Are H1N1 Flu Shots Safe?

Thousands have died of H1N1???? I have not seen any data to support that statement. In Canada, we haven't even made it into the hundreds. In fact there was an interesting news article about the fact that the regular influenzas were killing about the same number of people as the H1N1.

As for the US, I know there are more deaths, but with a population of over 320 million, "thousands" may sound dramatic but is is not necessarily statistically significant.

If you mean world wide, then put it into that perspective as well.

On the subject of vaccine and vaccinations, I do believe in them, but we cannot force the shots on to those who do not want them. There has always been a percentage of the population that distrusts vaccinations and the number grows as we remove the threat of serious diseases from the average person's life time.

Those who have never known the heartbreak of polio or seen what whooping cough, mumps and measles can do to a kid have the luxury of second guessing science.

Those of us who have lived through such debilitating issues, seen our friends lives altered or attended their funerals will not take such chances with our children or our grand children.

Once I have had my shots, I'm not overly concerned if someone else does not get theirs. They have to live with the consequences. As for an epidemic, if there were to be one it would most likely be self limiting

I think people are nuts. A couple of hundred people have died in Canada but so far, if I am correct, 8 million have been vaccinated.

Thats about a quarter of the population.

And the most likely to die got first dibs at the vaccination (for the most part).

(Some hockey players did jump the queue).

Only now are they vaccinating healthy people.

Normal seasonal flu does kill people but the average age of death from seasonal flu in Canada is around 80. With the new flu average age of death is around 50. Thats a big difference. At 80, I expect to be dead or nearly dead. 50 is only a few years away.

If they had not vaccinated so many people and so many who were most likely to get the thing, I think it would be a lot different.

In Canada we have not yet properly entered flu season and this flu still managed to fill a lot of the acute hospital beds. My neighbour was one of them. mid 40's, we thought healthy and he was on a ventilator for at least 2 weeks. His wife was not even allowed to hold his hand. They are now cautiously optimistic about him.

One mistake they made was they did not vaccinate the frontline hospital staff first. They were seriously understaffed in the hospitals in BC at the height of it because many were home in bed sick. They say we are over the peak now. We shall see. My sister lives in New Zealand and she says that it didn't have time to get really strong there before their summer came. (Remember it only started in March or so), and they are expecting a second bigger wave of it next winter. (And winter in the southern hemisphere is not quite the same as winter in Canada USA or most of europe).

I am very thankful that the Canadian health service acted so quickly. i was in hospital in October for 5 days and was on the priority list. I got my shot last monday and I probably could have got it quite a bit sooner.

Brian

The worry is that the H1N1 virus as is, develops into a more lethal strain. The main problem with the H1N1 is that it is very contagious and so, if it were to become alot more deadly, that it would end up killing alot of people. Also it seems to attack young people more than your average flu which is unusual.

With a small number of people who have H1N1 then the chances for the deadly mutation are less. With a large number of people the chances are greater. Hence why the vaccination programme is useful.

Whether the governments have rushed out a vaccine is another debate.

Also it seems to attack young people more than your average flu which is unusual.

Do you think that young people are getting less rest and or are more stressed and have less than adequate nutrition is a contributing factor?

The theory is we are overly hygienic nowadays, this has resulted in lazy and or poorly trained immune systems more so in younger generations. Also probably to much nutrition eating junk food etc.

Baby's immune systems need kick starting during there critical formative years the more bugs they are exposed to will tend to do this, It is a great tragedy that some parents are not having there children immunised against the usual problems that inflict children the rise of Whooping cough in Australian children is due to this attitude.

I think this fear goes back to the 1970's when they vaccinated a large percentage of the population based on a flu epidemic at a (New Jersey, possibly Fort Dix) military installation. The flu epidemic never spread but a large number of people got sick from the vaccine. Of course their are fearmongers of all sorts that use any excuse to drum up support for their cause usually because it benefits them in some way.

I got my 3 yr old son vaccinated last Saturday.

First, let me state that I am old enough to remember polio etc., and personally experienced measles, chicken pox, and a couple of other childhood diseases. Having seen the almost complete elimination of those diseases through vaccination, I am a firm believer in the general concept of vaccination.

On the other hand, in the last six years, I got flu shots twice. Those two years, I got the flu. In the four years that I got no flu shots, I got extremely mild or no flu at all. I have virtually no knowledge of the methods used to create, preserve, transport, store, and distribute the current vaccines, but I suspect that somewhere in there some shortcuts have been taken to get the product to market quickly.

