Spending on Space: Worth It?

How can anyone object to investing in the future?

People without a present will object to such investment.

The budget would not be a battle if the fools in Washington used the trillions that we have sent them with any sort of responsibility.

We absolutely must continue into space, because you either explore and expand or you die.

Dragon

How bout spending the money for space exploration but tag 60 to 75% to small business or non military war machine stock holders.

Lets face it much of our tech came from the Saturn V development. Other than how to loose cool tiles I can't think of any tech from the Shuttle that has trickled down to common use.

Odd it cost more to refit the Shuttle than build a new Saturn V each time.

How about develop a Saturn VI. A modern V. Put up the rest of the space station in one shot or go start a Moon Base.

Brad

UV, Good Answer, and an intriguing possibility.

Dragon

Wow, you must have missed it, but it is called the Ares V heavy lift vehicle. It is part of the Constellation program by NASA.

The Saturn V had a LEO lift capacity of 118,000 kg and a lunar orbit capacity of about 47,000 kg.

The Ares V will get 130,000 kg to LEO and 65,000 kg to lunar orbit.

The Shuttle can only lift 24,000 kg to LEO. The Shuttle can not get anything to lunar orbit unless it is launched from the Hollywood launch pad.

The Shuttle can not get anything to lunar orbit unless it is launched from the Hollywood launch pad.

So true but man can it move in cyberspace.

I'll have to check into the Ares V, but after: the shuttle; the Hubble; missing mars because no one could convert standard to metric and back; killing two crews of astronauts because politicians couldn't follow procedure. I'm not to sure of NASA's loyalties. They seem to take the "how long can we keep everyone out of space" direction.

And when does the Ares V start lifting? Soon I hope?

Brad

The first Ares V launch is scheduled in 10 years.

I can't wait to see it go because it will be both spectacular to watch and loud. However, I will miss the double sonic booms of the Shuttle orbiter.

Of course space is worth spending $$$$ on. The only problem is that big business does not(or won't) make money on it. At least not as much as they can in the business of war. Unless, of course, they find a plethora of minerals out there that they can mine and bring back at some high prices inorder to bankrupt us all .

Cheers

If you believe the doomsdayers...we need to find other places to live...and fast.

Funnel the cost of war elsewhere I say.

No need to look for a doomsayer.

While the geologists argue endlessly about the causes of the 3 huge extinction events, there are many times more smaller such events, and they come quite regularly.

A look around the universe says that a single planet is a poor place to survive for an extended (geological) time.

Even a stellar system is only so-so for safety, a minor bobble in a star's energy output can wipe out all of it's planets.

What may be an acceptable risk for an individual or a sub-population is unacceptable for a species.

Why not privatize space. I don't see why any government should have a monopoly on it. We've already got a start on it with the X-Prize. It was private enterprise that got people flying. There's no reason private enterprise can't do the job in space as well or maybe better than the government. The financial rewards, though small to nonexistent at first, should be huge.

You know AH, I'm 32, and I'm getting real sick of hearing how stupid my generation is from yours.

I wonder, having interacted with me on CR4, do you believe I'm "struggling with basic communication skills, an absence of critical thinking, and a strong drive toward mediocrity in achievement"?

Perhaps you are the exception that proves the rule?

We really need to open up space to business and let them launch their packages without government interference and build their own orbital space factories and establish commercial operations on the Moon. Nothing drives progress like profit.

I don't believe I am the exception. In my experience my generation is intelligent, moral, and completely disillusioned with a system that generally misrepresents the truth and consistently lies to itself to justify its own inconsistencies. But hey, I'm sure I'll understand when I'm older.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are trying to say though you did receive to good answers.

I don't get many of my posts rated good answers here. That either says something about me, or something about CR4. For instance, on a recent thread regarding warming on mars, I found the scientific paper the article was based on, read it, summarized it, and provided a link to it. That wasn't deemed a good answer and the paper and its conclusions were ignored, despite the fact it was the source of the article being discussed. Is that how your older generation demonstrates their "critical thinking"? With snide comments? Here is the thread. You take a good look as what has been marked as "good answers" on that thread and you tell me again about my generations failings.

What I do know is that in the history of the world, devaluing ones currency has only led to one result. Large disparities of wealth in the peoples of a nation has only led to one result. A nation turning away from science and technology has only led to one result.

