Agree with your remark about Car-Fax. Waste of time and money.

It's easy to get snookered by someone skilled at selling cars. He may well tell you about some of the known troubles (gaining your confidence in his sincerity), but he will never tell you all he knows about the car. You don't have to show all of your tattoos at the job interview.

As AH says, let a professional in the business have a look at the car.

My experience with a dealer was I asked to take the vehicle to an independent inspection service before considering a purchase. The dealer declined saying "vehicles come back from such inspections with parts missing". I walked away.

On a positive experience note, I purchase a used car from another dealer offering a 30 day money back guarantee. Took the car to an independent inspection where extensive problems were found with the car. I took the car back and he did refund the full purchase price.

I find it interesting that you categorize the second experience as 'positive'.

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What are the chances that the dealer did not know (and didn't disclose) some of the extensive problems found on the car? Shouldn't a dealer have some idea of the condition of the vehicle they are selling?

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I'd also be curious to know if the dealer made an effort to get a copy of the list of problems from you, so that the problems could be remedies or disclosed to the next potential buyer? If a copy was kept, I'd reserve judgement about the dealer being one of the genuine honest types, until I knew that that future attempts to sell the car were made either after repairs or with disclosure of the problems.

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The story you related suggests to me more that the car deal has theory of mind, rather than any ethical bones. He is doing what is required to maintain a good reputation, but may have simply sold the car again without repairs of disclosure.

It is often very difficult to recognize a scam from a legitimate offer. Scammers are highly trained in the art of deception. Anyone who sells to the public has a little bit of deception in them. The best way to avoid scammers is to only deal with those who have a reputation to uphold, although there is no guarantee of this. It has always been "buyer beware" and "if it sound too good to be true, then it probably is". You have to do as much research as you can and maybe you will be able to spot when a scammer is targeting you. Everyone can fall victim to a scam. It doesn't matter if you are young or old. a scammer has you in their sights. Any media such as TV or the Internet is full of scammers.

I understand your viewpoint. Your perspective is shared by many.

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'Look out! Scammers abound! Do your research and be shrewd! Everyone in sales is tainted by the capacity to deceive! You must be diligent and cunning to gain the upper hand in each transaction.'

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Indeed, scammers do abound. The scary thing in more than half probably don't consider themselves to be scammers.

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So why are scammers so successful? Are they more hearty? clever? fit? resourceful? is it a conspiracy? or does the market reward the characteristics of scammers and ignore the earnest investments of non-scammers?

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and who exactly is making this market, anyway? (* Let's return to that momentarily)

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Before I go too far, let's make sure we are talking about the same group when using the term 'scammers'. ....

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.....'Scammer': a person or organization conducting or attempting to conduct business in such a way to maximize gain on the current trade, without concern for future business, building trade relationships, reputation, or loyalty beyond empty lip service.

A scammers would happily execute a trade for gains far in excess of the market value of what they bring to the table.... though some would be reluctant to be openly joyous as this might hurt business.

Scammers can be found selling used cars, selling fake gold chains, selling payday loans, and offering to convert your change to paper money..... but scammers are not restricted to those areas. Scammers can be lurking anywhere something of value is being offered of traded for another thing of value.

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Is that close to your definition? I'm guessing our definitions don't differ critically.

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Back to the question above....(*) who is responsible for making this market so advantageous for scamming?

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It is obviously the scammers (mostly those who don't even realize they are scammers) that make and perpetuate this market that actively devalues things like loyalty and mutually beneficial arrangements.

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Scamming begets scamming.

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I'm laying the blame squarely at the feet of the multitude of non-self identifying scammers.

Who exactly am I talking about?

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Well, statistically speaking: YOU.

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It takes two to tango.

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You the informed consumer, ever on the lookout for scammers. You the omnipresent deal locator. You the valiant consumer knight, openly boasting about how much money the last business who dealt with you lost.

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Used car salesmen that are scammers, trade with a singular focus, driven to get compensated, far in excess (seemingly) of the true value of the autos they peddle, at the expense of so many ignored consequences....

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...And YOU (statistically speaking) trade with a singular focus, driven to get compensated, far in excess (seemingly) of the value of your dollars YOU peddle, at the expense of so many ignored consequences....

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Who wouldn't brag about finagling a deal on a car that the dealer actually lost money on? Many would title this crowning accomplishment as a 'steal'..... a term that would evoke outrage and contempt had it been used to describe a tricky advantage a car peddler finagled over the money peddler in some trade.

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Bob's Good Neighbor Hardware has shovels for $21.99. Buck's Best Luck Tractor and Truck has shovels of similar quality for $22.99. But screw these guys that live in your town, You can get a shovel for $19.99 at Home Demol or Laid-Lowe.

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Mr and Mrs Kunkle know your taste in movies and have something special in their store for the next time your visit.....which will be never because f*%# some more people that live in your town, because, Welt-Mart [with your (statistically speaking) critical assistance] delivers the crushing blow here just like to so many other small businesses.....this time with 8 bazillion copies that you can buy for a little more than your would rent, but then your own that piece of plastic you probably will never watch ever again.

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Look, I'm no saint. I have have blood on my hands from exclusively valuing the immediate transaction, no different than YOU (statistically speaking). With my help, many small businesses are no more. Towns culturally and economically poorer.

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The destruction is so severe that I no longer have the choice of buying whole classes of goods from local small businesses. NOW, with some benefit of slightly guilt ridden hindsight, when I can buy from a good locally owned small business, spending a few more dollars doesn't dissuades me, or even keep it from being a great deal.

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The way to be immune to scammers, is to stop being a scammer.

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Good business is not about this current transaction. Good business work to continue strengthening the relationship, and rates a deal as 'good' only if all parties are satisfied.

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So sit down with your car dealer, your real estate agent, your airplane broker, your accountant, your chief of police/fire chief/city council, your local hardware store owner, the local nursery......

.and for them to watch out for you the way you watch out for family.....watching out for things unseen/un-seeable by those not in the business..

....and tell them you want to build a relationship of watching out for one another. Explain to them that you expect a fair deal, and that you will be checking around with the competition to make sure each deal is fair (a valuable source of market intel for them) If a particular quote comes in seemingly well above what the competition is offering, you will bring in the competition's offer figure out what is going on....and if your partner can come close, you'll spend the little bit extra and remain loyal.

In return for your loyalty, your partner will help you steer clear of 'good' deals on things you don't need, and will invest in your satisfaction in ways that would be impossible without loyalty.

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Such arrangements would lead naturally to reciprocal arrangements for their business with you and yours, stretching to families, to communities, and possibly to entire towns.

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Long long long story summed up: if you want businesses to value loyalty, do your part to make it more than a fairy tale characteristic.

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Pppppffffffttttt! Riiiiight.

Like that could ever work.

If I head to Welt-mart right now, I can pick up the two DVD set of Back to Big Mama's House the sequel, and With Honey Mustard, I Ate the Children for $2.99 ...

...an unparalleled value.

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As you sow, so shall you reap.