I tend to agree with those who believe that today's children are overly protected from natural immunization (eg. dirt).

I elect to drive in spite of the high probability of being killed in an accident, and for now I elect to avoid the flu shots in spite of the (significantly lower) probability of dying from the flu. If my time comes, so be it!

4000 cases in the population of the USA is NOT an epidemic, in my way of thinking.

Well, there has been just under 2000 confirmed deaths in the USA now. (And there is a lag in the reporting of up to a week) so maybe you need to check your 4000 cases for sell by date)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_flu_pandemic_by_country gets updated pretty well.

Probably, just like Canada, they are not testing mild cases anymore because almost every flu case here is swine flu. So they just test random samples and do an estimate. (Why break the bank doing flu tests?)

Canada has a stupid reporting system. Canada updates severe cases and deaths on friday, BC updates on tuesday. And I think all the other provinces go their own way too. (A canadian province is almost equivalent to a us state). So even if there are half a dozen deaths in British Columbia before the canada reporting date, they use the official BC figures from tuesday. Inept.

BC has had 30 deaths confirmed from H1n1, 5 in the last week with 144 new severe cases. The 5 and 144 will be added to the canada figures on friday.

Severe is where you have to be admitted to hospital. Deaths are only part of it.

Come to think of it, I believe you're right, the 4k figure was worldwide... That makes it even less of an epidemic!

Perhaps you were right back in May. I am really surprised at your response. Very irrisponsible.

I expected better

Sorry you feel that way, but I have the definite impression that H1N1 has been blown way out of proportion, compared to lots of other dangers we face. I can't help but wondering about the money involved. Drug companies...?

Ok, my neighbour (mid 40,s seemingly healthy) was in hospital for 3 weeks with H1N1

I bet they pumped a lot of drugs into him to prevent multible organ failure.

I bet they put thousands of dollars worth of drugs into him.

And he was only one of about 200 people around the end of october in severe distress in hospital at the end of october in bc (pop 4 million)

So, perhaps the drug companys should reconcider?

and make the money on other drugs rather than the vaccine?

Has anyone done the math? Average stay in hospital is about 4 days for severe cases.

about 200 severe cases for every 7? deaths.

Antibiotics for pneumonia would be a given +

at least a day of oxygen and multible blood tests.

Those STUPID drug companys got the vaccine out too early and lost money! in the "save the dieing" sectors of their manefacturing plants.

From http://news.nurse.com/article/20091118/NATIONAL02/91105007/-1/frontpage

"Nov. 16The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has revised its estimates on deaths from H1N1 influenza from 1,200 to about 4,000, which includes mortality from related pneumonia and bacterial infections.A revision of H1N1 rates based on more accurate data than was previously available shows the flu pandemic has infected an estimated 22 million Americans and put 98,000 in the hospital, the CDC says.Children account for 8 million of the infected, 36,000 of those hospitalized and 540 deaths, the CDC reports.

The FDA has approved use of the Swiss drug giant Roche's RealTime H1N1 diagnostic test for the 2009 H1N1 influenza, but only for the duration of the current public health emergency."

So 1 in 225(0.44%) is a severe case requiring hospitalization.

And 1 in 5,500(0.018%) cases results in death.

No vaccine for me, thank you very much.

Thank you.

If one in 225 is a severe case requiring hospitalization, and the average stay in hospital is 4 days, would it be cheaper to vaccinate the 225 people or pay for 4 days of hospital for 1 of them?

(My neighbour was on a ventalator but only a few get that bad).

I do not know how much 225 shots of vaccine costs or what 4 days of hospital costs.

Any idea?

I guess we need not worry about mild cases where people just spend a week in bed at home.

That is just a burden on the individual. So, who cares!?

In Canada, it is probably easier to make the decision "politically speaking" because we all pay by the month in a national medical service plan and the politicians use their spreadsheet programs to keep costs down. (Drugs are for the most part not included in the plan but hospital stays (including whatever they put in your body in the hospital) are covered)

Our vaccination program had children, athmatics, and people with blood disorders first and then the older folk and general public (this was clearly to keep down the death and hospitalization numbers)

Perhaps in the more free enterprise US, the drug companys and hospitals can optimize profits if fewer people are vaccinated?

Just a thought.

