Previous in Forum: Nonscratch Clear Material   Next in Forum: How to Remove Xylene From Methanol
Close
Close
Close
Page 1 of 2: « First 1 2 Next > Last »
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42290
Good Answers: 1662

Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/08/2015 10:29 PM

OK, Give it your best shot.

GMOs are good for you and global warming is a hoax.

Monsanto's migraine: The biotech giant is facing one fiasco after another

Congress is your friend.

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Guru
New Zealand - Member - Kiwi Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 8778
Good Answers: 376
#1

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/08/2015 11:08 PM

the main ingredient in Monsanto's popular weedkiller Roundup - is "probably carcinogenic to humans."

Great, I use Roundup myself. Who would have thought something that would kill difficult-to-kill weeds could potentially kill people. Now what the heck am I supposed to use in my salad dressing now.

__________________
jack of all trades
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42290
Good Answers: 1662
#2
In reply to #1

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/08/2015 11:11 PM

A hoe?

Register to Reply
2
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1064
Good Answers: 92
#3
In reply to #2

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/08/2015 11:15 PM

If you were actually able to trace both back to the introduction of Roundup, I would bet money that more people have been killed with hoes than with Roundup.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
5
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42290
Good Answers: 1662
#5
In reply to #3

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/08/2015 11:30 PM

Back? Back? You have no valid reason to look back.

How about we look forward to the implications for the next 10 generations now that Monsanto has decided to play God with genetic modification of the flora for corporate/personal gain?

No good will come from this, except for politicians, lobbyists, lawyers, and Monsanto.

Guys like you just don't get it.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1064
Good Answers: 92
#8
In reply to #5

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/08/2015 11:51 PM

No, not don't get it.

I don't condone Monsanto's antics at all, and there are a lot more of them than just this; the point is many innocuous things can actually be quite deadly when misapplied. You are more than welcome to rant at them all you want, but I personally do have reasons to look back at things- otherwise you become proof that "the only thing we learn from history is that we don't learn from history".

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42290
Good Answers: 1662
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/09/2015 12:01 AM

There is no historical perspective for genetic alteration of biological organisms.

Look back all you want. Don't let the doorknob hit you in the a*s as you back up.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 3)
6
Guru
Engineering Fields - Optical Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Member Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - Member

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Trantor
Posts: 5363
Good Answers: 646
#18
In reply to #9

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/09/2015 2:29 AM

You can't exactly mean what you've said here. Mankind has been cultivating wheat, i.e., genetically modifying it via cross breeding different species and selecting certain cultivars for various advantages, for thousands of years. There are now around 20 species of wheat grown in the world, all of which came from a few grasses that farmers at the dawn of history began to cultivate and grow.

Monsanto is now doing in the lab, in a short time span, what farmers have been doing in the fields for hundreds, even thousands, of years.

The use of genetically modified crops by farmers has grown dramatically over the past decade. GM crops have been a boon to starving 3rd world countries, allowing them to plant crops that are resistant to certain pests and diseases, thus boosting their harvest in terms of usable crop tonnage.

From what I've read Monsanto has engaged in practices that are unethical. I'm not giving them a pass. But neither am I going to get caught up in the demagoguery condemning GM crops. When the hype starts my BS meter hits the red zone.

__________________
Whiskey, women -- and astrophysics. Because sometimes a problem can't be solved with just whiskey and women.
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 6)
4
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: East Texas
Posts: 1380
Good Answers: 31
#19
In reply to #18

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/09/2015 2:55 AM

"Monsanto is now doing in the lab, in a short time span, what farmers have been doing in the fields for hundreds, even thousands, of years."

To suggest that laboratory based genetic modification mimics or is similar to selective breeding seems to be a bit of a stretch.

When pest resistance includes the introduction of genetic traits across species we enter new ground; as is the case of introducing neurotoxin producing genes to food plants.

Short term studies used to extrapolate long term human health effects have a very poor record in terms of accuracy.

