Power Generation and Distribution Blog Blog

Power Generation and Distribution Blog

The Power Generation and Distribution Blog is the place for conversation and discussion about electrical power generation, designing and installing power systems, high voltage power lines, power distribution, design & installation services, and anything else related to the power generation industry. Here, you'll find everything from application ideas, to news and industry trends, to hot topics and cutting edge innovations.

Previous in Blog: As Temperatures Increase, So Does Air Pollution — Thanks to Air Conditioning  
Close
Close
Close
47 comments

War of the Currents

Posted April 07, 2019 12:01 AM by ahorner_22
Pathfinder Tags: AC current DC edison electricity tesla

In the late 1800s, Thomas Edison and Nikola Tesla were involved in a competition known as the War of the Currents. This competition was about the introduction of competing electric power transmission systems to the world.

Both Edison and Tesla were able to develop inventions that are utilized in modern life even today. When we consider Industry 4.0, we can easily say that both Edison and Tesla contributed to what is the connected manufacturing environment of the modern age.

Edison is considered one of the greatest inventors to ever live. Among his many inventions, Edison developed DC electricity which became the standard for power in the U.S. in those days. The problem with direct current is that it is not easily converted to higher or lower voltages.

Tesla contributed to the development of hundreds of technologies that play big parts in our lives today. When it came to electricity that could be converted to higher and lower voltages, Tesla believed he had the solution. Tesla’s AC electricity can be converted to different voltages using a transformer.

Because Edison did not want to lose royalties, he tried to discredit alternating current. And then the Chicago Worlds Fair happened. General Electric bid to electrify the fair using Edison’s DC power. But they lost the bid to Westinghouse, who licensed Tesla’s AC induction motor to electrify the fair. That same year, Niagara Falls Power Company awarded Westinghouse the contract to generate power from Niagara Falls. Westinghouse then light up all of Buffalo from Niagara Falls using Tesla’s alternating current. Alternating current basically took over for direct current from that point on.

Although Edison is viewed as the greatest American inventor, Tesla was a genius whose ideas and inventions are utilized even today. Both inventors changed lives with their genius.

Reply

Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: at the beach in Florida
Posts: 30957
Good Answers: 1727
#1

Re: War of the Currents

04/07/2019 12:33 AM

..."Swiss engineer René Thury used a series of motor-generators to create a high-voltage DC system in the 1880s, which could be used to transmit DC power over long distances. However, due to the high cost and maintenance of the Thury systems, HVDC was never adopted for almost a century.

With the invention of semiconductor electronics in the 1970s, economically transforming between AC and DC became possible. Specialized equipment could be used to generate high voltage DC power (some reaching 800 kV). Parts of Europe have begun to employ HVDC lines to electrically connect various countries.

HVDC lines experience less loss than equivalent AC lines over extremely long distances. Additionally, HVDC allows different AC systems (e.g. 50 Hz and 60 Hz) to be connected. Despite its advantages, HVDC systems are more costly and less reliable than the common AC systems.

In the end, Edison, Tesla, and Westinghouse may have their wishes come true. AC and DC can coexist and each serve a purpose."...

https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/alternating-current-ac-vs-direct-current-dc/battle-of-the-currents

__________________
Break a sweat everyday doing something you enjoy
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2004
Good Answers: 29
#9
In reply to #1

Re: War of the Currents

04/08/2019 9:00 AM

I is true that HVDC lines have less losses over a longer distance on OH lines. Ac can be reduced to transmit further with less losses by changing the frequency from 50/60Hz to 16Hz. This would then create hassles for consumers.

But DC being less reliable, I am not sure this is a true statement nowadays. Many inter-connectors are DC and the only hassle is when switching, when a very high leading spike is created on the line. The converter stations are expensive to build, Tfx are larger but lines are cheaper to build. There are enough HVDC stations in the US such as Celilo, Oaklaunion, Big Bend etc.

And as for Edison, well he was more of a crook than a savior, with murderous tendencies on animals. I mean, who in his right mind electrocutes and elephant to prove a point? He is certainly not worth any credit that he seems to garner. Nic Tesla was light years ahead of Edison, a league of his own.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: About 4000 miles from the center of the earth (+/-100 mi)
Posts: 9046
Good Answers: 1031
#2

Re: War of the Currents

04/07/2019 1:50 PM

According to Dave Barry, Edison's greatest invention was the electric company.

