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Redesigning windmills to use screw pumps

07/19/2007 3:45 PM

Would it be possible to use a screw pump to extract water from a well with depth of -let's say- 30 metres?

Maybe with conic gears to change the axis of rotation and a screw pump I can get another way to work. This is, the turbine moves the first and horizontal gear, this gear moves the vertical conic gear, the conic gear moves the shaft that connects with the screw pump, the screw pump pumps the water up. It is basically the old concept of the Archimedes screw, but I feel kind of lost to calculate the requirements and conditions.

I am trying to find a more reliable design for windmills and I think that would be a good idea, but I can't find any info on screwpumps to check if the torque and speed I get are enough to be operative. Do I just calculate it like any other screw?

There is also the problem of a 40 metres shaft rotating to move the screw, but I am not considering that problem yet.

Can you suggest me another alternative to change the design of the water pumping windmills?

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#1

Re: Redesigning windmills to use screw pumps

07/19/2007 4:43 PM

Yes we did it in 1967. We used an adapted differential drive (rear wheel drive vehicles), One problem we had was the high starting torque required by screw pumps.

The pump did not deliver at low wind speeds.

Google for Southx.co.za (Southern Cross - South Africa)

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Redesigning windmills to use screw pumps

07/19/2007 5:04 PM

Hi Hendrik

I already knew your company. I have read all your manual. Congratulations, it is great. However, you didn't mention any alternative design, just the old reciprocal (aka. Thunder, aka. American) design.

Have you got any more information?

Most important. What kind of screw pump did you use? I can't find any manufacturer making something suitable and I have no clear idea of how to design a screw pump, maybe a slight idea, but not much more than that.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Redesigning windmills to use screw pumps

07/19/2007 5:25 PM

I left the company in about 1969. I am not really in touch with them anymore.

At That stage we used a MONO screw pump. (google for them)

If you can succeed in designing a variable speed drive It would be great.

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Redesigning windmills to use screw pumps

07/19/2007 7:23 PM

I will keep the variable speed drive in mind.

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#5

Re: Redesigning windmills to use screw pumps

07/20/2007 12:06 AM

"Would it be possible to use a screw pump to extract water from a well with depth of -let's say- 30 metres?"

Not with an Archimedes screw. It requires a volume of air in every turn which requires that it be on an incline, not vertical as in a deep drill well hole. Almost every farm in the mid-west of the US had a windmill to pump water for livestock and domestic uses during the last centure. The used a vertical lift rod to operate the pump. Never saw the pump proper but it had to have an intake chamber, and check valves. You might find details via a web search. Search for: "Farm Windmill Pump Jack," "Farm Windmill Water Pump," and similar terms. More information than you will need.

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#8
In reply to #5

Re: Redesigning windmills to use screw pumps

07/20/2007 9:28 AM

Yes, I know it is impossible to do it with an Archimedes screw. However, a modern twin screw pump or a mono screw pump cold be a solution. I haven't considered other kinds of pumps because they occupy too much space (while the standard well is about 20 cms wide) and because the final flow with something like a gear pump doesn't seem natural to me.

I am very familiar with the standard farm windmill. I have already installed two and I have another one in the garage wich is the model I am using. I am trying to find a new design because the pumprod getting loose and the stress on the structure of the windmill are consequence of the linear action of the pumprod, because it uses a piston pump.

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#6

Re: Redesigning windmills to use screw pumps

07/20/2007 12:58 AM

How are you going to transfer the horizontal wind mill shaft rotation to a vertical shaft? If you just use a bevel gear the reaction torque would tend to swing the wind turbine away from the wind; that is assuming that you are using a wind vane to orient the turbine as in the old American wind mill. Another point is that a screw pump as suggested by Archemedis is OK for lifting water from a river on to fields on the bank, but not for lifting water out of a well.

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Redesigning windmills to use screw pumps

07/20/2007 9:20 AM

"How are you going to transfer the horizontal wind mill shaft rotation to a vertical shaft?"

The standard farm windmill included a gear box/transmission which took care of those minor details. A wind vane kept the fan facing into the wind or could be turned 90 deg. (from the ground by a lever) to lock the fan from rotating.

