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4017 & 555 Police LED Lights Project (noob question)

02/19/2015 8:47 AM

hello, i am assigned to create a physical project starting from the schematics on the left side. my teacher told me that the schematic is incomplete, so the first step is to corect it and then use pads and then send the gerber files to a company to create it. i started reserching it and every schematics i found on the internet about this project had a major diffrence...in my schematics the outputs of the IC 4017 is conecte to 6 resistors...on a number of other similar schematics they are connected to 6 diodes...this is my first project and it is the first time i have to use my electronics knowledge to do something from a tp z and aparently i don`t have much of it :(...can some one please talk to me about the diffrences on those schematics...can any one shed some light for me on this subject? i will be forever gratefull :) thank you in advance :) (sorry for my bad english, i hope you understand what i am talking about ^.^)

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#1

Re: 4017 & 555 Police LED Lights Project (noob question)

02/19/2015 9:31 AM

The difference is the use of two different old logic design technologies of diode transistor logic (DTL) and resistor transistor logic (RTL). I have a mild preference for DTL because the current gain of the transistor and the matching of the diodes is much less critical with a DTL circuit. Both of these gate technologies are still used today but more often as an after thought in a design. [Circuit A and circuit B work perfectly but just one more gate (AND, NAND, NOR, OR) is needed to combine these two signals.] It is therefore a good idea for you to understand how each of these configurations work.

I cannot see enough detail to say what your teacher states is missing. Since your circuit uses RTL, it might be related to my comment.

Remember this is a teaching project. Understanding why your circuit does or doesn't blinks is far more important than making it blink.

Good Luck

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#2

Re: 4017 & 555 Police LED Lights Project (noob question)

02/19/2015 10:03 AM

Quote 1000110 "so the first step is to corect it and then use pads and then send the gerber files to a company to create it"

Why would you not bread board the proto type first and verify it works as expected. Committing this to a PWB before testing it would be foolish.

Two of the diodes are not connected in your schematic. Also your inserted graphics are very blurred, when copied into a viewer. They are not clear enough viewed as is, in my browser.

I don't see any decoupling capacitors to keep the LED switching current noise from the IC components (as well keeping their noise from the power input). Also add large bulk capacitors for the LEDs to draw current from.

I see where your copying your original schematic from:

4017 decade counter

Or so your description appears in this relative to the 6 resistors vs your diodes, which will "OR" the outputs from the 4017.

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#4
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Re: 4017 & 555 Police LED Lights Project (noob question)

02/19/2015 10:51 AM

I'd skip the breadboard and go directly herehttp://www.dcaclab.com/

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#5
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Re: 4017 & 555 Police LED Lights Project (noob question)

02/19/2015 11:51 AM

here is a better photo of the schematic

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#3

Re: 4017 & 555 Police LED Lights Project (noob question)

02/19/2015 10:04 AM

If resistors are used instead of diodes, your LED driver section will be fed, when trying to turn on, with the result of one resistor pulling up to about 12V (assuming a 12V supply), and two resistors pulling down to about 0V. You need to do the sums (and also calculate what resistor values are appropriate based on the IOH and IOL of the 4017 outputs (from the data sheet)). You may also need to change the values of one or both of the resistors connected to the drive transistor bases.

The sums are much simpler with diodes.

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#6
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Re: 4017 & 555 Police LED Lights Project (noob question)

02/19/2015 5:33 PM

Yeah, the diodes are just a "poor man's" OR gate.

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#7
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Re: 4017 & 555 Police LED Lights Project (noob question)

02/19/2015 8:01 PM

Resistors are tricky buggers tho'. If you juggle all the values right, they can be an AND gate (need all high to get an output to turn on) or an OR gate (any of 'em high). With diodes at about $6/100 (or less) - the cost doesn't really come into it.

Back in the day, we used to use arrays of discrete diodes for encoding/dedoding data (ASCII etc) over parallel busses. Same thing happens inside a FPGA or whatever these days.

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#9
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Re: 4017 & 555 Police LED Lights Project (noob question)

02/20/2015 6:16 AM

I made a D/A converter once (many years ago) using discrete resistors of doubling values (before I discovered R 2R ladder networks). It wasn't very good, but I had more time than money.

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#8

Re: 4017 & 555 Police LED Lights Project (noob question)

02/20/2015 1:18 AM

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#10

Re: 4017 & 555 Police LED Lights Project (noob question)

02/20/2015 7:10 AM

<cancelled>

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#11

Re: 4017 & 555 Police LED Lights Project (noob question)

02/20/2015 7:27 AM

The "incomplete" bit of your circuit - in case you haven't spotted it yet - is the connection (via diodes) of the drive transistor bases to the clock signal, which makes the ON LEDs pulsate at the clock frequency. Your circuit will just turn them on steadily.