"Edison's greatest achievement came in 1879 when he invented the electric company. Edison's design was a brilliant adaptation of the simple electrical circuit. The electric company sends the electricity through a wire to the customer, then immediately gets the electricity back through another wire. Then (this is the brilliant part) they send it right back to the customer again. This means that the electric company can sell a customer the same batch of electricity thousands of times a day and never get caught, since very few customers take the time to examine their electricity very closely. In fact, the last year any NEW electricity was generated was 1937."

https://www2.hawaii.edu/~walbritt/dmed120/assignments/electricity.htm

Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: at the beach in Florida
Posts: 30957
Good Answers: 1727
#3
In reply to #2

Re: War of the Currents

04/07/2019 4:55 PM

Yeah, but he gets all his instructions from his dog.....sooo

__________________
Break a sweat everyday doing something you enjoy
Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 22
Good Answers: 2
#24
In reply to #2

Re: War of the Currents

04/09/2019 6:01 PM

Not sure if this is a joke or you don't understand electricity and the definitions of basic physical properties such as force, work and power. Yes the Electric Company gets the electron back. If the didn't you would not have a complete circuit and no electric.

In either case, electricity is basically the flow of elections. You do not pay for the electricity, you pay for the work it takes to deliver the electricity, or the work it takes to push the electrons down the wire plus some added overhead (wire, transformers, generators, maintenance, etc).

This charge is based on your usage, as reflected in your electric bill. You are charged based on the how much power (measured in Watts) you used and for how long of a time you used it measured in hours. It is called Kilo-Watt Hours = KWh = KW x hr. This is a varied form of the unit of work (measured in Joules which is Force x Distance, and Force = mass x acceleration and … but that is beyond this scope).

Proof:

Power is defined as the rate of doing work or Power=Work/time.

When we multiply Power by time (Power x time) we have (Work/time) x time.

With simple cross multiplication time/time cancels leaving Work.

Hopefully you can see now the foolishness of your statement and you wont be fooled again.

JUST LIKE THE REST OF US YOU PAY FOR THE WORK THAT WAS DONE NOT THE ELECTRON.

__________________
"The lazy mind mistakes words for realities."
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Madison, WI.
Posts: 2093
Good Answers: 80
#25
In reply to #24

Re: War of the Currents

04/09/2019 6:17 PM

Dave Barry is a newspaper humorist. Look him up.

My favorite Barryism was "I'm not getting married again. I am just going to find a woman I cant stand and buy her a house."

__________________
Knowing is the end result of learning, not believing.
Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - New Member Engineering Fields - Nuclear Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: No. VA, USA (No, it does NOTu mean "won't go"!)
Posts: 1791
Good Answers: 75
#26
In reply to #24

Re: War of the Currents

04/09/2019 7:52 PM

You need a sense of humor .... Oh, wait. Are you an ENGINEER???

__________________
Been away a while. Miss all my old friends. Some of you I KNOW are still around. Where are the rest?
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Active Contributor

Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 22
Good Answers: 2
#28
In reply to #26

Re: War of the Currents

04/10/2019 9:13 AM

Touché!

__________________
"The lazy mind mistakes words for realities."
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15109
Good Answers: 936
#27
In reply to #24

Re: War of the Currents

04/10/2019 7:38 AM

A simple search of Dave Barry would immediately tell you that this is a joke.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: About 4000 miles from the center of the earth (+/-100 mi)
Posts: 9046
Good Answers: 1031
#38
In reply to #24

Re: War of the Currents

04/11/2019 10:10 PM

Not sure if this is a joke or you don't understand electricity...

Dave Barry writes some funny stuff...

Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 243
Good Answers: 4
#4

Re: War of the Currents

04/07/2019 10:51 PM

We are stuck with alternating current over DC. Which is definitely more efficient. Just imagine. AC goes from minus to plus 50 times every second (In US it is 60 times). Like the reciprocating automobile engine, it has become almost impossible to replace AC with DC. A wonderful opportunity of using solar energy in DC mode is being wasted by inverting it to AC and connecting to grid. If only solar energy is generated, stored and consumed in DC mode of course individually there would be lot of saving.