Brian

from http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20091112/edm_vaccine_costs_091112/20091112/?hub=BritishColumbiaHome

"It appears that the plan to have every Canada vaccinated against H1N1 flu is not coming cheap. New estimates show that the vaccination program could cost more than $2 billion."

But, did you do the math? You only give half the story

Which is cheaper? Vaccinating or letting extra tens of thousands spend half a week in hospital?

That must have a cost too? It is not fair to pretend that 4 days per serious case in hospital is free.

It is at least $1200 per day. Well in bc a couple of weeks ago there was something like 162 H1N1 in serious condition in hospital. So that is at least 162 by 4 by 1200 for that week, At least $777,600 for one week in one little (4 million) province in canada because we did not vaccinate in time.

So it might be $6.4 million per week canada wide hospital stays (even with vaccination of the most in danger). Imagine how much it would cost if we had no vaccination at all. Athsma sufferers would be dieing like flys.

I took the lowest estimate of hospital costs that I found.

Finish the math!

Make it $10 million a week, to be safe. how long does the flu season last? Even a full year at that rate is $520 million (one quarter of the vaccination cost given above)

You did not finish it. To do it correctly, you got to figure that in the ABSENCE of vaccination, the flu spreads quicker, sickens and kills many more people. Remember? About 1/4 of canadians have been vaccinated. (The most vunerable third)

I doubt very much that all the rest are going to bother. Especially if they already had the flu.

And you might as well assume more mutation of pneumonia bugs because every time someone lays on their back dieing with antibiotics pumped in to them, the bugs are mutating to get resistant to pneumonia.

The figures for the cost of the vaccination program are pure speculation at this stage.

I do not know where people are getting their figures. The vaccine costs what? $14 per shot? All the rest is graft and that happens in every system and is an internal cost. In the US, it gets called profit.

Many many many have had this flu and have not had serious complication; it is these whom will have an immunity greater than those whom got the vaccine. This you haven't thought through either...

... and these people will have gotten resistance to whatever variant of the flu is currently circulating, rather than to the one that was circulating when and where the vaccine was originated (which may or may not be the same).

Guest, you are presuming that a tiny amount of mercury is causing autism. Why not presume that the effects of some of the thousands of new chemicals that are invented every year is causing it?

Why focus on a couple of vaccinations as the cause of this? There are many thousands of other potential causes. You buy milk in plastic bottles? You buy olive oil in plastic? It has been known for a long time that oils leach substances from the plastic containers. It should be very easy to conduct studies in areas where there was huge mercury poisioning, fishing villages in Japan, etc. Did they get a similar jump in autism?

Everyone sees smoking guns everywhere. Tests have probably been done and the bullet probably comes from one of the smoking guns.

Probably not the one that your hunch tells you it came from.

actually you can blame autism on genetics and since autism has been happening around the world for a long time that little bit of reasoning falls over immediately. you are just parroting a theory which has been thoroughly debunked and adding a bunch of faulty reasoning which has clearly convinced you. I suggest widening your reading base, instead of circling the conspiracy and anti-vax sites which just reinforce each others' and your beliefs try reading something scientific and fact-based (unless of course you believe that every single scientist is involved in a conspiracy?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Biased or not, I am not comfortable with the idea of injecting a neuro-toxin directly into my blood stream.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal

to recommend that thiomersal be removed from routine infant vaccines in the U.S., which was largely complete by summer 2001

It doesn't happen any more, a point which is overlooked by people who copy and paste these entries to bulletin boards all over the net. If there is a conspiracy they are part of a conspiracy of disinformation.

My son has been diagnosed as having autistic spectrum disorder and in my research I see this stuff all the time, of course when I first heard about this I was worried then I investigated with an open mind and reached my own conclusions. I have discussed the topic with such people as guest but am faced with a belief of such religious intensity that they deny any evidence or proof. When posting to such a rational reader base as engineers, I am surprised that this stuff gets in and is accepted without question.

Not sure if your whole post made it... "to recommend that thiomersal be removed from routine infant vaccines in the U.S., which was largely complete by summer 2001"

I am aware that Thimerasol was removed from child vaccines some time ago, but it is still widely used in vaccines for the general public. And, as a known toxin, I am not comfortable with injecting it into my blood stream.

Could be folks have lost confidence in those with oversight of the situation regardless due the condition never should have transpired in the first place.

I'm waiting for the fallout concerning authenticity of peer review though the reporting was erroneous.

Imagine that you were awake in chemistry/biology...

