Gases for MIG Welding

"For the purpose of cost cutting organisations are shifting from argon to Co2 , which i feel is bad for green house effect (resulting in global warming)."

Why do you feel the use of CO2 as a substitute for Ar is going to have any effect on global warming one way or the other?

References? Research Papers? Chicken Little syndrome?

If it involves CO2 in any way it must be bad for the environment. Don't Drink COKE!

Don't Drink COKE!

Or beer!!

Don't bake bread!!!

Don't drive a car!!!!

Don't keep livestock!!!!!

Don't use aeroplanes!!!!!!

Don't breathe out!!!!!!!

Stirling said it "Stop Drinking Coke"

Can I add : " Walk/Byke to work-not drive in Gasoline/Diesel Cars/Buses/Planes"

"Refuse to Heat your home in winter- no gas,no Oil,no coke,no logs"

" Do not buy Electric Power from companies who buy fromThermal Stations"

Now let's analyze his 'Feel Bad' factor:

• How did you get Argon in the first place ? Air Liquifaction using thermal power?
• How do we get CO2 supply?

Go deeper-and you may end up saying" I feel good - we are changing over to CO2"

By the way- TIG will remain mostly Ar .MIG/MAG mostly CO2/N2/H2O-unless you go for cored wire.

Somebody needs to quantify-even inspired guesses- how many tons a day CO2 used by MIG/MAGgers vs COKE/PEPSI drinkers vs Farters

I was under the impression that the gas produced by the breaking down of the food and beer in digestion, Fart production, was methane gas. Highly flammable and also produced in great quantity by the cows that produce both the milk we drink or give to our children and the beef that makes up most of the fast food, aside from chicken which also seems to produce a large quantity of methane.

Maybe our best effort would be not to eat or drink anything that would produce this toxic gas. No beer, hard boiled eggs, etc.

Without CO2 would we have the oxygen production from photosynthesis by trees and all green living vegetation? Doesn't the CO2 for welding come from the liquefaction of air also. So we are just taking air breaking it apart then returning it to the atmosphere when we weld with it.

It also contains ammonia and hydrogen sulphide. Combine these two together and one gets ammonium sulphide, the active ingredient in the 'stink bomb', available over-the-counter to any interested schoolchild...

Been there, done it....

the argon co2 mix in mig gas is specially formulated. pure argon doesn't work too well for mig, though it is fine for Tig. some mixes use nitrogen or helium (helium tends to blow away too quick). any inerty gas will do although some help the weld and others tend to change the metal structure. The CO2 is used to stabilize the arc with mig as the wire feed is seldom spot on nor even in speed.

welding guides will give you a good idea of which gas is best.

The CO2 is drawn from the separation of other gasses from the air and as a by-product from oil refineries. It would have gone into the atmosphere regardless to the fact that it is used in welding. It is such a small factor as to be a non impact.

I don't believe our ability to generate CO2 is having any appreciable effect on global warming anyhow.

hI again,

To the best what i am aware of , Co2 is specifically MS suitable gas for Metal Inert Gas technology of welding [MIG] and Argon is used for Tungsten Inert Gas [TIG - suitable for Stainless Steel procedure] you can and you have to use these specified gases for this process. I doubt there could be any other gases available substituting them.Though in the Stainless Steel process, as a cost cutting factor the mixture is permissible, in different ratios but for MS, using argon with Co2, is purely waste, as Argon hardly would give in any cost savings.

Thanks

CO2 & other so-called GHG have little to no effect on Global Warming- this is a scientific fact- the tragedy is that so many believe what has been proposed by vested govt interests & vastly over stated by sensationalist media- anyone can prove mathematically that it is all hoopla.

I think the welding CO2 issue, as it affects global warming, is a non-issue and is sufficently addressed in other replies. So, let's get to the welding issue. I have to assume that you are using solid MIG wire such as E70S3 or E70S6 and not a flux-cored wire. I am also assuming that you are welding mild carbon steel such as A36 in thicknesses of 1/4 inch or less. Therefore, if you want cheap and dirty welds with lots of splatter using the short-arc technique, use straight CO2 with E70S3 wire. If you want clean, neat welds, use a mix of 92% Argon and 8% CO2 with E70S6 wire using the spray-arc technique. That's it in a nutshell. Of course, your welding engineer should be developing the weld process for the particular joints to be welded, specifing all the parameters, the welding wire and shielding gas, and qualifying your welders.

CO2 is a greenhouse gas. So is water vapor. Global warming IS a fact, however, real scientists are predicting an increase of only 1 or 2 degrees F in the next century. Politicians are predicting calamity so they can gain control over our lives.

