Actually, the permanent magnets don't have too much to do with it. We did some work on variable speed wind turbines using inverter-fed induction motors in the 1990's (we still used gearboxes though). PM generators are popular because the controls are quite a bit simpler (thus cheaper) and the machines are a bit more efficient.

In fact, the magnets can be problematic because there's no way to turn them off. If there's a fault in the machine and the turbine keeps turning for some reason, the machine can burn itself up. An induction motor can be turned "off" by shutting down the inverter and starving the machine of reactive power.

Steve, Could a small alternator/generator direct coupled (driven) to the primary generator be used to provide power to a manual/automated controller that would actuate a mechanical systempositioning the permanent magnets (or a non-magnetic shield) either in or out of position in order to start or stop power production by the main wind generator?

The design of a machine with an adjustable air gap would be enormously complex. Remember, the air gap in a PM machine is very small - tens of mils in length. Any machine with movable parts in the air gap would have to withstand tremendous vibration in this type of environment. I don't think that's the way to go.

If you want to start/stop power production, you could use a controlled rectifier. Another way would be to stop the turbine. Wind turbines all have brakes to turn them off in high wind conditions.

For over a hundred years, water pump wind mills have had a jacking gear to rotate the turning plane of the blades to a ninety degree aspect to the wind in emergency or for doing maintenance or during high wind conditions. No need to install heavy brakes, but the tail fin is not so elegant or aesthetic to the eye. It may be old and low tech, but it works.

Funnel the wind, Big static funnel, small wind turbine. I am even thinking of making my roof slates here in Lancashire UK into a kind of venetian blind. You know about it when you open both the front and back door, with even the slightest breeze,... paper flies all over! .... With a given wind velocity, the Area presented to the wind = available power. Turbines increase in size to a 'cubic' factor. twice the size = eight times the material needed to fabricate it. Static components do not need to be balanced. etc. So a 'venturi' makes a lot of sense.

Quite strong Magnetic Flexible Strip 1 cm x 0.5 cm profile is available at moderate cost to play with. magnetic bearings? perhaps at the circumference of an internal venturi tube? with a 'barlysugar' twisted blade inside?... The stuff of 'Pipe Dreams' It's fantastic that we can now design in 'Virtual Reality' Thanks to all those kind folk lending the software on the net.

Roughly in the 1920's, a large venturi was built (bell openings ~7M ,/neck ~2M, 8 to 10 M. long) and mounted on a pivot midway between the inlet/outlet) with a circular track under the bells. The mouth of the bells were very near the ground and must have had wheels under them for pointing into the wind and possible cross wind to regulate it or to stall it in order to work on it.

It supplied electricity to Palm Springs, California for a period of time, ling enough for people to see the benifits gained from light and other uses. The location was North West of Palm Springs approximately 15 Km., next to US Highway 99, directly in the path of the constant winds from the Los Angles, San Bernardino valley passing through to the Imperial Valley (I'd say it sounds terribly British).The Imperial Valley is largely below sea level and quite hot), The Los Angeles/San Bernardino air coming in was much cooler (this was long before LA & SB area became wall to wall houses, roads, smog etc).

The unit produced considerably more power than expected, nor did they have a plan to automatically control the system (eletrical power out), And if someone was not there to turn it off axis to the wind as a method to regulate it, the net result was it burned up. Which it did.

We used to pass by the foundation of this machine each August when we went to N. California to get out of the heat. We never saw a day when the wind stopped blowing.

What can I say Jim, but "Thank you very much," for that wonderful tale. I am sure that had it incorporated an automatic regulating device, it may have spawned many imitations. Sadly folk tend to spurn a failure. Just think what might have happened if Hero's century BC. steam turbine racing car had taken off. or the Antikathera mechanical Computer circa 350 BC, had spawned more elaborate devices. where would we be now technologically? For anyone with a sewing machine, and some lengths of 'Rip-Stop' nylon. Just sew up a 'Barly-sugar-twist' wind sock, and you will have a self regulating venturi windmill at low cost. cheers!

ok, whats a "barly-sugar-twist" wind sock?

A wind sock is familiar to all pilots of small aircraft. Just say it's a 'butterfy net' that revolves on a spindle.(think fishing with a spoon lure) About three decades ago, to my knowledge, some Hippies trying to make a bob or two on market stalls, raided a skip in Somerset U.K. of a firm manufacturing hot air balloons (they probably asked permission). Great they thought, we can make lots of lovely kites from all these long multi-coloured triangular offcuts.