But who would bell the cat. Existing AC appliances manufacturing would be affected and so does the giant power companies that thrive on alternators, distribution, controls et al, we are in a vicious circle.

Reply
Commentator
United States - US - Statue of Liberty - How's it going?

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 95
Good Answers: 4
#5

Re: War of the Currents

04/08/2019 12:29 AM

There is a great book call "Empires of Light" that chronicals this amazing war.

I lost my first copy and bought a second so I could read it again.

Norm

__________________
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. AE
Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 20964
Good Answers: 780
#6

Re: War of the Currents

04/08/2019 2:33 AM

The play "A Peep into the Twentieth Century" describes aspects of that "war". I don't know how easy/hard it would be to find, but I recommend it.

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Fans of Old Computers - TRS-80 - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - Hazmat - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - Fish On! United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Detroit MI, USA
Posts: 2497
Good Answers: 269
#7
In reply to #6

Re: War of the Currents

04/08/2019 3:55 AM
__________________
How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life. --CAPTAIN KIRK, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
Reply
Associate

Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 33
Good Answers: 2
#8

Re: War of the Currents

04/08/2019 8:49 AM

I love this discussion.

However; Fact is that HVDC is alive and well since about the 1930's.

Google HVDC.

For power transmission DC is more efficient, no AC line losses to consider.

Reply
Participant

Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 4
#11
In reply to #8

Re: War of the Currents

04/08/2019 11:02 AM

With the added advantages that you are immune from EMP events AND that you no longer have to synchronize your generators.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: About 4000 miles from the center of the earth (+/-100 mi)
Posts: 9046
Good Answers: 1031
#15
In reply to #8

Re: War of the Currents

04/08/2019 1:36 PM

Neither one is better overall. HVDC is cheaper for long runs but AC is more adaptable. You have to have a DC/AC conversion unit at each end of a DC run, which is more expensive than transformers which would be used for AC. So a combination of both is the best solution.

https://www.elp.com/articles/print/volume-80/issue-6/power-pointers/primer-on-transmission-ac-vs-dc.html

Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15109
Good Answers: 936
#10

Re: War of the Currents

04/08/2019 10:27 AM

I've long believed converting voltages was not the significant advantage AC has over DC in power transmission. One DC motor spinning a DC generator will easily change voltages. If you need adjustment then a variable gearing linkage can be adjusted between motor and generator. It certainly was not a difference in safety, for AC voltage will kill much more easily than DC voltage.

I believe the key difference between voltage distributions happens when one tries to turn OFF flowing current. With AC the current returns to zero 100 or 120 times a second thus it becomes easier to quench the arc that always happens when contacts are opened. Ask any stick welder and they will tell you that smoother welds usually happen with DC welding because sustaining an arc is easier with DC. With AC each and every mechanical switch used by the consumer could be smaller and cheaper to fabricate.

As usual, the deciding factor of any business decision is money, not science. A great engineer analyzes the science for the lowest cost solution. This is why the theoretical model for analysis of Tesla's induction motor is the Steinmetz motor model. Steinmetz worked for Edison and figured out how and why AC worked in motors, transformers, and switches. Steinmetz convinced Edison that DC was the more costly approach. In addition, since Steinmetz understood the theory of how it worked better than the tinkerer that they could make better products and better distribution services than Tesla could.

This is why Edison companies still provide AC electricity. Steinmetz power distribution component fabrication company, General Electric, is still going strong. While Tesla's corporate name has been resurrected to make cars, six decades after the man's death.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Madison, WI.
Posts: 2093
Good Answers: 80
#12

Re: War of the Currents

04/08/2019 12:20 PM

Tesla was an inventor and genius. Edison was a self promoting marketing wiz and well connected. The P.T.Barnum of electricity.

__________________
Knowing is the end result of learning, not believing.
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15109
Good Answers: 936
#13
In reply to #12

Re: War of the Currents

04/08/2019 12:32 PM

Tesla certainly was both a genius and an inventor. Edison was both with an added dose of business savvy. IMHO The brilliant scientist/engineer that made distributed electric power all happen was Steinmetz, not Tesla or Edison. (But he did work for Edison.)

