Water & Wastewater Systems Blog

Water & Wastewater Systems

Water & Wastewater Systems is the place for conversation and discussion about resource management & supply, treatment, facility management & engineering, and conservation. Here, you'll find everything from application ideas, to news and industry trends, to hot topics and cutting edge innovations.

Previous in Blog: Good News from Drought Country   Next in Blog: Water Systems in Crisis — Again
Close
Close
Close
22 comments
Rate Comments: Nested

Treated Frac Water: Still Unsafe?

Posted November 01, 2014 12:00 AM by Engineering360 eNewsletter

A new study has increased concerns about the threat to drinking water supplies posed by so-called "fracking." The study, discussed in this Laboratory Equipment piece, found that wastewater from hydraulic fracturing operations (used to tap oil and gas deposits in shale rock) cannot be safely discharged into rivers and other bodies of surface water, even after passing through wastewater treatment plants. The reason: these plants don't do a good job of removing contaminants called halides. The article describes the methodology of the researchers who conducted the study and reports their recommendations.


Editor's Note: This news brief was brought to you by the Water & Wastewater Systems eNewsletter. Subscribe today to have content like this delivered to your inbox

Reply

Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16512
Good Answers: 670
#1

Re: Treated Frac Water: Still Unsafe?

11/01/2014 4:44 AM

Quelle surprise!
Del

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 21017
Good Answers: 795
#2

Re: Treated Frac Water: Still Unsafe?

11/01/2014 9:53 AM

Snopes versus Chicken Little versus OilCom versus EPA, ad nauseam.

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42355
Good Answers: 1693
#3

Re: Treated Frac Water: Still Unsafe?

11/01/2014 5:43 PM

That's OK.

Profit always trumps good practices.

The health hazards of this contaminated water won't kill anybody fast enough to properly assess the blame.

Ho, and we won't ever know what's really in this fracking stew.

Big oil has purchased enough politicians to let them keep the poisons a secret.

And kill most of the other oversight that might have helped keep them honest.

Reply
2
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South of Minot North Dakota
Posts: 8376
Good Answers: 775
#4
In reply to #3

Re: Treated Frac Water: Still Unsafe?

11/01/2014 11:46 PM

I disagree being I actually do work for a large fraccing company and I do infact know what's in the water that goes down the wells and what comes back up.

Believe it to not what we use and at the concentration levels we use them at the fracc water is safer for you that what you dump down your own drain every time you wash laundry, do dishes, clean your sink and toilet, wife takes a shower, or you spray your yard for weeds.

But don't take it from me. I get paid obscene amounts of money by my company to do nothing but spread these lies on the internet as I sit here at work doing nothing all day!

Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 21017
Good Answers: 795
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Treated Frac Water: Still Unsafe?

11/01/2014 11:58 PM

Send me a job app! That would be as good as a winning lottery ticket (in any other than Shirley Jackson's lottery.)

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42355
Good Answers: 1693
#6
In reply to #4

Re: Treated Frac Water: Still Unsafe?

11/02/2014 12:07 AM

Then why use them at all?

I say BS. You know it ain't so.

Energy Policy Act of 2005 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This bill exempted fluids used in the natural gas extraction process of hydraulic fracturing (fracking) from protections under the Clean Air Act, Clean Water Act, Safe Drinking Water Act, and CERCLA.[21] It created a loophole that exempts companies drilling for natural gas from disclosing the chemicals involved in fracking operations that would normally be required under federal clean water laws - see exemptions for hydraulic fracturing under United States federal law. The loophole is commonly known as the "Halliburton loophole" since former Halliburton CEO Dick Cheney was reportedly instrumental in its passage.[22]

Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 21017
Good Answers: 795
#7
In reply to #6

Re: Treated Frac Water: Still Unsafe?

11/02/2014 12:47 AM

"Loophole" is a euphemism for some other kind of hole.

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South of Minot North Dakota
Posts: 8376
Good Answers: 775
#8
In reply to #6

Re: Treated Frac Water: Still Unsafe?

11/02/2014 3:35 AM

"Then why use them at all?"

Why use what? The stuff we put down the wells?

We use it because it serves a purpose just the same as why you use soap in your water when you do laundry or take a shower or use different ingredients when making your food you eat or like when you put fuel, oil and antifreeze in your vehicles.

We use them because they do something that we need it to do to get the end results we need.

Honestly that was a dumb question.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42355
Good Answers: 1693
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Treated Frac Water: Still Unsafe?

11/02/2014 6:59 AM

Well, it's certainly more intelligent than expecting anyone to believe, "the concentration levels we use them at the fracc water is safer for you that what you dump down your own drain every time you wash laundry, do dishes, clean your sink and toilet, wife takes a shower, or you spray your yard for weeds".

Like I said, why use them at all?

Have you been drinking that water??????

Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru
Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Indiana
Posts: 558
Good Answers: 14
#10
In reply to #9

Re: Treated Frac Water: Still Unsafe?