As they had a treadle sewing machine, it soon occured to them to make a 'wind sock' The trouble was, the long triangles of cloth had a selvage on one side, and the other was a slight curve. (orange peel segment offcuts). That combined with haphazard sewing machine skills, and possibly smoking the wrong brand of tobacco! resulted in a 'Barlysugar Candy Twist' wind sock. The problem then was how to stop the line from over twisting. The fishing skills of Daddy Hippy came to the rescue.(spoon lure) Good old cheap plastic hoola-hoops were threaded through the seam at the big end of the funnel. They made loads of gayly coloured bunting with the rest of the ripstop nylon.

One varient was to use a circular plastic extruded curtain rail. but the joint/weld, was prone to break.(hot knife technology...those hippies, out of their gourds!)

In my view, this latter concept has legs, so to speak. a large hoop magnetic bearing, fabricated from flexible ferrite permanent magnetic strip, That is the stator, the rotor incorporating short segments of the same cheap tackle, easily cut, arranged in stagger, North polarity/ South polarity. with perhaps less than a two millimeter gap. The power would be generated by a 'square wave' of suitable copper sheet or even wire set into a large glass fibre? reinforced hollow disc, that fits the 'gap' allowing say a quarter millimeter clearance both sides..This conductive disc is part of the stator unit. Result, an alternating current output, with negligable friction. I am sure this concept could be improved and developed to provide cheap and affordable electric power in remote locations.

Good Shoot Alastair C. , Sorry you missed the target . This was in the days of horse and wagon, the gentle people who built this were not related to Edison. If I remember the article correctly, control was manual by positioning the venturi into or out of the path of the wind.

I believe in advancement and have retired from the power industry both nuclear and conventional. TaTa

I have missed so many 'targets' in my too short 55 years, in my view the windmill I have yet to inspect is located in Paris, I believe the wind-vanes cleverly use the power to light red lightbulbs that illuminate it at night. Even without any wind the windmill is brightly illuminated. I must go there to discover what kind of storage device these Parrisians have used.

I think if the venturi effect is useful in wind turbine design, and if "tip speed is everything', and if you can use the ground to assist the venturi effect, you would end up with something like this bulb type design idea.

a venturi is a shape that forces the air to move faster, so this employs that. It also focuses the wind onto the tips of the rotor, as this is where the leverage is. Also, the blinking aspect of this turbine would be much better than the large bladed type. I think the large bulb would keep the unit focused into the wind. It could have automatic blade feathering if that was found to be useful. It should be surfaced with low friction coating. It could also support coaxial counterrotating blades. Why do current designs only have 3 blades? it seems to me that lets most of the air get away untapped.

Chris

Hey there crisg288,

Like the concept of your graphic. Hope it's just that - the SHAPE is everything. Actually what I mean is the shape of the nose cone is everything, according to an old hang glider pilot and designer friend of mine, who also designed the intake scoop on the original Shelby Cobra and the aerodynamic helmet favored by some bike enthusiasts and tested his engineering thesis project, the wing-let tips (on modern airplanes) on our two hangliders way back when. His name is Gary Valle. (The hang glider helmet version of his helmet had/has a bobbed off tail - Gary said it was to allow a h.g. pilot at speed to turn their head to clear their turns - also because "two thirds of all induced drag is in the leading edge.").

I personally think the spinner of racing versions of the P-51 is an ideal for propeller systems, but that's just me and GE's turbine genset designers. Do you think that water turbines would work using the venturi effect, too? Trailing ends need to trail by a minimum factor of 6, as I recall, to actually have any hope of the fluid not loosing laminar flow, i.e., tripping and creating turbulence drag. If one attaches propellers at a tangent - forget there not being any turbulence. Just my hands on experience - no science there.

In addition, I'm a big fan of ducted van propeller systems as used by fan jets, etc. Their potential for venturi improved affects is outstanding!

Keep it up guy!

Hi Tinker65,

thanks.. as far as liquids and venturi, I think that you get less effect, due to the incompressibility of liquids, however they are used, and it does speed up the flow of the liquid, but in air applications, they are very useful, as you well know. (being an HVAC guy). I just based my concept drawing on the standard raindrop or teardrop.. (nature as design guide) and make no claim to this being the ultimate shape. I just wanted to suggest the design, and find out more about why typical applications only have 3 blades. (maybe its a big conspiracy so wind power won't be competetive )

Chris

With this design, I would also like to propose that the leading and trailing shapes can be inflatable, made of uv resistant durable rubberized material, or whatever material proves itself in testing to be durable, reliable, easy to fabricate, and cost effective. This would lighten the total bearing load of the structure, and also make the shape somewhat flexible in high winds.

