Help from Engineer Members, Advice Sought

Unless you live there, my advise is to get out there with your engine as is. If it is in the sailboat on the picture.

I hope your sails are not cracked either. Where in the Bahamas are you? Give some specs about the engine please. I repaired my 1979 Thornycroft with new India made parts.

Can "slick" or a last chance repair additive get you out away from the dock?

(or a weld on the piston?)

Getting parts and professional (good) assistance in the Bahamas might be a big challenge.

Once you take the piston out and you are able to measure the parts, after market parts might be easier to come by, unless the catalogs are engine/ model/ serial number and age related.

It will be a difficult search with many "obsolete" remarks.

A specialist is "Candaslar" in Turkey. He has send me parts before. (has plenty of old stuff and probably a link if he cannot help you)

If your boat is under a Bahamian cruising permit you might be tax exempted for these parts.

(The old mitsubishis could have BL roots, depending on the model)

It's not the boat in the picture. That one has a Detroit.

We are at the governmet wharf in Cupid's Cay (Governor's Harbour) Eleuthra in a CAL 34. We have been exclusively under sail since south of Cat Island and can do most of the trip under sail, but it would need an engine when we get to Ft. Pierce Inlet, back in Florida.

What size was your Thorneycroft? I understand that they also used the Mitsubishi K4D engine as a basis for marinization. Contact info for India supplier would be appreciated.

As for Leyland engine, my understanding is that the Westerbeke W33 is Leyland-based - but not either of the W-27 engines, which were alleged to be two consecutive developments of the K4 Mitsubishi diesel. If the BL roots run to the Mitsu's too then I could look in that direction too.

The engine is a Westebeke W-27 - low range serial number. This engine is not original to this boat. It came from a Nonsuch built (I think) in 1983. It is from the 'early' serial number range in their parts book and basically not supported anymore (by them)(or apparently - by Mitsubishi).

Welding might get me through this. BUT...The piston is not holed, rather it has split in half along the axis of the wrist pin. When I flip the block tomorrow, and pull the piston and rod out. I expect to find some deformation. as it took so long for the rend to become fatal. Whatever gets welded would probably require subsequent machining. It would also mean another teardown to replace the 'temporary' welded piston.

Engine block carries the cast-in number: M3907

Piston measures 2.868" diameter and bears the number: D140 on its crown

Westerbeke: serial number is 14302C402, and is on a placard screwed to the exhaust manifold

I believe the engine to be a Mitsubishi K4D but do not know specific details beyond that. I have not been able to locate any numbers stamped on the block by the manufacturer.

A group of Cruisers from down under came by this morning while I was redoubling my lines and advised that I follow up with you about having new pistons made in India. In your experience, would I have to send someone the old one to have them make a copy?

Do you have a name/address that I can contact?

Thanks for the help

D

.

One thing that comes to mind is bringing your problem to a machine shop and talking over options. There appear to be several in the Bahamas that pop up on a Web search, including precision machine shops, automotive machine shops and welding+machining shops.

Another option or perhaps in conjunction with help from a machine shop, would be to search for a piston and rings of the same dimensions even if it is from another manufacturer. Slightly larger dimensions could be brought in line by a machine shop, though certain dimensions would be far easier to correct than others, I suspect.

I am told that there is a boat repair yard at Spanish Wells, which might be my only possibility. I have used a couple of repair shops in Nassau in the past, but did not find one two months back when we a fellow cruiser needed something made up. The mechanic whom we were dealing with recommended against using the local machine shop.

and what sort of time issues are we dealing with?

I have been sitting for years at the dock in the Bahamas.

I'd contact these guys, they'll make new to order and supply rings

http://www.rosspistons.com

Thanks Fredski

I have sent them a note asking the usual questions.

My personal cruising permit expires pretty soon, but I expect to be granted an extension. I'd like to get a source before I strip slide the engine along its bearers and trun it upside down to get at the big ends. (the cabin gets a little crowded with that stuff going on)

Worst of the worst case says I might even have a bent rod, or multiple pistons going the same way.

You would be able to get an extension ($500,00) for the second year.

Contact customs dept. and also immigration (for your stay).

A different approach is to go into a shipyard. The owner "works" on your boat and once it is repaired, you set sail.

Thanks SE. Have seen both sites. The Bee-Auto one just gave me better feedback than the last try... . We'll see what their response is.

The first resource, engnetglobal.com, listed three versions of the mitsubishi which I might have. I have no criteria to distinguish which one I have.

Did you notice the lock on an attempt to start? Could you possibly have con rod and/or journal damage? Anyway, I bet there is an engine somewhere in some salvage yard waiting for you. I saw a documentary featuring speed boat taxi's on the Mekong, the long shaft pivot mounted Nissan engine (from a salvage yard) pushed to 70 knots. The guy had to use his hand for a choke. Everything is better in the Bahamas.

