and repeatable GPS is possible then there could potentially be a market here. Industry standards would have to be changed however and like the automotive industry this could kill any new GPS use in the industry.

__________________
jack of all trades
Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 62
Good Answers: 3
#11
In reply to #10

Re: Multilateration and Local GPS in Aviation

02/19/2015 3:42 PM

All of the earthwork for the fifth runway at Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport in Atlanta was staked using centimeter-level accurate differential GPS. One company had the contract to do all of the fill work and another company to do all of the cut work. Centimeter accuracy is .03 feet, which is more than accurate enough for earth work. If millimeter level accuracy could be obtained with GPS that would be less than 1/16" which is less than the 1/8" accepted accuracy for building layouts. There are many applications where that level of accuracy in the construction industry would be more than adequate.

As for the industry accepting GPS, take a look around and see how many surveying and construction companies are relying on centimeter level accurate differential GPS at the current time. If it can be shown that repeatable measurements in the millimeter range were obtainable then those same companies would put their optics and lasers in the same closet as there chains and tape measures that they used to use.

As a side note, when they were doing the planing for that runway, a portion of I-285 around Atlanta had to be surveyed because the runway actually goes over the interstate. The company that had the contract to do the location of I-285 was facing astronomical fines if they were going to shut down the highway to survey it. They bought what is called a reflectorless total station to do the job. When you see someone surveying they usually have a reflector on a pole that is used to reflect a laser (like "jack of all trades" was referring to) back to the total station to get a distance measurement by using modulated wavelengths and interference patterns, not with time delay as most people, even within the industry, think. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_station#Distance_measurement) A reflectorless total station can measure distances to any object that is relatively light in color without the use of a reflector. The cost of the instrument was less than the cost of the fine and the job took less time to complete than it would have with a reflector so they basically got a reflectorless total station for free. Not long after that they came to realize that a differential GPS would be acceptably accurate for their earth work on the fill side of the project.

Basically what I am saying is that the industry will adapt to new technology if it is proven to them that they can get acceptable accuracy at a reasonable return on their investment.

Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42355
Good Answers: 1693
#5

Re: Multilateration and Local GPS in Aviation

02/18/2015 4:49 PM

It can't.

Reply
2
Guru
Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - Member United States - Member - Army Vet in the aviation industry

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bridgewater, Va.
Posts: 2175
Good Answers: 119
#6

Re: Multilateration and Local GPS in Aviation

02/18/2015 10:36 PM

One possible benefit I can think of is autonomous airborne vertical delivery systems, particularly for building or tower assembly purposes.

Drones have already been used to demonstrate prototypical assembly systems at lower precisions. I think though, to be practical, it'll be quite a while before such a precision system is affordable for general use. Also, assembly systems that do not require human intervention such as welding or fastening still need advancement to complement the delivery system.

Hooker

Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Member

Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6
#12
In reply to #6

Re: Multilateration and Local GPS in Aviation

02/23/2015 2:47 AM

Which autonomous airborne vertical delivery systems are used for building? Could you drop a link, because I could only find is autonomous airborne for military which uses parachute..

Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - Member United States - Member - Army Vet in the aviation industry

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bridgewater, Va.
Posts: 2175
Good Answers: 119
#13
In reply to #12

Re: Multilateration and Local GPS in Aviation

02/23/2015 8:03 AM

Sorry if my note implied such systems are being currently used for autonomous building. There may be, but I'm not aware of any.

There is a lot of development going on, though, such as with control programs displayed in this LINK. See the videos down the page.

To me, it's just a matter of time. I was involved in a project that demonstrated autonomous take-off, flight and landing of a CH-47 Chinook helicopter. This was pre-GPS and involved ground based laser tracking of the aircraft returning to within a meter of its takeoff point.

And here's an ARTICLE about a Marine project for drone delivery. It doesn't say if it's autonomous yet but I'm sure that's only a matter of time.

And any of these delivery systems could be pilot programs for assembly systems, IMO.

Hooker

Reply
Member

Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6
#7

Re: Multilateration and Local GPS in Aviation

02/19/2015 6:02 AM

As multilateration uses Time Difference of Arrival (TDOA) method, i was thinking that using very precise timing device could give such accuracy. Similar technique is used in Satellite Laser Ranging. But ok, it really does seem that extreme precision is not necessary in aviation.

Thanks for sharing your opinion!

Reply
Reply to Forum Thread 13 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Hero (1); Hooker (2); ignator (1); jack of all trades (2); lyn (1); Lynn.Wallace (1); MarcisJ (2); roeblinggrid (2); Tornado (1)

Previous in Forum: To the Moon Today Versus Apollo   Next in Forum: 3D Printed Jet Engine and Fast Prototype

Advertisement