__________________
"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." -- Michelangelo
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 4)
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Out of your mind! Not in sight!
Posts: 4425
Good Answers: 107
#20
In reply to #19

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/09/2015 3:40 AM

Please do not forget that nature itself has shown us the way of introducing new genes into plants and animals and does it on a regular bases. This process is not new and not unique to humans interference. The clue as always lays in how good do we understand of what we are doing and do we trust those that do it.

The stretch is only in our imagination!

__________________
Common Sense Dictates
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42290
Good Answers: 1662
#29
In reply to #18

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/09/2015 3:01 PM

I do exactly mean what I've said here.

As Gavilan rightly suggested, NATURAL evolution and NATURAL mutation are far different than genetic meddling in a laboratory.

The evidence is in and it is clear that Round Up and Round Up ready plants are not helping humanity.

Register to Reply
3
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7959
Good Answers: 284
#36
In reply to #29

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/10/2015 2:20 AM

You will need to define 'natural'.

You might want to wait to respond and look up horizontal gene transfer which has been going on for millions of years, transfering genes from bacteria to bacteria, fungus to animals, plant to plant, etc.

.

This isn't to suggest that round up isn't doing harm. It is just a reminder that people will often judge the validity of a position on the truth of the weakest reason given as support. You actually harm your case when you suggest this is completely uncharted territory with no similarity in non-human-tinkered nature.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42290
Good Answers: 1662
#55
In reply to #36

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/10/2015 1:56 PM

The "us" in the title refers to humans, not bacteria.

With notably few exceptions, horizontal gene transfer occurs in single cell organisms.

Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7959
Good Answers: 284
#62
In reply to #55

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/10/2015 7:12 PM

It isn't even constrained to transfer from a similar genus, nor similar order. In fact, HGT isn't restricted to even our broadest classifications. HGT spans kingdoms. Moreover, if you don't consider viruses to be alive, which is reasonable, then HGT isn't even confined strictly transfers.from one living thing to another.

At any rate, the qualitative judgement of whether the frequency of this phenomina constitutes something somewhat rare, or if constitutes many examples, is not relevant.

.

What is relevant, even if there were not hundreds.of examples is that there is indeed a nonanthropogenic example of this. Moreover it is not an isolated anomaly. This has been happening for millions of years and continues to happen even now.

.

That makes it unreasonable to state that this process has no known analogue in the 'natural world' and as such means it should be distrusted. There are lots of unnatural things that probably make your life expenrience much more agreeable, and I doubt you distrust those when theh are needed. But who mnows, I am just guessing. Perhaps when you get a headache you go outside to find a willow tree so that you can chew some bark instead kf swallowing aspirin or some NSAID.

.

I understand if you made the statement either unaware or forgetting about HGT. That is totally understandable. However, now that you have been made aware, it is time to retract the statement. I definitely does you know good to continue to assert the original claim is still somehow true. We all make errors. It is far better to admit the errors rather than having that dead cat hanging around your neck everywhere you go.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15106
Good Answers: 936
#65
In reply to #62

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/10/2015 9:36 PM

Meow

The only thing new with horizontal gene transfers (HGT) is that people are now steering some of these transfers a little while nature continues to do this in a random fashion. This or similar gene selection techniques might one day allow a chickensaurus . Remember the old mantra, "The only thing that is constant is change". We are evolving, too. What's wrong with trying to take some control along the way.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7959
Good Answers: 284
#69
In reply to #62

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/11/2015 2:20 AM

It amuses me that, 'We all make errors', is one of the last sentences in a comment riddled with typos (meow). I wish I could say I had done it intentionally to make the point.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15106
Good Answers: 936
#31
In reply to #18

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/09/2015 4:06 PM

Lets not forget the wide variety of radiation induced useful mutations.

Eventually something is going to kill us all. I just want it to be slow and tasty process.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Register to Reply
3
Power-User

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Caerdydd, Cymru
Posts: 155
Good Answers: 11
#39
In reply to #18

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/10/2015 3:57 AM

"GM crops have been a boon to starving 3rd world countries." Have to admit, I've seen little evidence of this and much evidence to the contrary. There's no profit in developing seeds that are sold in very poor countries, unless those seeds are patented, sold only by you, and do not produce fertile offspring.

