One of the shyster 'green' items that a few people will get suckered into buying.

I understand your resentments Russ.

I know I understand the technology. What I don't understand is the tenacity in which the academy reacts to new approaches in the field. I have tried very cautiously to communicate with a white paper discussion. Universities and such. Not to make money but to come to a point were my approach would be a basis for discussion, analysis.

I know that there is a lot to be desired and I consider the current state of affairs not conducive to real world solutions to IC engines and the use of water as an additive. This, ^{"only at certain times"} thing is what stopped and still stagnates these guys and there are many and from all countries and with all kinds of motives still chasing a solution.

I have been preparing a post regarding this matter but now is a good time as any to throw out some communications problems and how to have a constructive discourse to get things done or maybe shoot them down. I can't get to that point here in CR4 due to proprietary information.

Let this be a road map to the realization of an untested chemical and physical process which needs further examination. Just in theory for the time being. I do not want to prove anything right here and now I would just like to discuss the way one would go about publishing and keeping it a secret at the same time.

One of the shyster 'green' items that a few people will get suckered into buying.

So what do you suggest people like myself do? Surely not talk about it in an open forum. Were does one go if one has the revolution waiting in a shoe box. See what that one sentence of yours has done? Make me a beggar (for punishment) and a fool at the same time. Not to mention the flak by the overlords (NO, not the gang).

A few in CR4 are aware of what I am on about after I tried it my way, by making contact and going by trust and reputation only. This collaboration has only confirmed that my system could work. They will not be named and deserve better than being found assisting an artist with the development of a revolutionary water injection system.

Now? How was that for a brag then? The good thing is that I have a bit more time on my hands at the moment. Not much, but just enough to keep you guys honest. There are people working on it, they can't all be fools.

Fire at will

Hi Ky - When I disparage greens I am referring to the empty headed acceptance of no workable ideas that I see so often. So much of the time their thought process never seems to come into play.

The shysters recognize that very many have no idea so they try to market useless equipment with some success.

As far as new ideas, go for it! You have not been flogging some half baked idea for sale but working it through. A new twist can sometimes make the difference.

I am all for conservation and improving how we live - how we treat the planet. I am not for the shyster types or living in a cave or yurt.

Try to teach a steel melt shop operator a new procedure - damn near impossible. They will stick with the old method until forced to change. What they have works and if something goes wrong the upper management will blindly blame them for screwups.

A new twist can sometimes make the difference.

If you would only know how exactly to the point that is.

My partners in crime will crack up laughing when they see this. Serendipity? You got it! Actually, I'll point it out to them over the weekend.

Great to be here, Ky.

You can file your white paper discussion as a provisional patent application, which will secure your priority claim to the idea as it is expressed therein so long as you file your non-provisional full formal patent application within a year. With your provisional filed, you can discuss it with others. Be careful about the possibility that they may claim later on to be joint inventors. I can attest from personal experience on this forum and with academics that most people react to new ideas with the discourteous treatment you have experienced.

In the Republic (514 et seq.), Plato gives the image of prisoners shackled in a cave so all they can see is shadows on the wall. If one of them should escape his shackles and turn to face the light that makes these shadows, the others don't like him for trying to share his discovery. They are used to the shadows, and think shadows are more real than the light. The light hurts their eyes because they are not acclimated to it. The unshackled light-facing free-thinking man causes them discomfort, so instead of thanks he gets punished for the truth.

There is a good point about water taking up space and weight that could better be used for fuel. Maybe that is overcome if the heat can dissociate the water into hydrogen and oxygen. I don't know what your idea is, but I respect your tenacity in keeping after it despite the human obstacles.

Thanks for replying wilmot

I am not even thinking "patent" anymore. By the time I have my last court case I would be in my eighties and that would be in 20 years time, to long for me. I am also active on other fronts and have to look after the bread and butter side of things.

This idea has become so real that I don't have the time to proceed in that conventional way. This idea warrants a "go to workshop now!", not the time wasted on formalities. IP or not? I'd say not, just because there will be less friction in the team to worry about not giving secrets away. All cards on the table, not like a wild west poker.

I am completely willing to present this for free as I would at least get a job out of it because I know too much about my 'tweaks' that others couldn't perform. These trade secrets would stay with me until such time were consulting with others under contract is made possible.

I really don't care about the 'BLING' which is connected with having a patent. Nowadays it is more like a currency, dealt with by the legal departments of large corporations. I have no interest nor the time to play with such complex legal matters. The 68^ters need butter on their bread too.

Not only I but some others have to jump their own shadows. Impossible, I know. In this case I am all give and all I ask for is:

First observe then decide to support or shoot the poor bastard.

As you can see, I'm on the case. Not much more for me to do really, I've done my homework and can now copy and paste at will without using any one's data or solution or part there of.

That's what they all say, Ky.

Sorry I forgot

Hydrogen only comes into it peripherally. It is not the main combustion enhancer and would also put my idea in the HHO department, which it is not. These attempts have been covered here and elsewhere and are the technologies Russ was referring to, I think.

See what happens, Ky.

"The march of Providence is so slow, and our desires so impatient; the work of progress is so immense, and our means of aiding it so feeble; the life of humanity is so long, and that of the individual so brief, that we often see only the ebb of the advancing wave, and are thus discouraged. It is history that teaches us to hope." - Robert E. Lee

Just found this on your site. Isn't that what I was trying to say a bit earlier? Just that this is made up from more beautiful words?

There is hope, Ky.

I remember my dad talking about "going to water", he was a P-48 and P-51 instructor, said it was only to be used in emergencies, so I just looked it up and sure enough it was called WEP (war emergency power) the pilot had the keep a log of time used. The 5 hours of WEP required a complete tear down inspection.

