Will Alternative Energy Make You Green?

There is a great new book out called The Manhattan Project of 2009 Energy Independence NOW by Jeff Wilson. I highly recommend this book for anyone interested in alternative energy. www.themanhattanprojectof2009.com

No energy source is going to be perfect. There are complaints from NIMBYs about oil, gas, nuclear, wind, wave, hydro-electric, ethanol, and just about averything out there today. Once solar reaches a "critical mass" the critics will start there as well.

The point is that no source of power is going to make everybody happy. And most will absolutely irritate the daylights out of others. There will come a point when the only response will be "If you don't like living near it, move."

Turbine envy.... That's good....

Is there any connection to EM fields and supposed sickness ?

If it is noise that is the problem I am sure I can provide solutions.

What frequencies are being generated ? What size are these turbines and what is designated power output ?

Hey man ..the trees...they are waving in the wind ..it gives me nausea...hey and the sea...
Have you seen the sea...it goes up..and down..
and then it goes up and down some more..
Man I cant stand it..it gives off such a bad vibe .

And this whole night day thing...just when I'm getting used to the kight...gues what ?
It damn well goes dark...jeez this whole planet is a nightmare...

Del

Hello Kwetz,

The green label is but a marketing of fraud in my opinion. Most of the time (no not always) Green is a label giving to state that something is good for the biome it is used in. I and others call this green wash.

Is alcohol Green, burned as it is, for transportation fuel? It is labeled green. Currently in America, made from corn, one gallon of petrochemicals is used to produce 1.25 gallons of fuel alcohol. Now add the residue of the burnt alcohol to the final end product of distance per volume for quantity of currency. Our conclusion - Green Wash.

Ecologically sound is the recycling of glass. When I hear something labeled "green", my wallet gets nervous.

Personally what you are describing is efficient and responsible. What greenies believe they are supporting, but because it is a belief they don't see anything but what they want to see. If you start digging through the BS, the bottom line is not what is marketed as fact.

Brad

My self designed solar water heater gives me a savings of about $30 a month, so yes I feel "Green" in a good way. ( It cost only about $289 + DIY labor. Its not obtrusive and indirectly collects heat instead of being directly in the sun; thus weathering problems are much reduced. ).

On the other hand, when we had 3 hurricanes in a row in 2004, the neighbors running a mufflerless generator made the whole neighborhood miserable. Yes , like chinese water torture , if you have something neat, it tends to be a boost mentally, but others may be less enthralled. (especially when they might think as has happened in the past with poorly designed systems; what if a vane flys off at high speed and rips through my house or my car or me? That can create anxiety indeed). That is the reason they design them for slow rotation as opposed to high speed rotation to reduce the centrifugal force and lessen the potential for damage to property and person. (a 3000 rpm vane flying off a 12' diam mill "could" go 1/4 mile before hitting earth !!! ---> more anxiety) but not to worry, they good systems keep diameters down and/or rotations slow enough to be safe enough (when not rusted and well maintained).

But why not just start installing solar panels as you get the money you can keep adding on to them? Quiet, safe!

Some cash-crop farmers are trying to push through a wind farm in our area.

The light hearted comments that the people complaining should shut up and move or that it is just in your head are simply ignorant.

After watching people speak about this subject it worries me. These are regular people. They are parents, farmers and rural residents. They are almost brought to tears discussing the effects on their children, their livestock and their livelihood.

I guess I could move. I could sell our property that we have worked so very hard for. I could take the loss due to the lowered value (caused by the wind farm proposal) and start all over again. But many people do not have that choice. Their properties will be worthless beside one of these monoliths. They will not be able to afford to move.

Or I can do my best to support the group of residents fighting against the wind farm.

I would have assumed that on an engineering forum the real effects of pressure impulses, sound levels and EM fields would be better understood.

Hello gdevine,

I can understand your feelings, and I apologize if you've feel offended by any of my words.

But it doesn't invalid the arguments. All progress made by human kind have its price, the highways, railroads, airports, HV transmission lines, etc. are not devilish by itself, they have improved our way of life. It's the use of the engineered devices which can be good or bad. I don't think any of us like to have some industrial plants just beside our backyard but decisions on location of almost all of them are not taken by "engineers" or at least not acting as "engineers", unfortunately the economic (always money) factors prevail, disregarding any other.

A wind farm, as any other plant can be located in a wrong place, but the plant has the same performance characteristics as the right located. I think we know something about pressure impulses, sound levels and EM fields but beside some truths are also some false prejudices. Not all published matter on the risks of technology have a solid background.