The only seed financially worth developing for the third-world market is one that lasts only one generation and is paid for by a first-world donor. It's cheaper to send wheat to the developing world, which has the same one-cycle effect as a restricted GM crop but puts more of the money in the hand of the (usually American) wheat farmer. Or, of course someone could develop a /fertile/ seed that will grow in challenging conditions and /give/ it away which would benefit the relevant third world population, but reduce the demand for Western grown wheat and result in little or no profit for the GM developer. Which of those scenarios do you think Monsanto will pursue?

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Kansas, USA
Posts: 748
Good Answers: 64
#77
In reply to #39

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/12/2015 9:38 AM

People aren't necessarily saying that GMO seed is sent to those 3rd World Countries, but he bounty of what is produced in developed countries is shipped to those countries and those impoverished people benefit because of larger crops.

You can't give what you don't have and when you have a bumper crop it makes more available to those in need.

It's also good to remember that there are agendas and campaings being promoted against companies and when they get all kinds of media coverage the real issues get lost in the "firestorm and feeding frenzy." Monsanto may or may not be operating ethically, I don't know enough about their operation to make that determination. I do know that often people with liberal tendancies will choose to focus on certain people, companies or practices if it advances their agenda, i.e. global warming, free enterprise, capitalism, etc.

__________________
One of the greatest discoveries a man makes, one of his great surprises, is to find he can do what he was afraid he couldn't do. Ford, Henry
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7959
Good Answers: 284
#90
In reply to #77

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/12/2015 12:19 PM

You've only noticed that among people with liberal tendencies? Do you think it is well correlated?

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Kansas, USA
Posts: 748
Good Answers: 64
#91
In reply to #90

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/12/2015 12:36 PM

No, you're correct. "Stupid" isn't just reserved for the libs. Stupid is sticky and can get all over anyone if they hang around the wrong kind of thinking.

It just that it seems that the libs are more prone to denigrate industries and corporations because they "make money", are selfish, are totally uncaring for the environment, etc. It would be wrong to say that there aren't corps. like that, but to paint them all with that broad brush is disengenuious.

__________________
One of the greatest discoveries a man makes, one of his great surprises, is to find he can do what he was afraid he couldn't do. Ford, Henry
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15106
Good Answers: 936
#92
In reply to #91

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/12/2015 12:46 PM

It is just as equally wrong to paint all corporations as money loving monsters that care nothing about their employees and neighbors. To argue a point it is sometimes acceptable to make hyperbolic exaggerations but one should make it clear that this is just to make a point in an argument.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7959
Good Answers: 284
#96
In reply to #91

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/12/2015 2:29 PM

That's an admirable character trait you've got; being able to reconsider something you've already and then make improvements.

.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Lost Wages Nevada
Posts: 1578
Good Answers: 54
#79
In reply to #39

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/12/2015 10:03 AM

Maybe Monsanto is using these third world countries as human lab rat colonies. Waiting to see if they start growing an extra eyeball or other appendage?

__________________
Though it does seem he frequently has a Swiss Army knife or Leatherman and a roll of duct tape with him.
Register to Reply
2
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 930
Good Answers: 31
#42
In reply to #18

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/10/2015 9:11 AM

I cannot fathom the lack of knowledge of selective breeding v/s blasting a foreign gene into a species as is GMO alterations. Cross breeding is far less harmless than is selective breeding to accent a specific trait or feature. Hybrid can offer some resistance to some blights but it will not introduce into that plant or animal a chemical poison that has been manufactured in a chemical facility.

We can look at horses or cattle for example, draft horse to thoroughbred , beef bovine v/s dairy breed. From my experience and study I have never found a health danger or a species danger in hybrid animals or plants on the other hand if you create a seed that produces it's own bug killer as in the GMO corn now in use how can a person of reasonable intelligence not conclude that eating that corn will not provide a serving of bug killer in your food. The evidence is much stronger than strong against GMO. 2/3 of Europe has banned them for human consumption based on these studies.

