Video: How Leaping Fish Species Left the Water -- For Good

...does this proof evolution? I do not think so!

Of course not, nor was it intended to do so. By the same token, it doesn't "proof" Intelligent Design / Flying Spaghetti Monster / something falling someplace.

CR4 isn't the forumn for debate over faith vs. science. Let's just leave it at that, shall we?

I just find it very interesting, mostly because I know so little about it. I do not want to make it a Faith vs science debate but would just like some more info, that is all.

Can you think of anything that would convince you that natural processes cause all the variation we see?

No, I didn't think so. Basically you want to believe in the supernatural.

I do not believe in the supernatural but the natural. To believe in evolution means that I need to believe that my grandfather was an ape and my great...greatgrandfather was a rock...or do I just miss something?

I won't start a flame war, or explain what evolution means, etc.

I just want to point that along with the Creationism theory, one must device another theory, the "Destructionism", to explain why some species got extinct (like e.g. the kiwi birds).

Moreover, one must think that there must be a continuous process of creation to counterbalance the loss caused by the extinction of certain species, otherwise the world will get depleted of all life sooner or later. (Unless this is another intelligent plan, in which case I don't know what "intelligent" really means.)

All these lead to the conclusion that an Intelligent Mind, didn't just create a world, rested the seventh day and then sat back and watched, as some scriptures say, but it is a continuous process. So the scriptures are wrong, at least in this point. Evolution is there and is a continuous process, whether the strings are pulled by an Intelligent Being or by mere natural processes. Denying this, is like denying that the earth is round.

To go one step further, one can see that there is not only emergence and extinction of species, but also adaptation of them according to the environment. One can easily see examples of species evolving during a human lifetime, like e.g. the viruses.

One can also see that during the time humans have civilization many species were "created" (or better: evolved from other ancestor species) by the human intervention, like:

• the flyless and everyday-laying-eggs-machines i.e. the chicken (which of course couldn't have existed before humans adapted their ancestors and bred them, choosing the fattest and more productive and supplying protection against natural enemies to recompense).
• slooooow and stupid, but amazingly productive cows
• seedless oranges
• the kiwi fruit
  
• Fancy looking pedigree dogs

The list can go on for ever.

Lately humans have also created breeds in the lab, my meddling with the genes themselves.

The question is: if Man, even during the early phases of his civilization, can change the shape of certain species, then is it really difficult to expect that this can happen by natural processes, even at a slower pace?

Just food for thought.

Flour, sugar, baking powder, salt and eggs can be manipulated by man in a kitchen to make a cookie. No matter how much time you give these ingredients in nature, they will never form a cookie by themselves.

I do not think humans have the "power" to create live. We can only manipulate what there is already. By nature, we are destructive. If we pour acid over a dog and it shows signs of burn marks, does this now proof that we have a dog that is resistant to alkaline?

Sorry but my low IQ does not understand everything and would like it if you can put some light on this subject so that I can grasp it a bit better.

The basic problem is you can't comprehend the timescale involved if evolution, or even many geological processes.
You comment about your grandfather proves that.

The classic anti evolution argument is to cite the human eye, yet there is every stage in eye development in one creature or another, ranging from simple light sensitive skin cells, light sensitive pits in the skin, pits with membranes etc.
If you want to check your comprehension of time scales ask yourself how long is a million years? Then to get a feel for it ask yourself how long is a million seconds..go on have a guess? Then do the arithmetic and work it out. Then work out how many generations in a million years.

People get hung up on natural selection as soon as humans are involved...look at the multitude of breeds of dog.
Or if you are still hung up by anything living look at a beach.
It evolves and shifts, only the particles which are heavy enough or shaped so that the won't move or float away get deposited, it doesn't require any intervention or design. All of a sudden you have a broad expanse of lovely even white sand...all the particles are very similar! Wow what a miracle, how on earth could so many nearly identical particles have congregated, same size shape colour, maybe they are alive? Intelligent? Someone put them there, but there are unimaginable numbers...go on try and count them...ah I know..a wizzard did it.