Chris,

This looks more a tidal turbine.

The shape of the blades has nothing to see with wind.

But nice rendering.

Hi, your turbine design seems interesting. The idea is to capture torque at the periphery of the machine, but one has also to count with the amount of energy that comes in the wind, which is normally very very small unless the turbine diameter is huge. Can you imagine a turbine like this with 10-20 meters diameter? And then, how to sustain it when suddenly there is strong wind or a storm? The energy rises in a cubic law with the wind speed, so, wind is a little cat at normal wind speeds, but an elephant when it blows fast. The problem of wind systems is not on the collection of the energy, but on its resistance. How can one build something to be able to capture 80% of the times the energy of a cat, and 10% of the times the energy of an elephant? (the other 10% there is no wind) :)... I think your design would be nice to use in water. It is somehow similar to the last design I have developed, you may see it in youtube if you search there "wind-splash-turbine". An article about it you may find in my website, google "feliz-teixeira". Keep the nice thoughts!

I've modelled this up in more of a construction oriented way.. just to figure out more about how it would work.. look here

Chris

There is actually two effects with this design. One is the venturi effect on the front end and the coanda effect on the rear which is being somewhat wasted. The reason for two blades or three blades on conventional windmill designs is the hitting the wall effect behind the windmill. Adding more blades would actually reduce the wind speed and volume which would decrease the efficiency.

JohnnyBSmart

Dear JohnnyBSmart,

Thank you for your knowledge. I think there are other factors to consider in this design. In my opinion, the areas on earth that can really justify wind farm economics have enough inertial air flow to make this system work. On the principle that the Diameter is the most significant factor in HAWT wind turbine design, and that the air passing through the central hub zone of 3-blade units is not being harnessed effectively; this proposed system uses simple displacement to move that central air to the larger diameter zone, essentially quadrupling the mass of air in that outer zone. This only slows down the air that is moving from the centre area, not the air that would have originally streamed by the peripheral area. For these reasons, I believe that the extra blades are justified, in order to harness all possible air flow. More air equals more torque. Perhaps concentric rings of blades can be implemented, so the area adhering to the teardrop profile, and thus moving slower, can pass through a different set of blades than the outer, and faster moving air, which might have fewer blades, and higher efficiencies for that zone/ring..

As with any different design, the proof is in the pudding, and I will simply have to build protoypes, and test them. It is on my to do list.

Chris

If you get around to building a funnel-turbine it would be interesting to read the results . I'd read somewhere that power output increases in proportion to wind speed cubed (or is my recollection wrong ?). Also , with a funnel is there any reason you could not divert air flow downward (to avoid the turbine blowing away in a gale).

Hi Kris, Your recollection is up to scratch, but I would take what you read about output increasing to the cube of the wind speed, with a large pinch of salt. It is very hard to calculate precisely what increase in power output is obtained from any given design, blade losses and all sorts of factors come into the equations, but the best guide is to surf wind turbine manufacturer's websites, and read off from the 'Tabulated' outputs declared for their products. These are usually reliable data sets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power

will give a reasonable guide, the old P = 1/2 x p x Pi x R x R x V x V x V formula is given, but also reminds the reader that this is a theoretical ideal derivation. We have had great fun on CR4 conceptualising "Underground" wind farms. That could actually become reality some day soon. The "Hole-In-A-Hill" solution. Well done for spotting it Kris. "Great minds think alike" as they say. Looking at the "Pay-Back" figures, I reckon there could be some great improvements. Currently I read that a 10 KW Rig, costs upwards of $30,000 installed, and maintenance at about 5 years is required.

I will post up a crazy design for a reciprocating Tee-Pee wind power installation. I have purchased some of the components for a prototype already. i.e. 30 x "Ratchet Tie Down" straps as used to keep loads secured on trucks and trailers. A local firm that makes horticultural polly-tunnels will supply a set of galvanised bent tube, to form a large circular hoop, that we intend to anchor to the ground with steel pegs. Half way up the 'guy ropes' a second hoop probably tough plastic pipe will act as a reciprocating pneumatic compressor, driven by marine ply sails that alternate their pitch as the hoop rotates clock-n-anti-clockwise. We hope it could also double up as a shelter for stock, cows might appreciate the back-n-forth back scratching movement as well if we could incorporate that feature. Cows are very curious creatures, they are bound to give this contraption a good inspection. Happy cows make more milk. Wind Powered back scratchers could become a new CR4 thread perhaps?