I feel you are right, I feel that its better to have a complete replacement (running!) engine than trying to fix and find parts with a possible unknown outcome.....there are so many parts that could be damaged (broken/bent!).

I have seen a few repairs attempted, on the grounds of economy, that failed due to "hidden" damage....that only came to light AFTER the repair!!

A more modern motor would be a good idea with easily available spare parts. My personal idea would be to go for a small (ex car?) diesel, a far lesser fire hazard for example from the fuel....lower revs maybe, turning a larger prop maybe, better economy maybe - all possible outcomes.

There have been so many VW 1.9 and 2 Liter car engines made over the years (only as an example), both with and without Turbos, from 60 odd BHP upwards. One from a crashed car maybe? Though I have no idea how much space is available onboard and or what BHP is required....

The French car company Bellier has a small (lumpy!) diesel engine.....around 7 BHP.....more I do not know....

4 cylinder is naturally smoother than 3 or two cylinder motors....if space allows.

Thats my 2 cents worth......

30 hp diesel seems to push her at her 'hull speed' quite happily. And, yes a newer Kubota might be in this boats future. Prop dia is dictated by clearance from the bottom of the hull but the prop pitch is adjustable.

The damage will not remain hidden unless - there turns out to be no source of parts. I am pretty sure that one of the sources that Solar Eagle noted can supply pistons rings and (if necessary)rods. Fredski recommended a piston maker too.

Resources in the Bahamas are very lean. And my connectivity is pretty lean too - internet was being conducted on an old ipad - on borrowed wifi. Phone is even worse.

That is how it happened. Definitely possible that i have a bent con-rod - will have to strip it down completely. Need a source of supply before I get enthusiastic about that.

I have been given a few leads here in Eleuthra last night so Monday Sue and I go on-safari looking for a junker to rob.

D

saw that water-taxi thing in an old James Bond movie. scarey

I figure you have the head off already else you wouldn't declare the piston cracked.

If you haven't already done so, continue with dismantling and whip that piston and it's conrod out.

Go to an automotive breakers and start measuring old pistons for diameter, skirt length and gudgeon pin size etc until you find one that is a close enough match. Fit that. It may give you a clue to what other motor has the same pistons as yours and an aftermarket replacement is available if you go off label. Never know. Identical engine parts end up in different engines with different part numbers. It depends how desperate and stingy you are I guess.

Save up for a replacement motor in the interim.

Good idea, but he should also weigh the parts as well before installing against the original parts....

You never know!!

True enough.

Salvaging from breakers normally yields original parts. Worn but original. It's the aftermarket / "OEM" stuff that gets a bit light weight out of the box.

I don't know how dire the OP's situation is.

Me neither to be honest, but an engine damaged by Hydro Locking, is usually not worth looking at....sell off the ancillaries and make a few bucks and find something more modern and complete....as I said before, also I would (if the vessel is large enough), try and shoe horn a diesel in.

One of the beauties of VW Car diesel engines, that I completely forgot to mention before, is that many come over the last 15 years or so with a 120 amp Alternator!! You can never have too much power on a boat! Recharging of batteries for example.....!

The reason was that they had a large electric "heating element" (don't ask me what the wattage is, I don't know! But probably around 1 KW I would guess!) in the cooling water, that on cold winter days was automatically fed from that alternator to warm the water up faster so that the heater would clear the screen and warm the toes! Probably not needed for a boat!!

Easily removed/disconnected....it works within a few miles on the coldest day....in a car! Mine has it as standard.

Or maybe it could even be used to supply a boats domestic water system with hot water for washing and the like....? As long as the engine is running of course!

Just a thought!

there is the slimmest chance -but we may indeed locate the parts from a junked similar engine.

yup, the head is off. And ther block is stripped awaiting floorspace under the dining table in the cabin.

Replcing the engine not possible here and now(ish) but maybe next month in Florida, if parts not available or scope of work is too expensive

My uncle had a WWII beater jeep that had a cracked piston. My father told him "If you don't want want to spend too much, you can take that piston and rod out, plug the oil port and remove the pushrods." My uncle, being short on funds, took his advice. The now three cylinder jeep ran a little rough, but spent the rest of its life charging over anything my uncle could could find, from boulder strewn creekbeds to climbing a levey and parking in the Illinois river up to the hubs, as a fishing platform.

Won't be happening with this one, but mostly because when I need an engine, I REALLY NEED an engine.

It would appear that Thorneycroft in the UK used the Mitsubishi K4D and called it the T80.....also Sole and Sabb (not Saab!!) had a version that might still be available.....

Whether or not this is a help or not I cannot say.....but you might contact either of them about spare parts....