Unfortunately North America political apparatus is bought and paid for by the GMO companies and who suffers? Every scientist that has performed unbiased research has found dangers in GMO and many have been banned from their work place by the corrupt powers in authority. I suggest you and others perform some basic research into this topic before you consume any GMO organism. YOU ARE WHAT YOU EAT!

__________________
The fine line between cuddling and holding one down to prevent escape must be learned
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7959
Good Answers: 284
#53
In reply to #42

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/10/2015 1:36 PM

I have to agree with the conclusion that the problem is in the ability of large corporations to influence the governing process. We are neither free enough for markets to be efficient, nor sufficiently dominated.to have any hope of a benevolent dictator (not a worthwhile goal anyway). The resulting lack of real consequence for damaging activities becomes more and more problematic with time.

..

While I support one of the conclusions, much of the remainder is deeply flawed.

It js inconsistent, at best, to remark about general lack of knowledge concerning selective breeding and follow that with a claim that extensive familiarity with breeding programs has.not.indicated.any 'health danger' or 'species danger' with hybrid animals.

If you haven't noticed a real threat to health of species with hybrid animals, you haven't been paying attention.

There are numerous hybrid.combinations which are 100% fatal..no live births result. I'd say that is a risk to health, at the very least.

Numerous hybrid combinations produce sterile offspring. The mule is a good example. That is a fairly unambiguous health and species risk.

The introduction of new traits, whether through selection or breeding, is in its very nature a.risk. It is a risk of not being viable. If viable it is a risk to itself of not competing well. If it competes too well, it is a risk to the current specied from which it came, and to the species it.competes with.

.

Look ul HGT, horizontal gene transfer, before making more claims about inserting genes being unnatural, with no biological equivalent.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South of Minot North Dakota
Posts: 8378
Good Answers: 774
#30
In reply to #9

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/09/2015 4:06 PM

"There is no historical perspective for genetic alteration of biological organisms."

Yes exactly and the poodle and chihuahua sprang forth from something other than generations of selective breeding of wild dogs and other non domesticated canine species.

Seriously lyn how exactly did the term 'domesticated' get added to the former wild beasts and plants we have been selectively modified to meet our needs better for how many thousands of years now?

Genetic engineering in one form or another is what we humans have been specializing in to make our live easier since the day we figured out how sex works.

The only difference is now we use a microscope and manipulation of DNA to get exactly what we want over the long slow often times multi generational trial and error guess work of selective breeding which is well known by those who work with it for amplifying as many bad traits as it does good.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42290
Good Answers: 1662
#32
In reply to #30

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/09/2015 4:14 PM

"how exactly did the term 'domesticated' get added to the former wild beasts and plants we have been selectively modified to meet our needs better for how many thousands of years now?"

These plants weren't "selectively" modified in a laboratory with instantaneous results as is now being done.

These happened over many generations, with selective breeding and not genetic manipulation. The bad species either did not survive or were killed by the breeder.

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15106
Good Answers: 936
#33
In reply to #32

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/09/2015 4:45 PM

We are just using a new steering mechanism of what nature already does. We are just speeding up a natural process that includes both positive and negative effects. Mother nature produced small pox, malaria, rag weed, kudzu and poison ivy. Then there are the ugly members of the animal kingdom; leeches, ring worms, fleas, ticks, etc. It's not all care bears, rainbows and unicorns out there.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: North West England
Posts: 1170
Good Answers: 152
#40
In reply to #9

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/10/2015 5:11 AM

Actually there is a historical perspective, in evolution. The mutations that did not work well became extinct.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42290
Good Answers: 1662
#44
In reply to #40

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/10/2015 10:29 AM

Evolution is not the same as artificial, human manipulation.
As I said in #32:

"These happened over many generations, with selective breeding and not genetic manipulation. The bad species either did not survive or were killed by the breeder."

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: City of Light
Posts: 3945
Good Answers: 182
#45
In reply to #44

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/10/2015 11:15 AM

It is a very interesting discussion from many points of view.

I would like to put a simple question:

How many from the "specialists" active at this discussion have a at least good knowledge of genetics or the other discussed subjects?