It will NOT melt the polar ice caps, but will result in slightly longer growing seasons and improved crop yields. Man's contribution to global warming is quite small, and more is due to clearing of land than to greenhouse gases. Suggest you read a book called "Satanic Gases".

The OP was seeking information as to which was a better shielding gas for MIG welding and had a feeling that CO2 usage was or might be bad).

Admitedly the whole issue of Green House Gases amd Global Warming is a Hot Button Issue more emotional than proven scientific fact, "Satanic Gases," not withstanding.

Posting as "Guest" lends little if any credibility to your assertions.

Sorry, Stan, I didn't intend to post annonomously. I thought my browser was set to log me in automatically.

The original poster, gpschahil, was concerned about greenhouse gases. The book, "Satanic Gases" actually debunks the theory of manmade global warming. A small natural increase in global temperatures is most definitely predicted, even by critics. This warming is expected to be less than 2 degrees C. If this has any significant effect on human life, it will be to make it better. Increased CO2 has been shown to improve plant growth measureably, and will improve crop production.

May I suggest that you did as I did and actually read up on the subject?

First of all, the CO2 is generated from the atmosphere so you are not creating more. Second, using pure CO2 will result in poor cosmetic weld quality and higher smoke generation.

I wouls suggest a blend of 60/40 CO2/Argon or 75/25 CO2/Argon as the better solution.

I have been in the industry for 20 years and I am a welding engineer. It really boggles my mind when these decisions are made purely from a cost standpoint. The weld clean up will cost more with pure CO2 results. Spatter will be an issue as well as the use of anti-spatter sprays. Reduce costs in one area and increase costs in another.

Stick with the blended gases. It really is the lower cost solution.

Discussion is following two lines

1) welding for engineers this is easier:

Ar is inert gas, CO2 is an active one.

In Welding courses they are teaching that with active gas you are doing what is more properly called MAG (Metal Active Gas) process, meaning that the gas is not only creating a protective atmosphere but it is also diluting into the melting bath of metal, increasing the temperature and the energy exchange during the weld formation, this is granting a better penetration at the edges and a faster movement for the torch (or the electrode) but a big spatter generation, a very bad final aspect, and often a certain quantity of defects and crack triggers in the welded line.

Cost is a compromise of many operations: what is saved in Gas cost, is lost on reworking an polishing.

So it has been clearly indicated by our colleagues Guest at consideration # 6 , or at # 9

2) global warming this is the tough question

I'm scared and a bit disappointed when I see good, expert technician denying it.

I think all of us have a memory of seasons twenty years (20 not 200) ago, so it is happening !

This is a real measurable, witnessed event.

What are the reasons : CO2 ?

Water vapour dispersion in the atmosphere ? (Because innocent water vapour is a green house gas ! see answers # 8 )

Industrial activities and heat dispersion in the atmosphere ? (believable or not our air conditioner is increasing the total global warming ! and if you do not understand why, it is better that we start back from thermodynamics)

What can be the remedy ? . . . But do we really want a remedy ? or do we expect the other people do it ? Certain nations that are "respecting" the Kyoto parameters, are doing it just buying the possibility to produce CO2 from undeveloped countries, is this a scientific approach ?

At the end it is not welding that is producing the global warming.

So the cheaper way to save money on the total process of the weld, could be asking a suggestion to welding wire supplier, he saw many different gases being used with its material. He is certainly interested to help his customer to get better results.

Apart from Argon and CO2, Mig welding is done using Helium, Nitrogen etc. Helium gives a wider bead and wide reinforcement. Helium is 10 times lighter than Argon and requires higher valumes making the weld costlier with it. Pure Nitrogen or with Argon is in use for welding copper as it gives greater heat input, but a coarser bead.

On the other hand CO2 besides being less expensive, gives sound weld deposits (deeper -broader penetration) with adequate mechanical properties even at higher speeds. Further transfer efficiency across the arc for element to element is much more with CO2, like C (50 to 230 %), Cr (90 to 95 % ), Mo ( 90 to 100 % ) etc. You can see some amount of C gets dissolve across the arc into base metal Carbon, thus increasing its UTS strength,

Another advantages is that, CO2 has more hot cracking resistance than Argon and low Hydrogen content. It results in more impact and tensile properties. With Argon, it has good response for welding out of way position welding.

During welding operation, when CO2 ( carbon and oxygen) is exposed to higher arcing temperature, CO2 is changed into oxygen and carbon monoxide in a reversible reaction. CO further disintegrates to Carbon ( dissolves in the weld metal) and Oxygen forming oxides with Mn , Si, etc. --- It is a chain reaction.