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Madison, WI.
Posts: 2093
Good Answers: 80
#14
In reply to #13

Re: War of the Currents

04/08/2019 1:00 PM

If you call electrocuting an elephant business savvy. LoL

__________________
Knowing is the end result of learning, not believing.
Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: About 4000 miles from the center of the earth (+/-100 mi)
Posts: 9046
Good Answers: 1031
#16
In reply to #14

Re: War of the Currents

04/08/2019 1:47 PM

Or execution...

Edison campaigned for electrocution by AC current, bad press for his rival Westinghouse who was developing AC power systems.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/seat-of-power/

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: at the beach in Florida
Posts: 30957
Good Answers: 1727
#17
In reply to #14

Re: War of the Currents

04/08/2019 8:10 PM

Topsy was a dangerous elephant, and was sentenced to die....she was fed poison, electrocuted and hanged...

__________________
Break a sweat everyday doing something you enjoy
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: About 4000 miles from the center of the earth (+/-100 mi)
Posts: 9046
Good Answers: 1031
#18
In reply to #17

Re: War of the Currents

04/09/2019 9:04 AM

IMHO, Topsy was framed, and she probably didn't understand all the nuances of the human legal system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topsy_(elephant)

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Madison, WI.
Posts: 2093
Good Answers: 80
#19
In reply to #18

Re: War of the Currents

04/09/2019 10:01 AM

Should have requested a Tesla Lawyer. ;-)

__________________
Knowing is the end result of learning, not believing.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2004
Good Answers: 29
#20
In reply to #17

Re: War of the Currents

04/09/2019 10:47 AM

Seems to me this was a past time for these folks. For a nation who has lots of guns and cowboys, could they not use bullets?

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Madison, WI.
Posts: 2093
Good Answers: 80
#21
In reply to #20

Re: War of the Currents

04/09/2019 11:32 AM

Which kind of relates to my initial comment that Edison was more showman than genius.

__________________
Knowing is the end result of learning, not believing.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2004
Good Answers: 29
#23
In reply to #21

Re: War of the Currents

04/09/2019 11:58 AM

Agree. Tesla seemed to be a humble man wanting much for ordinary people. Tesla was streaks ahead of many. Edison; a bombastic con man who should not be given house room.

https://www.exopolitics.org/did-trumps-uncle-tell-him-about-missing-tesla-papers-flying-saucers/

Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 243
Good Answers: 4
#22
In reply to #13

Re: War of the Currents

04/09/2019 11:51 AM

In hindsight it is very easy to criticise Edison, the unparalleled inventor that tried to promote his own invention.

The point is that DC is more efficient. At that point of time, HVDC was not invented and Tesla’s AC came as a godsend for distributing over long distances. We are now stuck with it.

Whoever talks of DC is pooh-poohed and derided. People accept HVDC transmission but want it to be inverted to AC for consumption. As long as the antipathy to DC appliances remains, it is impossible to bring it back.

However, I would reiterate use of DC with stand-alone renewable energy scenario that would promote efficiency. For storage anyway, DC is the only alternative.

Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 22
Good Answers: 2
#29

Re: War of the Currents

04/10/2019 9:29 AM

Edison was a self-promoting showman, Tesla was just strange as was Steinmetz a social dwarf, all were of the genius caliper. But the true genius, humanitarian and all around great man that did more for the advancement of science at that time is George Westinghouse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Westinghouse

__________________
"The lazy mind mistakes words for realities."
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15109
Good Answers: 936
#30
In reply to #29

Re: War of the Currents

04/10/2019 12:01 PM

Steinmetz was not a social dwarf. He was an actual dwarf.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: at the beach in Florida
Posts: 30957
Good Answers: 1727
#31
In reply to #30

Re: War of the Currents

04/10/2019 12:30 PM

https://www.ge.com/reports/relatively-speaking-when-albert-einstein-came-to-ge/

Steinmetz probably deserves as much credit as Edison and Tesla for developing AC voltage and other enhancements...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Proteus_Steinmetz

__________________
Break a sweat everyday doing something you enjoy
Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 22
Good Answers: 2
#32
In reply to #30

Re: War of the Currents

04/11/2019 7:13 AM

Spell checker got me. I meant to say he was a socialist dwarf and I forgot to add cigar smoker. So he was a socialist, cigar smoking dwarf and yes a witty genius of great stature, the former paling in comparison to the latter. There are many great and humorous stories about him which could be another blog in itself.