With respect to CO2 what do you do with CH4 which has a much higher effect and is produced in HUGE quantities by cows and termites? Why is it not mentioned ?

Why should selective breeding which is a change in the genetics be different ? Only because it takes a longer time? Whichever is the way an heritage has been changed it remains only if it is stable i.e. accepted by the environmental conditions (in the broadest meaning of the word).

This does not mean that I am convinced that all which has been done is correct and has to be accepted or tolerated but I have the feeling that arguments are not always the scientific ones.

Measurements for a statistic analysis of earth temperature evolution are available only for a quite short period (one will say that the ice at the south pole gives indications aver thousands of years but those do not say that temperature was always low). I took a couple of years ago data from a series of sources - considered as reliable - and made a statistical attempt to obtain a prevision. Results were interesting since according to the accepted approximation (linear, parabolic 2nd degree or 3rd degree) the temperature rise in 10 years could have been between 2 and 50°C. I am asking myself which is the marvelous approach able to predict with the low uncertainty claimed by the fighters how high the temperature will be in 10 or 20 years when they cannot predict for a much shorter range. I do not say that warming is not real but history gives informations about alternating warm and cold periods all over the centuries.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42290
Good Answers: 1662
#46
In reply to #45

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/10/2015 12:29 PM

CR4 - The
Engineer's Place for News and Discussion®
I don't believe that any special qualifications are required to have a discussion.

I, and most here, are not climate, nor chemistry specialists.

Your statement that you "made a statistical attempt to obtain a prevision" is all well and good, as long as we all realize that you present no data, just an opinion.

I agree with you emphatically that the earth warms and cools, and has for millions of years, based on the records available to us.

I also agree that real weather data has been collected for a very short period of time.

The recording of weather data and the burning of fossil fuel had their beginnings about the same time.

That said, I have a distaste for any one who insists that burning fossil fuels does not pollute the atmosphere and contribute to very many health problems.

I cannot say that CO2 absolutely causes (or even contributes significantly to) global warming any more than you can say that it does not.

Maybe in another 100 years those who are still alive will know the answer.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: City of Light
Posts: 3945
Good Answers: 182
#57
In reply to #46

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/10/2015 3:37 PM

I am NOT the only one to present "opinions", dont' you think ?

If you do not believe what I say this is your good right.

At least I tried not only to believe what other say I tried to build up my own mind.

What do you think about the fact that nobody mentions the methan ?

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42290
Good Answers: 1662
#58
In reply to #57

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/10/2015 4:12 PM

No, most all of the information presented here is an opinion.

Regarding methane, part of the reason may be that it's atmospheric half life is 8 years vs 100 for CO2.

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#59
In reply to #58

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/10/2015 4:41 PM

What? CR4 doesn't represent scientific proof?
Despite the fact that I'm drinking red wine and Tequila; wine from the plastic sippy cup; Tequila from the ceramic Santa Clause coffee cup... I'm quite disappointed with your recent defriending me on FB. My "real" FB friends simply block my every utterance.
I'm willing to give you a second chance. You talked bad about sheriff Joe, and I may have become agitated.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#60
In reply to #59

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/10/2015 4:57 PM
__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#61
In reply to #60

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/10/2015 5:04 PM
__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Power-User

Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 482
#74
In reply to #59

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/12/2015 12:53 AM
__________________
The doctor said "just one post or reply aday in CR4, take it or leave it". I said, "what does that mean?"
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: City of Light
Posts: 3945
Good Answers: 182
#70
In reply to #58

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/11/2015 2:20 AM

In 3 sources I found 3 values and much more a source mentioned in Wikipedia gives as source...Wikipedia!

The half life may be 7 or 9.6 years but the nuisance factor oscillates according to those sources between 86x and 20x more than CO2.

According to one of the sources (you may find same googling "methane in the atmosphere") the contend of methane in the atmosphere grew more than CO2 during last centuries. Which way you compute even if the new generation of the gas is neglected its effect is not to be disconsidered.