There are some great All American Brothers in New England that refuse to have anything to do with "Electricity". Their farms are the most productive in all of America. They plough with heavy horses. We do the same on our estates in Scotland, but use gigantic combine harvesters later on. Our Heavy Horse Brigades need the Wee Gee Gees, and tractors don't look good on parade! (Royal Scots Dragoon Guards)

Compressed air could be quite a boon to these good Christian Folk. They might be hard to persuade. Plastic could be a problem? we can work round it though. Any ideas welcome from CR4.

Thanks very much for the detailed reply Alastair . The design is intriguing , I shall watch with interest for future postings . I love the idea of an incidental benefit to the cows !

Your support is most welcome Kris, let's hope the project works out. There is still a lot of development needed. (small scale models etc.)

I am grateful to 'Ohio State University' for their paper "Working with the Amish"

http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/5000/5236.html

Amish practices evolve over time. As modernization takes place, the Amish negotiate to what degree they will accept and utilize technology and other practices of the outside world. This cultural compromise has allowed the Amish to remain a distinct group, yet survive economically.

Other examples that reflect Amish religious ordnung are:

• Electricity from utility companies and telephones are considered worldly and are not found in Amish homes. Instead, bottled gas may be used to heat water and fuel ranges and refrigerators. Gas-pressured or kerosene lanterns are used for lighting. Batteries or kerosene power the red lights on buggies. Gasoline generators may provide energy for washing machines, water pumps, and agricultural equipment. In some church districts, natural gas may be used for ranges and refrigerators.

• Commonly, telephones are put in "shanties" or booths in a communal spot, such as an unlocked barn or near an Amish school, where several families can use them. New technology, such as cellular phones and voice mail, may be used in some Amish businesses in order to compete with other businesses.

• Old Order Amish church members do not own automobiles. Instead, the Amish travel in horse-drawn buggies and utilize horses to pull farm machinery. The horse enables the Amish to take life at a slower pace. It puts limits on their lives, slows work, and requires additional labor. There are times when Amish persons may need to ride in a hired taxi, driven by a non-Amish individual, if business or personal needs necessitate a longer drive than horse and buggy will accommodate.

I reckon there might be room for negotiation Kris, I note with interest that gasoline generators are allowed in some Amish districts, so 'Electricity' may not altogether be banned....Mmmmm?

Some of us have encountered those 'Shake Torches' where twenty seconds of shake can give twenty minutes of illumination from a bright LED. The working principle is simplicity itself. just a magnet in a coil. When I was a kid, I used to devour Mechano Catalogues page by page, dreaming of the next project. We would swap components from fellow enthusiasts, parents would make derisory low bids at auction and jumble sales, for second hand lots of old Mechano for their offspring. When I look at GlobalSpec my eyes almost pop out of my head!.....What a Kit! Mmmmm?

Those flexible magnets that hold refrigerator doors closed. That stuff must come as a 'powder' ready to mix. I see no reason why a heavy magnetically levitated flexible 'Magneto' insert could not be 'cold sintered' in a suitable mould? ...Slip that into a section of curved coil/pipe....possible...but....pneumatics has the advantage, as a small slow movement with a heavy large diameter can force a small, lighter high performance i.e. 'neodymium' magnet, to hurtle down a long small diameter coil/tube.

This needs a session with the 'Thinking Cap' . Minimum Installation Cost and maximum reliability, overrides efficiency. The "Wind" is "Free". Efficiency is applicable mainly to high power installations, as 'Available Space' is a limiting factor.

Interesting- When I first scanned your posting I thought Amish , but put it to one side because I thought they were mainly located in Pennsylvania (although I'm aware that there are a lot of fundamentalist sects in the USA and even sub-divisions within Amish). My knowledge of Amish custom is limited , though I like to think I have an understanding viewpoint (I have a 15 year old autistic son - this sounds off at a tangent , but what I mean is an understanding that other people have a different perspective on life . Amish are no more like a Hollywood film with Harrison Ford than my son is like Dustin Hoffman).