Look at these videos to see if they help at all:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c4yfDlzsuE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfR5DQfcVo4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlv4q2z-xd8

I searched on YouTube using "mitsubishi K4D" only.....lots more where they came from!!

Nice videos. I will hang my video of this mitsubishi running before I put it in the boat and post the link.

Still can't believe that a non-running(as in static) hydraulic lock up would do that to the piston, but- there it is, cracked after only 130 hours since installed.

The energy of the running engine, is brought to a sudden and abrupt halt. That energy must go somewhere.,,,,liquids are generally considered as uncompressible....

The usual place for a damage is a bent con rod, bent crankshaft, damaged crankshaft big end bearing surface, damaged bore, damaged crankshaft bearing or piston. Or all of them....I am sure that I have forgotten a couple of places too.....it could even happen that a con rod breaks through the side of the block!!

You do need to completely dismantle the engine and check everything, but I am of the opinion that its a waste of money to repair.

But it can supply ancillaries, manifolds and head to a different furbished bottom end.

It was not running!

The engine siphoned water overnight after launch and would not turn over in the morning when we tried to start it.

I have experienced this before (other boats- other peoples engineering - let me quickly state) and the engine survived without dire consequences. imagine my dismay!

Now that may mean you can repair it without much trouble!! Provided you can get the parts

Engines running and getting Hydrolock are often totaled....

I even found an K4D engine manual as a pdf, send me a normal email via the CR4 PM and I will send you a copy....

i have never done that normal email by postmaster

it keeps tossing me

?????

You need to send me a Personal Message, vie CR4 email, with a valid private email address of yours, assuming you want the pdf of the engine manual that I mentioned to be sent.

will do this again

the only thing in the message will be the address, just in case something else is triggering the diversion.

thnx

The older narrow boats used on the canals here in the UK use the small BL/BMC engines it might be worth contacting http://www.calcuttboats.com/engines.html they may be able to help or point you in the right direction.

here is a video of this engine running in the boatyard before I installed it:

https://youtu.be/1k-MXFB6S_k

I would ask around to locate a local salvage company then contact them for identifying the possibility of obtaining good used parts to get you back to the mainland where you would have access to better facilities and part sources

I don't know if you remember the Andrews Sisters but if you do then hum along with me as I sing:

"Yes, we have no local salvage companies

We have no local salvage companies - todayyyy."

Not here....no industry....and a very rusty environment.

Solar Eagle posted a link earlier and when I (finally) found as good wifi source, I got it to work for me. It resulted in a quote from one of the Chinese companies. I can change all of the pistons and rings from them for significantly less than the last available price of 'unavailable' parts from the US manufacturer. I can buy new con rods and bearings too. Again for cheap. Weights will match among the new parts - so I can change them all- at these prices.

This seems like the way to go.

Thanks for the idea.... but a part of the charm of this place is that they lack much detritus from industry -such as wrecking yards.

It's bad when your predicament has a theme song.

The chinese price....check if its FOB or CIF and find out in advance what your import duties will be....

2.3L Mitsubishi Diesel:

Did the .pdf arrive in full?

If not, you may need to give me an email that allows larger files.....

Yup, in full. We are two weeks from date of order and still no tracking number. However, the beer here IS sweet. Thanks again for that. Updates will flow when I find a good connection. On the ball in Hatchet Bay, Eleuthera, Bahamas

Two weeks and not even a tracking number let alone the ordered bits...I suppose there was absolutely no delay debiting your bank account.

Drink the beer slowly or you might have to swim home broke......

I am pleased for you, especially about the beer of course!!!

Update: CR4 members rescued our cruise!!!!

We have 100 engine hours on the K4D since installing new pistons, rings, valve seals and big end bearings back at Eleuthera. The assistance of all respondents was greatly appreciated and made the rebuild possible. Special mentions to Solar Eagle and Andy Germany for MVP awards.

Other cruisers kept telling me to simply call a Tow/rescue boat as we approach Florida.....

Instead we got to inhabit a tropical island during (first) the mango season, and (next) the pineapple season. ....and fellow cruisers kept sending their condolences...????? We have yet to understand why they would do that.

Local assistance was more in the way of 'moral support' although the elderly retiree who repairs lawnmowers in his outdoor shop gave me the use of his bench and vice.

The scarcity of resources goes even to finding enough suitable scrap steel to fabricate a wrist pin press. Scrap cars are loaded aboard fishing boats and dropped over the side. Other metal scrap is palletized and sent to a central collection point off-island on a frequent basis.

This boat is a work in progress (aren't they all?) rescued from dormitory duty on a tropical island where she had lain at dockside for 8 years. The entry price was very low and she is giving us lots of 'fun'.

Thanks everyone!!

We are only too glad to be of service.

Also thanks for the update, it looks like you did a TOP good job, in spite of poor amenities!

100 hours is a really good test!! Well done.