__________________
"The lazy mind mistakes words for realities."
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44.56024"N 15.307971E
Posts: 6474
Good Answers: 249
#33

Re: War of the Currents

04/11/2019 7:58 AM

IMHO: Edison may have been a great inventor,but he was a ruthless and dishonest opportunist. He cheated Tesla in his dealings with him,so Tesla left with his AC ideas and unfortunately fell in with another (IMHO:thief),Westinghouse. His original contract was for $.01 per HP on each motor produced by Westinghouse. During the depression,Westinghouse came to Tesla and said his company would collapse if he had to pay him that "Exorbitant" royalty. Tesla relented,and tore up the contract. Westinghouse grinned all the way to the bank. Marconi copied information from Tesla's lab and got a patent of the first radio transmission.The patent was later revoked and awarded to Tesla,but too late to benefit him. We will never publicly know how Tesla planned to transmit power wirelessly;all of his towers were disassembled and sold for scrap.Only a few remnants are left and the Smithsonian has very little to display regarding him. It is nearly impossible to think of anything that is not a result of Tesla's genius. To me,he was the greatest inventor ever,and an unsung hero.

__________________
"A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." "Never argue with a stupid person.They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2004
Good Answers: 29
#34
In reply to #33

Re: War of the Currents

04/11/2019 8:58 AM

Mr. JP Morgan, There is no doubt, a low down cut throat banker, by today's standards, a loan shark. He screwed Thomas Edison out of his own company. Then screwed Tesla over.

Morgan suffered from Wrist vision.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Madison, WI.
Posts: 2093
Good Answers: 80
#39
In reply to #34

Re: War of the Currents

04/12/2019 9:52 AM

Why we called them 'robber barons' and why Teddy went after them. Amazing what a real Republican will do when the future of his country is threatened.

__________________
Knowing is the end result of learning, not believing.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2004
Good Answers: 29
#40
In reply to #39

Re: War of the Currents

04/12/2019 12:12 PM

I heard the Rupert the Bear, Winnie the Pooh, Koala Bear and Teddy Bear are forming a posse and heading that way.

How much can a Koala bear? I have no idea, but I am sure its not much. Keep your heads down.

Reply Off Topic (Score 6)
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Madison, WI.
Posts: 2093
Good Answers: 80
#41
In reply to #40

Re: War of the Currents

04/12/2019 12:52 PM

Sorry. I'm a little Fozzy on the whole bear thing.

__________________
Knowing is the end result of learning, not believing.
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2004
Good Answers: 29
#42
In reply to #41

Re: War of the Currents

04/12/2019 2:06 PM

Wawo, your humour is appreciated. Brilliant come back. A damned good pick me up which I needed. Cheers for that.

Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Madison, WI.
Posts: 2093
Good Answers: 80
#35
In reply to #33

Re: War of the Currents

04/11/2019 10:03 AM

A man whose motivation was curiosity. When you talk of the others their primary motivation was personal enrichment. Tesla worked for mankind, the rest only worked for themselves.

I have no doubt much of Teslas work was destroyed like his towers. It would have been unintelligable to the others and of no immediate profit, but most definitely a threat to their money source. So, once again we see greed trump humanity. This is the fallacy of socialism, that humans are altruistic and focused only on the good of the species.

__________________
Knowing is the end result of learning, not believing.
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15109
Good Answers: 936
#36
In reply to #35

Re: War of the Currents

04/11/2019 10:53 AM

Tesla did a lot of his work here on Long Island. I regularly pass a museum dedicated to him on one of his most famous research locations. Tesla never had a want for money. This made him far more wealthy than J. P. Morgan, Westinghouse and Edison combined.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44.56024"N 15.307971E
Posts: 6474
Good Answers: 249
#37
In reply to #36

Re: War of the Currents

04/11/2019 2:43 PM

All you can take with you when you die is what you gave away when you were alive....CTS... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Shakespeare said "The evil that men do lives after them,the good is oft interred with the bones".. Tesla was an exception to the rule.

__________________
"A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." "Never argue with a stupid person.They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 22
Good Answers: 2
#43
In reply to #35

Re: War of the Currents

04/15/2019 10:59 AM

First, the failure of socialism is the number of murders committed.