Torches - yeah I think it's referred to as a 'Faraday principle' or something. I haven't got one yet (even though they're fairly cheap) 'cos I've got no need . Last time we had a power out I enjoyed trying to remember how many stairs/where the cat basket was left/ how many steps to the cupboard with the candles etc

I visit Scotland at least 2 X year and wind power is a big issue up there at the moment , especially on Mull. I get the feeling things are going a bit fast , but you have to start somewhere. The new development off Orkney will be interesting to watch -a 'snake 'design just in case you missed it.The projected costings of running the thing look good(considering it's 'new')

This little beauty advertised with GlobalSpec by "Active Power Inc." is a 'megawatt' ...gosh!...flywheel battery, it's very compact as well. If these were installed more widely, say in offices etc. not only would the office benefit from an interruptible power supply, but also at "peak load" times, could even supply the 'Grid' with a bit of extra juice. A subsidised generous pay-back on the Electricity bill, could well put a big smile on the Accountant that worked for the afore-mentioned Office/Whatever.

Windpower often is not available at the time of most need. storage makes sense.

Hugs & Cuddles to your son, from all of us at CR4 I am sure. I bet he can put a smile on your face. My own kids have all flown the nest, I never see them...boo hoo... they are too busy enjoying University life etc. Count your blessings Kris. It's love that makes the World go round. There will be plenty of that both ways with your lad, I suspect and hope.

http://www.globalspec.com/Supplier/Profile?vid=111273&Comp=2528

Quote:- "

CleanSource®, is a 14" high, 32" in diameter integrated motor-generator-flywheel that stores kinetic energy in its constantly spinning, quiet, low friction, 600 pound steel disc. It can generate up to 250kW per flywheel and can be paralleled for higher back-up power requirements. Stored energy from the flywheel is instantly converted to electricity and powers the critical load during utility disturbances or until a standby generator takes over. The flywheel stores energy as angular momentum in a single piece forged 4340 steel rotor rotating in a rough vacuum. The same stator and rotor structure performs all the motor, generator and storage functions. There are no permanent magnets, nor are there coils on the rotor. No brushes are employed. A magnetic bearing that is integral with the motor/generator field coil structure supports most of the rotor weight. This enables the mechanical bearings to be optimally loaded and greatly extends bearing life. The power dense yet simple design provides highly reliable back-up power in a compact efficient package.

Here is the GlobalSpec 'link' Kris. The more of this the better, in my personal view. 'Efficiency' is the name of the "Save Energy" game. A company investing in a bank of these, probably opens their doors the same time everybody else does. they could be charged up overnight, ready to 'share the load' in the morning. If the Utility was experiencing problems, the company could either sell to the grid, or keep enough in reserve for themselves. A special distribution board/meter could ensure this flywheel battery was only charged up with spare capacity. i.e. at discount.

Hello Alastair Carneqie,

Its really treat to watch your postings and discussions with kris , as clean energy topics interests me lot and am working on those wind mills too so i thought to hang around and watch those threads closely , conventional wind mills employ blades and fins to get that force through slippage causing losses and in efficiency while drag too acts , i still am not able to get those conical turbines functioning , is it venturi effect that causes power conversion or air pressure amplification through th scewed section of smaller diameter of the cone........thank you

Wow,

This concept needs to get into the hands of engineers at BART in 'Frisco Bay Area. They are buying all the used NiCad Batteries they can get their hands on and putting them into warehouses along the line to store cheap night load electricity and then dump it into their tracks during peak hours when the rates are sky high. These little wonders look to be MUCH more space/storage dense than Ni Cads.

I'm pushed for time today , but your paragraph 2 is worthy of a very big " thank You" - A little understood condition. You clearly have understanding and compassion .

Great thread guys. Been learning about Viktor Schauberger, a nature watcher/water wizard from the 1930's germany. Seems he had quite a liking for the funnel shape... more like a tornado shaped funnel seems to me a more likely shape for that turbine. With Tesla's observation about viscosity and adhesion of fluids on metals, perhaps a metal skinned funnel in the shape of a tornado, mounted horizontally with the wider opening towards the wind will force the air flowing through it will cause a torque and spin of the funnel. magnets around the periphery of the funnel activating some coils will generate electricity. Will not need be very large to create enough spin for nominal power generation. Magnetic bearings will increase sensitivity and allow it to spin extremely fast in high wind conditions. Should be able to handle extremely high winds if wel balanced. Some test with paper mache funnels have proved promising.

Has anyone heard about a vertical wind turbine tower created by a Dr. Henry Yen back in the mid-70's? It was written up in either Mechanix Illustrated or Science & Mechanics. It was supposed to be the answer to all our energy problems (or at least most of them). I worked with his wife, Elizabeth, at Grumman Aerospace, but have not heard anything about Dr. Yen's project since then.

wind turbine is the only one for vertical axis wind turbine. Low noisy and start in low wind speed but the price is expensive.