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#10
In reply to #7

Re: Redesigning windmills to use screw pumps

07/21/2007 1:04 AM

In all the wind pumps I have seen the turbine shaft rotation is never translated into the rotation of a vertical shaft. There is a crank right at the vertical axis of rotation of the machine, and it drives a vertical connecting rod which is coupled to the pump piston working in a vertical cylinder. the piston being free to rotate about the vertical axis does not interfere with the mechanism which automatically points the turbine axis into the wind. However if you try to couple the horizontal wind turbine shaft to a vertical propellor shaft via a bevel gear to transmit the power down to the ground level, the torque on it will certainly cause the turbine to veer away from the wind direction in spite of the wind vane trying to hold it into the wind.

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Redesigning windmills to use screw pumps

07/22/2007 1:30 AM

I can't imagine that, as action and reaction are applied on the same body. What you say sounds to me like trying to move a boat pointing a fan to its sails, from inside the boat. Do you get what I mean? Let's say I use a cylindric pinion and crown. Sure, there is a torque applied on the crown, but there is and opposite and equal torque on the pinion.

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#14
In reply to #11

Re: Redesigning windmills to use screw pumps

07/23/2007 12:12 AM

I think we are saying the same thing. If you try to get the horizontal wind turbine shaft which is on a frame which is free to rotate about a vertical axis to rotate a vertical shaft, the reaction to the torque on the vertical shaft would tend to veer the turbine axis away from the direction in which the wind vane is trying to orient it.

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Redesigning windmills to use screw pumps

07/23/2007 4:28 PM

Thanks, you are right, that's something to consider. I know now because I dreamed about that.

Yes, I need a shrink.

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#9

Re: Redesigning windmills to use screw pumps

07/20/2007 10:08 AM

on a smaller project I was successful in transmitting the windmill energy and it's shaft rotation using a hydraulic pump and motor, our reason was the windmill could not be located over the well and find enough wind. This also removed any coupling issues we had. Hope this helps

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#12
In reply to #9

Re: Redesigning windmills to use screw pumps

07/22/2007 1:38 AM

Thanks a lot. I will study that possibility too.

The same idea came to me while doing a fluid circuit diagram of the system, but I made it away because it seemed to difficult. Good to know that it works.

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#13

Re: Redesigning windmills to use screw pumps

07/22/2007 10:55 AM

What about a slight spin or twist (pun intended) on this.?

I have a firm belief in the philosophy that 'old' technology used with modern concepts and technologies is highly desirable, yet under-utilized. Lets use the windmill to keep a charge on small concealed battery bank. A DC powered pump pumps water as needed. A bypass could even allow the conventional pumping of water as we have here, dotting the landscape.

Growing up in Texas these mills always caught my eye. I am interested in making an independent homestead free from 'the grid' yet cost effective and discreet. That is; more traditional in appearance.

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#18
In reply to #13

Re: Redesigning windmills to use screw pumps

10/10/2007 7:12 PM

C_Rummel3 declared, I am interested in making an independent homestead free from 'the grid' yet cost effective and discreet.

azonecat directs C_Rummel3 attention to TurbexRotary Windmills in South Africa ... Turbex will pay freight to Houston. Electric & Water in 1 pkg. Check out the system efficiency. And the looks ain't all bad. azonecat plodding ever onward thru the fog of life knowing not what to expect next out in Beautiful Downtown SVAZ.

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#16

Re: Redesigning windmills to use screw pumps

07/30/2007 7:01 AM

The conversion losses might be a bit high, depends how much time the pump doesn't need to run while the wind blows - if you get my meaning.

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#17

Re: Redesigning windmills to use screw pumps

10/10/2007 6:48 PM

gussosa asked: Would it be possible to use a screw pump to extract water from a well with depth of -let's say- 30 metres?

old azonecat out in Beautiful SunnySoutheastern Arizona USA suggest that gussosa wants to use rotary motion to drive a rotary pump vs installing a reciprocating motion pump. If so, then may I suggest googling TurbexRotary Wind Turbine ... htp://www.turbex.co.za/Competition.htm ... the Turbex Wind Turbine uses the rotary principle to pump water instead of the traditional reciprocating (up-and-down) pumping method. Notably other wind powered systems find it difficult to match the Turbex Rotary performance under the same conditions. Turbex Rotarycan handle 300 meters. Turbexis in South Africa. Turbex Rotary ought to resolve the problem, hopefully. Keep smiling ... makes people wonder what you know they don't ..... Life is sooooooooo interesting ... if you don't take it serious .... In the meantime it is onward thru the fog of life never knowing what is next ...... azonecat wishes the best to all

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Anonymous Poster (1); azonecat (2); gussosa (6); Hendrik (2); Stirling Stan (2); TexasCharley (1); Wrenched (1); Yanthram (3)

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