Not so long ago the the environmental tolerance for that neuro-toxin was zip

How did they have a vaccine ready before the "outbreak". A few hundred people have died from the H1N1 flu. 30,000 people die every year from the regular flu. That doesn't make sense. There's no pandemic. Just a lot of hype for some reason.

The CDC reported a measels outbreak in a 100% documented vaccinated population. Studies show that children who recieved vaccinations were 14 times more likely to become learning disabled and develope asthma. There is virtually no asthma in unvaccinated children. Unvaccinated people are healthier, have higher disease resistance, and recover more rapidly from illness. There have never been any saftey studies done on vaccines that would meet the appropriate criteria. Donald Meserlian P.E. VOSI Chairman, & ASTM Member

"And it was clearly demonstrated that the only people who got smallpox twice were the vaccinated, and that there are far more cases of smallpox among the vaccinated than the unvaccinated, and these statistics are availabe." Dr. Archie Kalokerinos, M.D. PhD

"Polio has not been eradicated by vaccination, it is lurking behind a redefinition and new diagnostic names like viral or aseptic meningitis...According to one of the 1997 issues of the MMWR there are some 30,000 to 50,000 cases of viral meningitis in the United States alone. That's where all those 30,000 - 50,000 cases of polio disappeared after the introduction of mass vaccination" Dr. Vera Schiebner

Historical trends indicate vaccines have had little positive effect, historical trends show that deaths caused by childhood illnesses had already declined as much as 98% before vaccine programs were ever initiated. Evidence indicates that an improved standard of living, better nutrition, and increased sanitation, caused this drop in desiase, not vaccines.

There are many vaccine related deaths every year. Look into it.

amos

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=3131

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=3029

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=2962

And over a hundred other articles on this web site.

http://whatstheharm.net/autismdenial.html

http://whatstheharm.net/vaccinedenial.html

I read CR4 to get expert engineering information and advice. I go to sites like this

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/ for medical information.

The precautionary principle is based on good science. Prof. Peter Saunders and Dr. Mae-Wan Ho look at a few of the many examples where scientific evidence has made a compelling case for the application of the precautionary principle.

Introduction

Researchers in Naperville, Ill., have revealed findings that may explain the cause of autism. Biochemist, William J. Walsh, Ph.D. and Physician, Anjum Usman, M.D. presented their findings this fall concerning autistic patients' abilities to metabolize metals at the 10th Annual HRI-Pfeiffer Symposium. The Health Research Institute (HRI) has examined blood, urine, and hair chemistries for 503 patients in the autism spectrum. The study population was composed of patients diagnosed with (a) classical autism, (b) Asperger's Syndrome, or (c) pervasive developmental disorder with autistic tendencies. Metal-metabolism disorders of unusually high incidence and severity were found in all three groups.

Not so odd that these whom have autism also display conditions which define an attributable cause. What has brought this condition forward has not been explained and with the scientific communities unethical behavior of late will we ever understand?

Do no harm representations are anal, okay so not all stupid people are in prison.

Help me understand the logic of placing a knowm immunosuppresent accumulative heavy metal pioson as preservative in any substance intended for injection into the human body regardless of the amount?

Noted below are other diseases which have also increased in frequency during the time frame of Mercury useage; coincidence?

Symptoms in children
Mercury poisoning in Children is a cause of many symptoms of developmental disorders including Autism, Asperger's, PDD-NOS, ADD.
Common neurological symptoms that occur in children are: decreased eye contact, flat affect, repeating certain actions over and over again, not responding to their name, not looking at an object that is being pointed at by another, poor concentration or attention, sensitivity to sensory stimulation. Common language or speech symptoms of mercury poisoning: loss of speech, delayed speech decreased understanding and articulating words, remembering certain words. Also common are social problems such as withdrawal, being irritated, aggressive behavior, night terrors and other sleep problems, mood swings. In addition other symptoms include auto-immune disorders such as multiple sclerosis, juvenile diabetes, asthma, chromic ear infections, and decreased immunity.
Of course, it must be recognized that mercury is not the cause for all of the disorders in this paper. It can be said that mercury is the original trigger and can set off all of these disorders and disorders. Therefore, if these symptoms are present then it is logical to check for the presence of mercury poisoning.

Who is "mindfully.org"? I only had time for a quick glance but could not find one name (other than Paul Goettlich, who is no longer with them), no credentials and no references to verify. I will check back later when I have more time.