The notion "half live" implies an exponential law as G(t)= G(0)* exp(- t/T) with T the reference time = 1.44 half time ( exp(-t/T)=0.5). The effect over a period is the integral of this function. It will be T*G(0)*K where K is the nuisance effect proportional to the active amount at every moment. We consider same mass of both substances at a moment and integrate over 100 years then we get as result at the best 20*11.5=230 for methane and 1*100=100 for CO2. Which one seems to be more dangerous ?

Interesting No?

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - EE from the the Wilds of Pa.

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: middle of nowhere, Pennsylvania
Posts: 2603
Good Answers: 63
#98
In reply to #5

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/12/2015 2:39 PM

Maybe I'm dense, but, I don't see a connection between an artificially produced chemical, and the alterations of some naturally occurring genes, other than the corporate source. We have lived with genetic changes for as long as we've been on the earth. You can't equate the cancer causing effects of a man made chemical to a genetic mutation and conclude from that that the mutation must also be dangerous. On a positive type comparison to your reasoning, let's say corporation A makes a very good DVD player, therefore we can conclude if they own a bakery as a subsidiary, they will also make a very good cookie. Not too big a stretch these days to assume that.

Yes the chemicals are proven very harmful, in general, but where the heck is any proof of problems with genetic alterations? Been around for 40 years now.

__________________
Remember when reading my post: (-1)^½ m (2)^½
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Where the sun sets on OZ
Posts: 1353
Good Answers: 27
#37
In reply to #3

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/10/2015 2:33 AM

hoes kill? Who would'a thunk it?

Syphilis sores. Image from CDC.

Hoes

hoes

__________________
Where's the KaBoom? There should be a KaBoom!
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
New Zealand - Member - Kiwi Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 8778
Good Answers: 376
#4
In reply to #2

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/08/2015 11:23 PM

How do I fit the hoe in the salad dressing bottle?

__________________
jack of all trades
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42290
Good Answers: 1662
#6
In reply to #4

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/08/2015 11:33 PM

You get a smaller, genetically modified salad hoe.

You will have to give it back to Monsanto after you use it to stir the salad.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Out of your mind! Not in sight!
Posts: 4425
Good Answers: 107
#7
In reply to #4

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/08/2015 11:34 PM

Use bigger bottle or an angle grinder!

__________________
Common Sense Dictates
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Eastern Arizona mountains on Route 666 about a mile from God's country
Posts: 1676
Good Answers: 122
#25
In reply to #2

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/09/2015 9:52 AM

I don't think she will fit in the bowl.

__________________
They said; "Brain size?" I heard; "Train size?" so I said: "I'll take a small one, thank you."
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Out of your mind! Not in sight!
Posts: 4425
Good Answers: 107
#10

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/09/2015 12:08 AM

1. GMO

We will not get away from this technology once it is developed there will be people to favour it one way or the other. The only way we can handle this is to take control of the self interest of those that make money with it. The prove of damage should result in similar attention that we have today on nuclear technology. And yes I am aware that not all have the same attention there.

2. GW

The GW hoax should be self evident for all that can still apply some old school mathematics and knowledge. What we are getting told is that there is a statistical increase of the trend of temperatures measured on Earth. Lets take it as what it is: it is a statistical exercise. The calculated change is less than the resolution that some of the temperature sensors are able to provide. But then who really seriously thinks that the up and downs of temperatures over a day and over the seasons is less important for plants, live, weather and what else than a statistical increase in trend? Remember there is temperature changes of over 40 deg C in deserts and still 8 deg C (currently in Middle Europe) over a day of temperature change. Staying with the example of Middle Europe over a month the deviation for the last 30 days was 24 deg C. Can you see where this is going?
The last word on this is this: The GW hoax comes with a claim that CO2 is the reason for GW. It is nicely bundled up with all the other detrimental effects of the so worrisome CO2. Yes I am speaking of ocean acidification. Now there is an easy answer to that. School knowledge is being used to make the claim and school knowledge will debunk it: CO2 when dissolved forms a light acid and increase in CO2 in the atmosphere will mean that more C02 is dissolved in the ocean and voila we have an acidification - so the claim goes.
Because there is also a claim of warming which also affects our ocean water we are doomed.