This post is meant to be informative and helpfull. I don't intend to get drawn in further, it's just the trite 'Grandfather' comment was beyond sufferance.

Brevquot error...process terminated
Del

I am not for or against evolution, I do not know enough about it. Even thou the post was very interesting and informative, I still have some questions. Almost all your posts are too and on CR4 I do enjoy the kitty comments.

It seems that my questions upset you and they were not made to upset any one, specialy you. I ask, purely to because I am interested in subjects like these and require more info so that one day, I can make up my own mind, like you have already done.

Or maybe your milk got sour and I should rather ask the wizzard.

No prob. It's always difficult to judge someone's tone from the written word.
I just jumped onto the grandfather comment as it ...well I've alread explained all that stuff.
Prrrr prrrr.
I'm probably just grumpy in anticipation of a poor England world cup performance.
Del...<exit stage left mumbling about overpaid prima donas>

BTW did you calculate how long a million seconds is?
A shocking fact for those who have no concept of the size of a million... our life span doesn't even ammount to a million hours... although it sometimes feels like it when watching England play football.

Flour, sugar, baking powder, salt and eggs can be manipulated by man in a kitchen to make a cookie. No matter how much time you give these ingredients in nature, they will never form a cookie by themselves.

Of course nobody believes that given enough time you can can get anything out of whatever. Evolution has nothing to do with it. Generally creating order out of chaos is not an automatic or at all easy process. (Although some very simple processes can indeed produce incredible complexity.) But there are certain mechanisms that can make a living being better adapt to its environment. And this is luck!

OK this sounds like an aphorism. Evolution is in fact based on fact that the genes can randomly mutate in all living organisms on earth. Most mutations are malevolent and cause a being to perish, but some give an advantage over the other members of the species, therefore a higher probability to survive. This means that this living organism will leave descendants carrying its genes at a higher probability than the others. In that way the "good" genes propagate and sooner or later they will conquer the "bad" ones. Here, good and bad is relative to the environment, i.e. the given climatic conditions, the existence of this or that natural enemy, etc.

For example, imagine all inhabitants in a town decide to paint their houses yellow. It is possible that after a few decades to see that the butterflies living in this town get yellow wings. Miracle? No, it's just that due to gene mutations, you will find butterflies belonging to the same species that have different shades of color, slightly different spots and lines and other little details. It is possible that some will have a more yellowish taint than the others, just out of luck. These ones will consequently hide better from their predators on the yellow walls of the houses, so more of them will eventually survive, than their kin that are, say, more blueish. Their offspring will most probably have more yellowish wings too. Natural selection will cause butterflies to get yellower and yellower as time passes. This is the "good" color to have and it will be selected to survive. (Of course, this color may become a "bad" color if one day the inhabitants of the town decide to paint their houses pink.)

Of course, one living being doesn't live alone: At the same time, the predators of those butterflies, say birds, that suffer from myopia, will not feed well and get extinct, while their kin that have a slightly better sight will have more chances to survive. Therefore, the birds living in this town may develop better sight, to match the improvement of the butterflies camouflage. Or maybe develop a better reflex to movement to be able to catch the pray as soon as it moves around (and catch it first before another bird catches it).

So as you see, living organisms develop out of luck and natural selection. No need to have a plan to cause evolution to take this or that route. After all, not all evolutions routes seem to be "nice" to the human aesthetics, or make a general sense. Sometimes evolution seems to go backwards.

Nevertheless, we we generally find nature "nice", and that's because we also evolved in this nature and "learned" (again out of natural selection) to like things that will help us survive (e.g. edible fruits) or multiply (e.g. members of the opposite sex) and at the same time avoid the few "ugly" things that can cause us harm. If an environment looked "ugly" to us, we would just move to another place that seemed "nicer". Or shape a given environment to seem "nicer".

That's how I understand evolution, and I hope I made you grasp the general point.

I don't think this was posted to prove or disprove evolution - it does show how a really cool creation can transport itself. I would like to know where in the South Pacific these are and would like to see them in person.