Time after time these things have led to the collapse of strong nations. And what are we discussing right now in this thread? Cutting funding to NASA. As though no innovation or good has come from NASA. Are we really so ignorant of the multitude of satellites in orbit which provide services that we take for granted that we would imagine a space program as an extravagant expense?

I guess in the end these ideas and words matter little. People are predisposed to those things they wish to believe and no amount of evidence to the contrary will sway them.

Hey Roger Pink,

Let me try a different perspective. I agree with you, but it is up to us to change it because it will not change itself for the better when the system has been high jacked by self serving individuals and groups.

The system is set up to teach you to conform, to go with the flow, not to look for problems and fixes that others don't want fixed.

If you don't fight for your rights you don't have any.

If you don't know what your rights are you don't know what to fight for.

I'm not sympathetic to the masses, they are lazy and want to be taken care of, not to think for themselves. Americans (yes I'm one) have a bad habit of short sightedness. Space is just one example, we should already have been out there in masses.

Brad

I also read and skimmed your thread. they were so busy making jokes of global warming they seem to have missed the point.

Don't feel bad my first "blog" was ignored for the most part because I don't think they understood that gas could be replaced for approximately 16¢ a gallon. http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/15525#newcomments

So I shook my head in amazement and figured my presentation was not matched to the viewers. So I learn what works and what don't and will eventually try again.

Brad

"I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are trying to say though you did receive to good answers."

Roger,

There is no good way to simply make you understand those words written by U-V. I believe that I understand them, but to understand them requires a lot time and a lot of research that can not be summed up in a few thousand papers, let alone a few words.

The best thing I can recommend is to try to remember those words and one day you will reflect back and say, "Ah, maybe that's what it means." What I am saying is that understanding, real understanding, is many times more of a journey than simply the act of being provided the answers. I am not sure I communicated that very well, so I apologize for any misunderstanding.

Roger, Some of the people who disagree vehemently with you are just angry because their little "save the _____" project got cut and they can not understand why. They also think that advancements in science and technology are evil because they are not "natural" (and some can not understand the advancements and what they mean to them)

And before any one states that I and Roger always agree on threads: usually we do not.

However in this case we must agree to agree.

Dragon

P.S. G.A. by the way Roger.

I thought the system was bad when I was younger than you. The SDS types at college twisted everything and misrepresented the truth and lied to themselves to justify their aims. I supported Goldwater so the Lefties urinated on the door of my dorm room to show how much they were in favor of freedom of speech and opinion. Theirs, not mine.

I am now just over twice your age and I still believe in truth and justice and the American way of life based on the original intent of the Constitution. I still don't understand those who want freedom for only their views and want anyone who disagrees with them to be forced to shut up.

Ha!

Roger, you are by far the exception in any group! I always look forward to reading your posts as there are informative, thoughtful, and well expressed.

If you take offense to the charges, I implore you to look at the data for yourself. It is not I that make those charges, but many organizations that have taken on the task to measure the competency of people in all walks of life.

The sad truth is that there are too many people that fail to apply themselves to their potentials. This dilemma knows no borders when it comes to age, race, gender, or geographic location.

All I did was to point out some personal observations along with some observations made by others. The facts are immutable. If you find it so appalling that it bothers you, perhaps you might consider taking up the charge to make a difference in that matter. It is a noble cause.

Compliments to my exceptional nature aside (and please rest assured that even in a disagreement I like to hear how exceptional I am), I think you're generalizing, let me return the favor. Quite frankly, as individuals I find your generation often intelligent and considerate, but as a group you are like a herd of buffalo trampling anything that is unlucky enough to get in your generations path. Deficit spending, legalized torture, unfettered capitalism, the repeal of almost all of our rights (via the patriot act), these are the fruits of your generation.

To be quite honest, its hard to understand your generation sometimes. You did all these great things like the civil rights movement, ending the war in Vietnam, repealing the draft and then 1980 hit and its like your whole generation decided "screw this, I'm only going to worry about me". I suspect that the pendulum swung too far to the left (drugs, free love, etc.) in the late 1960s and 1970s and you guys have been overreacting the other way ever since. You guys talk a lot about civil rights but under the last president we've lost them in the name of fear and patriotism.

And now you ridicule my generation for not caring and incompetence? What you don't seem to understand about my generation is the reason we are disengaged is because we see all of your generation's inconsistencies, the ones you refuse to let yourselves see. There is a reason that two of the most popular shows on T.V. for my generation is the Daily Show and the Colbert Show which are both satires. There is a reason our one of our favorite movies was Office Space another satire. Too often your generation says one thing and then does the exact opposite. I mean, your "conservative movement" consisted of deficit spending, interventionism, and the patriot act, my god.