So the advantages are much more compared to its limitations. Hence, CO2 is not that much a contributory factor for the green house effect as far as welding is concerned.

Sridhar - welding technology centre - Chennai – India.

20 years, mini-ice ages last a century. Global warming is highly questionable against background events (remember at one point prior to the evolution of higher life, the entire planet froze over because of the global cooling effects of too much oxygen in the atmosphere). Also, the planet has been much warmer in the past prior to the industrialization associated with man kind. How do we know how warm the planet should get coming out of the last mini ice age only ending about 2 centuries ago. At one time England was warm enough to produce wine about 1500 years ago, then it cooled and grapes were not viable. The concern about global warming is some peoples limited ability to look at the large picture and see more than 20 years ago. Cycles of warming and cooling on large scales can last 1,000s of year with more frequent incremental changes within that period.

I do not understand, at least i do not completely understand why the globe is warming up.

At least we agree it is getting warmer. Why is it ?

I do not have well based scientific reason to give, but by instinct i got a feeling that a little or a big contribution to this process is due to human activities. We build dams that are diverting the tides, we went to the moon: why should we not be able to make a cloud bigger ?

Do not think of a single litre of CO2 from a small welding. Please, think of the big fires in the Amazonas, where we burnig large extensions of the forest, which was producing 02, to creat new fields for human use. These fires are burning money (good, costing and precious wood) to produce CO2, water vapour and heat (enormous quantities of warm air that are moving out of control). If you do not believe this can change the climate, please: try to fly crossing one of these big fires . . .

Men always changed their environment !

so it was and it is . . .

i'm not proposing to stop breathing, eating or farting, just i'm asking to be sincere.

The following question is: the total effect of this change is an advantage or a disvantage ?

once we accept the idea that we are contributing to warming effect, we should think if it can be an advantage to control the proces and for which developments.

Forget the Feel-bad-Co2 in Welding Gas---- it is miniscule!! But--

Do not sweep Global Warming under the Carpet --it IS REAL and it is NOW.

It is Dangerous for the existence of Polar Bear/Seal/Arctic life/rising Sea levels.

It's bad for the Hot and Humid Tropics. Man needs more cooling-so more Global W.

-- KATRINA/El Nino/ Tornadoes/Furious Typhoons and more disasters World over .

Floods in Rajasthan Desert, Dry Sind Province!!! In Mumbai &Kolkata. Assam washed out by rapid melting of Himalayan Snow.Vast areas in Bangladesh under water.

What is to be done?

1. Let Forest fires not happen.{"Accidents" can be avoided).
2. Let Timber Grow(protected by Laws) for next 50Years-we will review then.
3. Let bright brains convert all wasteful Timber Use to Bamboo. I showed U can.
4. Let the Dead be buried- not burnt in long inefficient open fires.
5. Let Agriculture only be Intensive Yielding ones -Rest thick Forests
6. Force Forest Cover to Real 50+%
7. Teach Greening/Biodegradability/Recyclability/Energy- efficiency to all students

Let CR4 members add more and more ways and means!

This is nonsense.

Serious researchers expect the average global temps to increase 1 - 2 degrees C. This is not enough to have any effect on the polar regions because they are so far below freezing

El Nino has nothing to do with global warming. It has been documented for centuries, long before the alledged manmade global warming.

Timber is a crop, just like corn. Grasses are more efficient than trees to reduce CO2.

Increased CO2 promotes growth of vegatation. It really doesn't hurt anything. CO2 levels were 10 times what they currently are when dinosaurs lived. Temps weren't much higher than they are now.

No cremation? You've got to be kidding!

Recycling is NOT very efficient in many cases. It is a political theory that doesn't make much sense economically.

Guest post 12: the shielding gases used in welding are simple- the supposed enhanced greenhouse gas effect is nothing more than theory- yes, we have differing climate than we remember from 20 years ago- but climate always has differed & HAS TO DIFFER as we are part of a dynamic system- there are many identified reasons why what we perceive happening is happening- BUT GREENHOUSE GASES are not one of them- BUT the Govts who are promoting it are, & will make a LOT of money out of it!. I just hate lies- at first I believed, but further investigation shows to me that the GHG THEORY IS FALSE!. If you want to find mathematical proof, go to Open2net, discussions, Science& technology- a post by A.E.Banner.

To solve our CO2 problem, I suggest everyone stop breathing for a day.

Pineapple

In light of the comments posted re global warming you might also consider how much CO2 would you be using vs the amount already existing in the atmosphere.

Love your statement about the 4 kinds of people. Makes me think of our being able to converse over the internet thanks to Al Gore