11/02/2014 7:08 AM

And it's on. How many post will it take to just say what is in the solution going down the well, then what is coming back up. Just saying. And guys don't kill the messenger just had to say it.

__________________
Four boxes keep America Free The soap box, The ballot box, The jury box, & The cartridge box.
Reply
5
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South of Minot North Dakota
Posts: 8376
Good Answers: 775
#11
In reply to #10

Re: Treated Frac Water: Still Unsafe?

11/02/2014 7:30 AM

Okay...

Main ingredient is surface water as in water from a local lake pond stream or other naturally occurring source. 100% natural.

Second main ingredient is proppant as in sand that come from local sand pits. It gets screened to several different sizes for different parts of the operation. Typically about .5 - 1 pound per gallon of water.

Third would be hydrochloric acid (19%) that is initially used to open the fractures before the sand proppants get pumped in. In each well there are around 40 zones and each zone gets around 2000 gallons.

Fourth would be Guar gum. 100% natural organic. Tastes terrible but it turns the water and propant mix to a sand filled jelly so the sand will not settle out in the lines or well if the water flow stops for any length of time.

Next would be the assorted soaps and surfactants that work as water wetters to make pumping the gel mix easier. They make a substantial difference in the frictional losses we encounter from pushing up to 3000 GPM through 4 miles of 4" pipe. When I say soap/surfactants I literally mean a few drops of it will make your hands lather up and come clean rather nicely!

Lastly would be the biocides that help prevent bacteria and fungus growth from taking hold. The main reason is that crude oil has a lot of natural bacteria that will eat it and break it down if not treated with a biocide. Granted this is our most toxic stuff but its being added at a rate of drops per barrel.

Personally at the typical concentrations we use yes a person could drink the fluid but I guarantee it would be like taking a drink of sand filled jello that tastes like puke. Believe me I know. I have helped with doing pump work enough times to have been splashed in the face with it and it really is gross tasting.

If you want full copies of our MSDS sheets for everything we use go here, http://www.trican.us/ContactUs/ContactUs.aspx , and ask for copies. They are available to the public for review at any time upon request.

Reply Good Answer (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Indiana
Posts: 558
Good Answers: 14
#12
In reply to #11

Re: Treated Frac Water: Still Unsafe?

11/02/2014 8:06 AM

Sorry tcm was not ment for you. Some of these posts take on a life of their own and seem to go on forever. Duke

__________________
Four boxes keep America Free The soap box, The ballot box, The jury box, & The cartridge box.
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South of Minot North Dakota
Posts: 8376
Good Answers: 775
#13
In reply to #12

Re: Treated Frac Water: Still Unsafe?

11/02/2014 8:17 AM

That's okay.

No one will blame me for not supporting my end of the debate.

Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42355
Good Answers: 1693
#14
In reply to #13

Re: Treated Frac Water: Still Unsafe?

11/02/2014 11:09 AM

Why did big oil spend millions getting their fracking brews exempted for two clean water acts? It sure as hell wasn't to keep the water we drink safe and clean.

Are we supposed to trust them?

You are free to believe any of the propaganda you wish.

I knew guys who used to clean parts with MEK and breathed the fumes. They're all dead now.

While the SDWA specifically excludes hydraulic fracturing from UIC regulation under SDWA § 1421 (d)(1),

Regulation of Hydraulic Fracturing Under the Safe Drinking ...

Exemptions for hydraulic fracturing under United States ...

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Out of your mind! Not in sight!
Posts: 4424
Good Answers: 108
#18
In reply to #14

Re: Treated Frac Water: Still Unsafe?

11/02/2014 8:12 PM

Thats a political answer to a technical question.

Does not prove nothing on the technical side but regulates the technical work!

__________________
Common Sense Dictates
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 468
#22
In reply to #14

Re: Treated Frac Water: Still Unsafe?

11/05/2014 7:42 AM

I go to the city to get my water. It's been cleared by the gubbament, and there is no fracking in the city.

http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/features/drugs-in-our-drinking-water

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru
Fans of Old Computers - ZX-81 - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: 18N 65W o
Posts: 1003
Good Answers: 28
#16
In reply to #11

Re: Treated Frac Water: Still Unsafe?

11/02/2014 7:42 PM

Thank you: I've been wondering about what is actually happening. As usual, there are always several points of view.

Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Out of your mind! Not in sight!
Posts: 4424
Good Answers: 108
#17
In reply to #9

Re: Treated Frac Water: Still Unsafe?

11/02/2014 8:08 PM

Only if you start drinking your laundry water we could get into this further!

__________________
Common Sense Dictates
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member Fans of Old Computers - Commodore 64 - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Illinois, 7 county region (The 'blue dot' that drags the rest of the 'red state' around during presidential elections.)
Posts: 3683
Good Answers: 89
#19
In reply to #8

Re: Treated Frac Water: Still Unsafe?

11/03/2014 9:46 AM

But if it's "safer for us than what we pour down the drain after doing laundry" why get a bill passed to exempt it from EPA reporting?