P-51H (NA-126/129) lightweight version similar to XP-51F except longer fuselage, taller fin
V-1650-9A twelve-cylinder Vee liquid-cooled Merlin 1,380 hp /take-off, 2,218 hp/at altitude w/water injection
6585lbs empty, 9500lbs normal, 11,500lbs max 1380 hp @ takeoff , 2218 hp war emergency power @ 10,200 ft., 1900 hp @ 20,000 ft w/water injection 444 mph at 5000 ft, 463 mph at 15,000 ft, and 487 mph at 25,000 ft 5000ft in 1.5 minutes, 15,000ft in 5 minutes Six 0.5-in wing guns
555 NA-126 s completed, 1,445 NA-129s cancelled
First flown by Bob Chilton on February 3, 1945, whether or not the P-51H participated in combat in World War II is still controversial

Charlie2, that is an interesting contribution to this discussion. Thanks for that.

Welcome to our little chat room.

I had read that it was used like that but never the details - interesting.

However, the present generation is mainly huckster stuff.

A few years ago I used to do off-shore power boat racing using 2 stoke engines.

We used to us a squeeze bottle to pump water into the carbs when we needed a boost, worked great, gave you an extra 1000 rpm for about 5 sec.

Would that have the same effect as leaning the mixture? When go cart racing it was common on the final sprint to the finish line to reach back to the carb and lean the mixture out for an extra boost and as I can testify, just before your engine seizes it goes like hell. lol

Not sure but we had to stop using it as there where some accidents because the boost was not controllable. Even when I took my foot of the accelerator the engine revs did not drop till the boost ended. But man was it a kick in the pants

It would depend on your usage.

The aircraft engines of the time were very high-compression, high-horsepower and supercharged.

As mentioned, the water injection was used to decrease knock pre-detonation knock caused by overheated cylinders. The water physically provides a cooler charge for the supercharged air which would only server to increase the temperature at the intake thereby increasing the cylinder temperature.

If you google around about water injection in top-fuel dragsters and eliminators you will see this niche-industry is still alive and well. Those engines are torn down every few runs, so the maintenance issue is taken care of.

You can buy water injection systems from Jegs and Summit.

Thanks for the welcome, I love this bar, I mean place. But now at the risk of overdoing it, I also remember a friend buying a F-85 Oldsmobile with water injection in 1964 (I think), it was pretty quick but it wouldn't hang with the big blocks, so he sold it a bought a 440 Olds.--Anyway, that might be a good place to look and see what problems were encountered that ended the water injection experiment for Olds.

Charlie

Thanks for the post. The point to be noted here is that the technology shouldn't be expected to "hang with the big blocks." I'm sure you understand that. Too bad your friend had other criteria.

I don't know for sure what the marketing folks had in mind when they introduced the F-85, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't about gas mileage or saving the planet. And I'm no expert on cars like the folks that post here, but in my part of the country that era was about brute horse power and an empty county road quarter mile. The F85 was too little too late. My ride was a 52 Plymouth straight six that had a rod knocking and the heater didn't work.

Back in the hay days of the old two cylinder John Deere tractors they were using water injection, of sorts, for extended running purposes when a heavy load had to be maintained when only low grade gasoline or kerosene was available.

If you look at a properly restored Johnny Popper you will see many came with a second tank built right in right from the factory designed specifically for the water that would be dripped/metered directly into the intake runner!

Excellent links for interested parties. Thanks Holzfeller.

The last link I did not know about but all of them are just were I said they were, in the last century. For any one of these to see and study my proposal would be a walk in the park, that is on the chemical reactions during combustion side and how they are dealing with it.

This basic knowledge could assist any of those dissecting my approach which would change 8 parameters:

1. The fuel injected (In my case any fuel)

2. The way the "water" is combined with the fuel and when.

3. The way the fuel is injected.

4. The way the fuel is atomized.

5. The way the injection is preceded. (emulsification)

6. The way the system is governed.

7. The way emissions are dealt with.

8. Choice of materials for injector.

Now to the other, at least 1 dozen companies were the top engineers go and reside and create these wonderful achievements. All of them would understand my technology during an hour's presentation. I can be that confident because I have CAD's and other supporting material which would make it easy to be digested by the learned.

To proceed in such a manner is not possible because the anticipated frustration of them finding that all will change from now on would be to great to overcome. The perfect storm when it comes to disruptive technology. After talks with these technicians, a team of them, I could introduce my technology to and on any of the engines they have on their DINO.

This means that with some alterations my duel fuel injector would become part of any standard engine with the help of a bit of tweaking. Not a complete rebuild or Major changes to the governing systems and sensors, you name it. Like I said in my earlier post, this has been going on since some time now and the basic idea from 1984 has not changed much but has been explained and analyzed in a way which warrants my grand standing.

I also asked, in my earlier post, what a person in my situation should do? That Russ was picking on greenies had nothing much to do with it, my reaction, that is. He's a pragmatic bloke and good on him. Even as a child I was protecting the carp pond from tipping and nowadays they need a party to do that. Laughable!

A while back when Ken (Blink and he's gone) was still active in CR4 I had thought about contacting him. I am getting to the stage were I think just publishing my paper and then wait for a job offer to head a team and just do it. I have spoken to petrol heads about the theory and they can't wait to be part of a team.

One of them cut himself in my workshop and he started bleeding Diesel, just say'n, real old Fellas who know more about the hardware than I ever will. This kind of support doesn't get anything done but keeps me at it.

This might be the time now because it is so well developed (In theory) that I have to be either disproved or enthusiastically supported. I did do hardware prototyping but it was getting too dangerous for the facilities I have at hand.

To get this to be accepted and on the market would take 1000 days, give or take a week, who is counting at such high salary?

I have to continue somewhere .

Any ideas?