We are doomed until you go back to your school knowledge or make a little experiment. Warm water holds less CO2. Yes heat your soft drink and beware the sparkling. Warm water will not hold more C02. Got this?

If you know put the things together you have either ocean acidification or warming. You simply can not have both.

But yet the claims are always bundled up. As long as they are you can not take one or the other as true.

.

I have no friends!

__________________
Common Sense Dictates
Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Eastern Arizona mountains on Route 666 about a mile from God's country
Posts: 1676
Good Answers: 122
#26
In reply to #10

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/09/2015 10:12 AM

Good points to consider.

Last week several leading university professors released the results of their recently completed study which indicates definitive evidence that oceanic acidification and global warming is directly related to the increased incidence of underwater volcanic activity.

The report is based on extensive deep water robotic sampling of temperature and measured gases over defined time periods.

Funny how few are paying any attention to their report which is based on actual measured DATA instead of the popular theory based on guesswork and assumption.

I personally think Monsanto and many other chemical producing companies often get "out of hand" in their zest for increasing profits just like every other manufacturing company.

__________________
They said; "Brain size?" I heard; "Train size?" so I said: "I'll take a small one, thank you."
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: East Texas
Posts: 1380
Good Answers: 31
#28
In reply to #26

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/09/2015 11:16 AM

-------------------"Last week several leading university professors released the results of their recently completed study which indicates definitive evidence that oceanic acidification and global warming is directly related to the increased incidence of underwater volcanic activity."

The report is based on extensive deep water robotic sampling of temperature and measured gases over defined time periods. --which is based on actual measured DATA instead of the popular theory based on guesswork and assumption." ------

Referencing a peer reviewed study without a link to that study makes both the claim of "leading university professors" and "definitive evidence" quite suspect.

Your inference that "data" does not support a relationship between atmospheric CO2 and ocean acidification is; well - ummm - bunk.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=ocean+acidification+and+atmospheric+Carbon+Dioxide&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C44&as_sdtp=

__________________
"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." -- Michelangelo
Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Out of your mind! Not in sight!
Posts: 4425
Good Answers: 107
#71
In reply to #28

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/11/2015 3:07 AM

While I agree that posting a link would have been nice I find that your link is lacking a precise target and is as worthless as posting no link.

Now go back to what I said. If CO2 is the reason for a warming then the warming ocean water would become less acidic by giving off CO2. End of story.

The idea is that you can not have both warming and acidification from CO2. You seem to support the notion that CO2 makes the oceans more acidic. We still can argue over the quantity but if you go with the quality of your idea you give up the claim of the warming due to CO2 at the same time.

__________________
Common Sense Dictates
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7959
Good Answers: 284
#75
In reply to #71

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/12/2015 6:59 AM

You would have to assume the levels of CO2 in the ocea were already at or near saturation for an increase in temperature to necessitate outgassing. That is a big assumption, and should be noted as such or accompanied by support.

.

I suspect levels of co2 are generally far from saturation in the oceans, however, even if there were areas near saturation, the fact that there are wide temperature variations with latitude longitude depth and season, along with significant mixing, the argument that acidification and temperature increase are incompatible is untenable.

.

It is no fun to be told that the clever proof you devised doesn't hold water.....but it doesn't.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Out of your mind! Not in sight!
Posts: 4425
Good Answers: 107
#80
In reply to #75

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/12/2015 10:06 AM

Well at least someone thinking. But how do you explain the mechanism by which the CO2 gets into the ocean in the first place. And what does change to put more into the oceans because there is a slight increase of atmospheric CO2? Will warmer water dissolve more CO2 or not?

If uptake is from the boundary layer between atmosphere and surface water, how would there more uptake than from colder water?

But honestly the discussion is moot. In reality the concentration that is already in the ocean is what we need to look at.

Here is a link to look at the carbon cycle.

See the statement on the top?

36,000 gigatons of carbon!

This is what is there already.

We know the pH value of Seawater is in between 8.1 and 7.5.