I understand the need for 'trade secrets,' but if everyone's using the same basic ingredients, then everyone's 'magic soap' is similar, and public disclosure may also allow for easier comparison of 'magic soaps' by looking at the size and efficiency of the different sites by different companies. This could lead to the refinement of 'magic soap' into a single 'best formula' or a small range of 'standard formulas' for different areas (Gulf of Mexico basin responds best to 'mint-flavored magic soap,' while the Great Plains fracking zone works best with 'Sandalwood-flavored,' and up in the Yukon, you get the most bang for the buck with 'pine-flavored').

The more secrets and 'exemptions from disclosure' that Big Oil has, the more likely John Q Public is going to act like John Q Paranoid, claiming the secrets are to hide the 'fact' that the 'magic soap' is made from yellow-cake uranium, asbestos and baby fat scooped out of newborn infants. Or claim that fracking equipment are literal 'earthquake generators' and the fracking is going to destroy this country in the most literal fashion, by breaking the continent up into gravel and make the rubble sink under the waves like Atlantis.

-Please note that these are not my personal opinions, merely extrapolating how John Q Public reacts to Corporate Secrets. Now if you'll pardon me, I think there's a hole in my hat that needs patching, where's that heavy gauge tin foil...?

__________________
( The opinions espressed in this post may not reflect the true opinions of the poster, and may not reflect commonly accepted versions of reality. ) (If you are wondering: yes, I DO hope to live to be as old as my jokes.)
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member Fans of Old Computers - Commodore 64 - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Illinois, 7 county region (The 'blue dot' that drags the rest of the 'red state' around during presidential elections.)
Posts: 3683
Good Answers: 89
#20
In reply to #19

Re: Treated Frac Water: Still Unsafe?

11/03/2014 9:48 AM

Should have read further down before commenting, by appolgies for beating a dead horse.

__________________
( The opinions espressed in this post may not reflect the true opinions of the poster, and may not reflect commonly accepted versions of reality. ) (If you are wondering: yes, I DO hope to live to be as old as my jokes.)
Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member United States - US - Statue of Liberty - New Member Engineering Fields - Chemical Engineering - Old Hand

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 14331
Good Answers: 162
#21
In reply to #4

Re: Treated Frac Water: Still Unsafe?

11/04/2014 2:35 PM

The reasons for exemption may have had more to do with the way the water is being utilized and re-cycled to a large extent. One cannot simply pump water down a well and forget about that, since at the point of release it is considered to be wastewater, even if pure as the driven snow. The oil companies would have had to have discharge permits for every well they planned on fracking, and this takes a long time to write each permit application, have it reviewed, submit it, and even longer to get back the approval, after a public notice interval.

In order to expedite the process, certain criteria were established about the process involved, and as long as the criteria are met, no harm, no foul (at least with the government regulators).

Granted, any water with a high organic level that is subsequently chlorinated with have a higher than normal residual THM, or other organic halide. It takes energy to clean up any polluted water, but to make the water useful for another round trip downhole is not all that hard, mainly a matter of filtration.

__________________
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just build a better one.
Reply
5
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Wolfe Island, ON
Posts: 1357
Good Answers: 109
#15

Re: Treated Frac Water: Still Unsafe?

11/02/2014 2:48 PM

"The reason: these plants don't do a good job of removing contaminants called halides."

I was confused about halides causing toxic contamination. Halides are common salt ions and that would have meant that whenever any contaminant high in salts or halide ions was introduced into a sewage treatment plant such contamination would be possible. There are many sources of salts that could potentially be discharged to sewage treatment plants. When I read a report by the original researchers it turns out not to be halides (salt ions) but rather organic material reacting with a chlorine to form trihalomethane (THM) or haloacetic acid (HA). This should not be construed as the halides in fracking water creating toxins. It is a high organic content reacting with the disinfection process. Please also be aware that the research involved only two samples of water from the Marcellus shale fracking process.

To put things back into perspective, people need to know that any sewage treated water by conventional means will be high in organics and thus we should expect chlorinating any sewage water will also create elevated THM or HA. Many ground water sources are rich in organic material and some are even high in methane. Treating these type of well waters can lead to elevated formation of THM or HA. It is not unique to fracking and is a well explored problem for water treatment plants using chlorine, iodine, bromine as a disinfectant. The good news is that there are ways around such a problem and water treatment plants are highly regulated in terms of testing and removal of THM or HA. I suppose if I took two samples from a cheese plant and did the same research we would then be declaring cheese manufacturing dangerous. IMO.

__________________
If they want holy water, tell them to boil the hell out of it.
Reply Good Answer (Score 5)
Reply to Blog Entry 22 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

adreasler (2); IdeaSmith (2); James Stewart (1); JWthetech (1); kevinm (1); kramarat (1); LOCKDUKE (2); lyn (4); tcmtech (4); Tornado (3); user-deleted-1105 (1)

Previous in Blog: Good News from Drought Country   Next in Blog: Water Systems in Crisis — Again

Advertisement