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#12

Re: 4017 & 555 Police LED Lights Project (noob question)

02/20/2015 8:31 AM

nice. thank you all for the feedback it really helped. i think i figured it out. now i`m thinking to be a little arogant and add a speaker with the sirens of a police car, any toughts on that? i presume i need to make some major changes to the project but it`ll be worth it cuz i`ll stand out from the crowd .

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#13
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Re: 4017 & 555 Police LED Lights Project (noob question)

02/20/2015 9:02 AM

Well have a stab at it then, and maybe these guys will help you. If you get too greedy you'll just get the big finger.

cnc jim

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#14
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Re: 4017 & 555 Police LED Lights Project (noob question)

02/20/2015 9:10 AM

Finger? Not from me. I might get a good laugh, giggle, shake my head in disbelief or a myriad of other actions including some leading questions to help the learning process for this polite member. I'm much more likely to get rude with those who act rude for no apparent reason.

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#15
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Re: 4017 & 555 Police LED Lights Project (noob question)

02/20/2015 9:46 AM

Well, the member has asked for your thoughts on him adding a light. What are your thoughts?

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#16
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Re: 4017 & 555 Police LED Lights Project (noob question)

02/20/2015 9:49 AM

shake head in disbelief becasue i`m new to electronics and i have no idea what i`m geting into with this project?:D
and about the finger , no one is foreced to talk to me about this project so i see no reason why some one should be pissed off about this (presuming you get rude when you are pissed off that is ^^ )

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#18
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Re: 4017 & 555 Police LED Lights Project (noob question)

02/20/2015 10:02 AM

I have seen numerous posts where the OP should really have put some effort in themselves rather than just asking the forum, and usually they will get 3 or 4 post telling them so, (ie the finger), and no help. When you say 'I'm thinking of adding a light to look good, what are your thoughts?' it looks like that is what you are doing.

If you say 'I am thinking of adding a light to look good, here is the diagram I have come up with, are there any mistakes?' then you have put in some effort, and you are more likely to get some help.

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#20
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Re: 4017 & 555 Police LED Lights Project (noob question)

02/20/2015 10:09 AM

i didn`t say i wanna put in a light to look good..i wanted to add a speaker that will sound like the sirens of a police car, since my project is about police lights..i will reserch and some diagrams, simulte them, try to conect to my project see if it works and all that. i get where you`re coming from. you may be feeling like i want you to do the project for me, that is not the case tough ^^

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#19
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Re: 4017 & 555 Police LED Lights Project (noob question)

02/20/2015 10:07 AM

I recall you suggesting the use of firearms. ;)

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#17

Re: 4017 & 555 Police LED Lights Project (noob question)

02/20/2015 10:00 AM

so this seems an easy enough schematics...i just need to try and interpret it. if i do this more i`ll get good at it lol this is fun

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#21
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Re: 4017 & 555 Police LED Lights Project (noob question)

02/20/2015 10:28 AM

An audio power amplifier is a laudable but out of scope addition to this project. The circuit you've drawn is more likely to damage your speak than make a clear, understandable sound. I know many PA speakers are not very clear in the first place. Your amplifier will provide a DC voltage to your speaker. This DC voltage will damage most speakers. If you don't offset the output signal to run in the middle of your supply voltage of +12 V there will be significant distortion as half of the waveform disappears.

Wait a minute, your amplifier has either a 100 ohm or 100K ohm output impedance. In either case your output waveform into an 8 ohm speaker will be so attenuated you will neither damage the speaker nor drive it hard enough to make things at all audible. That is unless your speaker is extremely efficient for the most amount of audio power you deliver to this 8 ohm speaker is about 1.5 milliwatts of power.

Get the lights to flash first.

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#22
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Re: 4017 & 555 Police LED Lights Project (noob question)

02/20/2015 10:34 AM

ieeei :D no big finger there ^^, yeah i`ll do that, thank you :D

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#24
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Re: 4017 & 555 Police LED Lights Project (noob question)

03/19/2015 5:13 AM

Replace your speaker with a Phiso sounder and fix resistor values and drive phiso with your 4017 output through different resistors to get the wobble.

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#23

Re: 4017 & 555 Police LED Lights Project (noob question)

02/20/2015 5:13 PM

ON THE DIAGRAM THE MIDDLE DIODES INSIDE YOUR CIRCLE IS NOT CONNECTED TO THE 4017 OUTPUTS. I enlarged the circuit lay out with your two circles to see their connection but your circles cover the important part. The 4017 out puts are make before break, means the next pulse will go high while the previous is still high, that is why you need to isolate the outputs from each other with the diodes.

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