I appreciate your willingness to hear me out AH. Although I disagree with you on some issues, I always find you receptive and reasonable, something I admit I can't always say of myself. If my criticism of your generation seems harsh, keep in mind what I said, as individuals I think you guys are great, but just as you see the failings in my generation so clearly, so to are the failings of your generation apparent to me.

Take a look at the 1860s. Lincoln was considered to be the worst president of all time back then. Democrats did everything they could to subvert Lincoln at ever turn. It is surprising the similarities between that time and today. It's hard to see clearly until the fog has passed.

He who wins does write the history. Lincoln and or Congress did a lot of things we are paying for now. Who is not near as important as what and how to get it fixed so the results are moving in a positive direction.

Now if one can figure in the classical mess what is the positive direction?

Brad

Funny how I'm the one caught up in the cliches but you see the facts so clearly.

Having reviewed your earlier statement, you're right, your criticism was of all college students up to their early thirties, not the entire generation.

I agree this isn't the forum for this, I'll back off now and give you the last word. See you around CR4.

It has long been known that the younger generations are more likely to try anything that suits their fancy, whether it is sensible or in line with established principles or not. As they age they learn what works and become more "conservative". [At least many of them do.]

Very true; even Ronald Regan ("The Gipper") was a liberal before he "saw the light".

If the American Dollar was based on something besides debt I would agree with you completely.

Good Answer.

Dragon

Guys, guys, guys, can't we all get along ? Younger, older, whatever the case may be we are all doing pretty much athe same thing (in a nut shell), right? Working for a living... Yes? No? Maybe so.....? There is a difference, of sorts, in some people in the different generations. But not everyone reflects the differences. I am 40 and have seen plenty of slackers in my age group (generation). The generation doesn't make the slacker, it is the family and that particular individuals' up bringing isn't it????? The older generation, as well, has their share of people with issues... Free Love, hippies (think of tree hugging aclu types, and tenured professors that teach at colleges around the country that are showing students that the "left" is right), etc., etc.

The comments about the boob tube are totally in line. Turn it off and start spending more time together as a family (remember "game night" from parker borthers?)....We have enough problems with our government and the situation here in the U.S. No more, k?

Hmmmmmmm, I did not know that this was a thread about how to get 'A good answer'... I can admit that I was happy sto get my first GA's over the weekend but they are not what I am about, not what I am looking for ... Sounds kinda like the guys who were complaining about other members "conspiring behind the scenes" with other members to get GA's. Hmmmmmmmmm, I did not know that there was a competition going on here. I am guessing that I am sorely in need of some assistance, huh? Lil' help please ... I meant damnit, CW7 11 has a few more posts than I have and has 8 more GA's then I have (muffled laughter in the background). I guess if I am not witty enough then I do not deserve the coveted GA, huh?

Go get 'em Roger

Yes it is worth it.

I believe we or our children will see robot mining on other planets and possible the removal of hazardous matierial from earth for storage there. We already know robotics can be contraolled from earth it is not that much further to go to mining. Sending radioactive materail there could be good for humans here.

Yeah, I have been wanting to get that one down (about the hazardous material being sent away, I guess radioactive or anyother for that matter) as a comment to this thread but drew a blanj everytime I got here. Can't you just see it? Sending our nuke waste up to space and then getting a trash violation from ET or something? Or the environmentalists will be crying about how we are going to be making space an unsafe place to live, or something along those lines ...

Cheers

Hello Ferris,

Space trash needs to be recycled if reasonable and dropped into the sun if not. Benign materials could be stored for future use. One thing space has is a lot of space.

Brad

In terms of value (amount of science gained per Dollar/Euro/Yen spent), robotic space exploration (e.g., Mars Rover) beats manned space flight, hands down. Unfortunately, the ego of nations (along with a few careers) is caught up in manned space programs, and so the Chinese are working now to send their first man/woman to the moon. Let the Chinese have their day in the sun (or on the moon - sorry for the pun:), and let's be wiser and more mature here in the US, Europe, Japan and developed world with how we spend our money in outer space. We've already had our moonage daydream realized - time to wake up and focus on planet earth. :) -april05

An update on the Ares V http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/imagegallery/image_feature_1210.html

Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Brad