That humans are altruistic and focused on the good is a siren's song, a repeated propaganda tool used to fool people into becoming slaves of the collectivist state. Once established good meaning changes. All good is then defined by the state, and solely for the state; people are left out of the good narrative ever after.

Lastly, Curiosity and Profit, both are necessary. Without either invention and mankind would suffer all the more. It is the bad actors that we need to be wary of, and there are plenty to go around.

To say that one only worked for himself says nothing about the benefit created and proves less about it being good or evil. Even the so called Robber Barons (a term coined by progressives ) did wonderful things for humanity, oil (Rockefeller) saved the whales, Steel (Carnegie) the skeleton of industry, Industry (gave people work and off of the farms), Trains (Mellon, Frick, Vanderbilt) made transportation of goods to all possible and efficient.

Did they make a lot of money? Yes, so what, they built the city, museums, libraries.

Were people better off than before? Yes, as measured by increased life span.

Were people suffering? Yes, who doesn't, pick any time or place, not a perfect world.

Were some of them bad actors? Yes, they exist in all forms even curious scientists.

Greed is good, so long as everyone can share in it. That they don't is the problem that has always plagued mankind.

__________________
"The lazy mind mistakes words for realities."
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15109
Good Answers: 936
#44
In reply to #43

Re: War of the Currents

04/15/2019 11:33 AM

All true but the point is to include all. Doing good for some or even a majority does not exonerate any indiscretion. Similarly, the evilest people did help some people. Nobody is pure evil or pure good.

I disagree with the failure of socialism being a large number of murders committed in its name. IMHO socialism fails when it is imposed in all aspects across the entire socio-economic population. Removing incentives often leads to stagnation and decay in a population.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Active Contributor

Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 22
Good Answers: 2
#45
In reply to #44

Re: War of the Currents

04/15/2019 1:44 PM

And that where it inevitably moves to.

Name one instance where socialism has not been totalitarian and caused the deaths of millions? Not the USSR, China, Laos, Cuba, Cambodia, Venezuela, Poland, Czechoslovakia, North Korea, et. al. Hundreds of millions killed by their own government. I am talking about Socialist government, not social programs within a Liberal society, they are still in the process of becoming full-blow Socialist (dare I say Communist) governments.

That you can disagree with failure of socialism being the number of dead bodies says a lot about your understanding of socialism. Let me be plain, there is one basic concept that has killed more people than all the wars from the beginning of time, this concept is Egalitarianism, equality of outcomes and the holy grail of socialism/communism. Not equality of opportunity, which is I believe your last sentence purposes. Let history be your lesson, only the worst of the worst succeed, the kinder, gentler sort you propose always get killed, whether in their sleep, against a wall, or airplane crash, that is the end result. Unless you believe all people live the same, have the same ideas, same intelligence and are identical in every way, then you cannot believe that equality of outcome is remotely possible. It can only be forced on otherwise enterprising individuals and kill them if they don't comply. The result is always the same, to be poor, hungry, cold and dominated, like everyone else or be killed for daring to be different.

Your ideas exist in theory, not in the real world. Unfortunate or not, we live in the latter.

__________________
"The lazy mind mistakes words for realities."
Reply Off Topic (Score 6)
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2004
Good Answers: 29
#46
In reply to #45

Re: War of the Currents

04/15/2019 3:12 PM

Sweden!

Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15109
Good Answers: 936
#47
In reply to #45

Re: War of the Currents

04/15/2019 3:34 PM

A kibbutz, a commune, and a monastery are all socialist groups but you already see part of my point now that you qualified your socialism rant to Socialist governments. A key part of why my three cited socialism examples do work is they are a voluntary, mostly cloistered subset of a larger socio-economic community.

Getting back to Steinmetz, he certainly was a socialist and lived the role. His valuable intellect and great altruism along with the hardships he suffered due to his deformities made him despise those who didn't want to help all others.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Reply to Blog Entry 47 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Afox (6); ArmyMarsGuy (1); Gadepalli Subrahmanyam (2); HiTekRedNek (2); IQ (7); johnhotmer (1); JPool (1); micahd02 (1); nvirciglio (1); rashavarek (8); redfred (7); Rixter (5); SolarEagle (4); Tornado (1)

Previous in Blog: As Temperatures Increase, So Does Air Pollution — Thanks to Air Conditioning  

Advertisement