Kind regards

No offense taken. (not the type to be offended )

I agree about the bleeding heart issues involved. But it is another little guy v.s. corporation battle.

It is all very stupid really. The last meeting I was at a speaker was challenging the model choice of turbine as a bad choice for health issues. The corporate representative said "the winds in this area are so low that we need to use this model". Um..... did I miss something? Why are they building them then? Politics! Build where you CAN not where you should. I guess the rubes in our area seemed like a good target for the snake oil salesmen.

Even the brother of the cash-crop farmer (the one that will make money from the land agreements) if fighting it.

Anyone have Erin Brocovich's phone number?

As a Brit I find it beggars belief that in such a HUGE country as the USA they cany manage to set up windfarms away from residential property.
Or is it a case of farmers whingeing 'cos it's on their land even when its 5 miles away??

Del
(I'm curious... well I'm a cat, WTF do you expect? )

Hey Del,

Here in the NW where the Columbia River meets the Snake River ( a mile or two from my house). We have the Horse Heaven Hills. They are some very boring grass covered tall hills I have traveled past before I can remember.

They Now have hundreds of large windmills on them. The wind here blows 95% of the time. The cut through the Cascade mountains makes the Columbia Gorge a huge wind funnel. Most will not live on the hills because of the wind. The birds that live on them are ground dwelling birds (pheasant and chuckers Neither native).

The Tri-Cities here has boomed over the last 45 years that I've witnessed. I've never heard a complain here about the windmills. I'm designing a vertical windmill to install myself.

If you have abundant wind make windmills, if not someone is perpetrating fraud on the public and the public of the area needs to get off their butt and do something about it. If they wish to be Sheople then they have no rights to complain about.

As for unsightly many houses fall into that cat agory.

Brad

Del,

Would you believe initially 200 meters from the nearest residential building?!?!

But they have graciously agreed on 400 meters.

Studies I've read show problems even at 2 km away and other studies suggest 5 miles.

Hello and Where are you at gdevine?

Even 400 meters with the windmills here would rattle your house. Sounds like a trespass on the right to enjoyment of their real property.

Brad

Ontario Canada.

The more I look at this proposal the more it worries me.......

gdevine,

"I would have assumed that on an engineering forum the real effects of pressure impulses, sound levels and EM fields would be better understood."

i for one, would like to see a discussion of these things.

If ones looks at the total energy picture, it may be a death spiral. To make a wind turbine, it could be that more energy is consumed than what is produced. Think of each tiny piece, including the energy to write this post. Workers driving to work, plastic for the tie wraps, insulation for wire, lubricants, sales people flying around, trucks hauling parts for the parts for the parts for the sub assemblies for the assemblies, paper to print drawings, lights, heating, AC in the offices that employ office staff, factory workers . . . imagine drilling down through all this and every piece until you find total energy consumption.

Two key things for me that will 'save the planet': Stop making babies and stop greed. We are so overpopulated only a few have real quality of life. Greed has make deals more complex requiring more complexities and energy to support those complexities. The unfortunate circumstance is by design, we are greedy and want to boink. Too bad.

Here's what I'm talking about in the link below. If we just run around willie nillie saying solar panels or wind is the answer, I wonder if anyone has done the total energy payout to the level I suggest in the post above.

http://change.gov/newsroom/entry/president_elect_obama_promises_new_chapter_on_climate_change/

In my state we mandate X % of energy must come from renewables. Nobody can back up the number (how it was selected) and how much energy we will spend to save energy. Nobody.

An argument against nuclear power that was put forward, was I believe, that the first seven years of a plants output equaled the energy it takes to build it . You are correct that all energy expended needs to be taken into consideration, for the true costs, of any conventional or alternative energy project proposed .

Brian J

I don't think anyone drills down far enough to evaluate total energy of a nuclear plant to the level of fuel used by workers and suppliers and their suppliers and that of hauling and storing the waste. I watched a salt mine get dug out for waste storage and now see hundreds of trucks delivering waste, new bypass roads built for those trucks, more trucks, those costs to build those trucks, more food at truck stops . . . . on and on and on it goes. The studies (energy for studies?) should include, what would be saved if it never happened and each path of the process get drilled down all the way upstream to more prosperity for workers means bigger houses, bigger families, bigger consumptions, etc.

I agree with you both, the total cost not just the up front cost. This is my complaint about green washing of products. What we need is a good measurement of Total costs to compare with. Not just some political sales pitch.

Brad

That's a bunch of hot air sorry couldn't resist that one.If theres a problem with vibrations from the wind towers which I have heard of before try taking motion sickness pills. Either that or just move away.