We also know that there is a logarithmic relation of the solution of C02 and forming of the H3O+ ions. In general terms this means that we have to put 10 times more CO2 in the oceans to raise the pH by one.

Now compared to what we produce (ca. 10 GT per year) and even if it all ends up in the ocean. We are still shy of ... hmmm... lets say a lot to even make a dent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification Its almost shameful what sort of information makes it into wikipedia.

But then there is this slightly hidden. And I found this.

Follow a link from the last on and you get this http://www.gemarsh.com/wp-content/uploads/SEAWATER%20pH%20&%20ANTHRO%20CO2%20V2.pdf

Brain Fodder! Have fun!

__________________
Common Sense Dictates
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7959
Good Answers: 284
#93
In reply to #80

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/12/2015 2:02 PM

It is a different argument entirely to say that the maximum possible effect is too small to be of concern for quite some time, and to say that the effect cannot happen under the assumptions.

At first blush it does seem to be a small addition, but there is a lot that I don't have a good feel for here. First of all, I have no idea what level of pH change for various areas becomes problematic? Are there feedback mechanisms, theorized or well established that are threatening?

.

I do know a thing or two about water chemistry, so I am not completely out of my element with that part of the discussion.

The co2, carbonic acid, ocean water ph change relationship is even slower than you suspect. All substances that change pH do so on a log scale since pH is on a log scale. Co2 with H2O and carbonic acid are in equilibrium. In seawater at the range.of temperatures found in the ocean the equlibrium constant typically yields a range between 1 and 1.5 moles H2CO3 for every 1000 moles CO2 in solution. So on the order of 0.1% with just co2 to carbonic acid.

By the way, quick interjection, addition of carbonic acid and its dissociations leads to a decrease in pH, not and increase, as this is becoming more acidic.

Also, above a pH of 7, reactions to eliminate OH- will predominate versus formation of H+/H3O+.

At any rate, from the roughly 0.12% of dissolved co2 that becomes H2CO3, there are two dissociations that lead to H+/H3O+ (reduction in hydroxide/lower pH) but the first dominates and current temp and pH matter. Anyway it is in the range of 2.5 x 10-3

So, very roughly that is 0.0003% or 3x10^-6 each additional CO2 results in a one less OH- or effectively one H+... Which at a pH of 8 is at a concentration of 10^-8....so one mole of CO2 will reduce the pH of roughly 300 moles of seawater around 8.0 pH by about 0.1 pH, roughly, if I haven't made a blunder.

.

But, here is the thing, presumably just some portion of the surface.is effected. How much?

Also, the cold upwelling waters have transit times some on the order of 1000 years, and the same must be true for the cold briney water sinking. Is that just a huge store, or are their less intuitive dynamics where old co2 rich waters.mixing with warmer more acidic surface waters.leads.to a shift and strong out gassing? I really only know enough to know that there is far too much that I don't know to make definitive aims about what will or will not or even what can or cannot happen, except in the most simple/extreme cases.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member Fans of Old Computers - Commodore 64 - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Illinois, 7 county region (The 'blue dot' that drags the rest of the 'red state' around during presidential elections.)
Posts: 3688
Good Answers: 89
#95
In reply to #93

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/12/2015 2:28 PM

"I have no idea what level of pH change for various areas becomes problematic?"

A quick way to learn, get an aquarium, set it up as a 'community tank' (meaning you have several different species in there, much like a real body of water), and try to keep any of the fish from dying due to the water being too acidic or too alkali.

Also, do NOT use goldfish; that, for the purpose of this demonstration, is cheating. 'Goldfish' are a collection of carp breeds, and carp are well know for being very hardy fish, able to tolerate a wide range of water conditions that would make other fish belly up to the surface.

__________________
( The opinions espressed in this post may not reflect the true opinions of the poster, and may not reflect commonly accepted versions of reality. ) (If you are wondering: yes, I DO hope to live to be as old as my jokes.)
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7959
Good Answers: 284
#97
In reply to #95

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/12/2015 2:38 PM

I had a brackish tank set up when I was a kid with the idea of being able to bring stuff from the bay to the tank. Even with what I thought were pretty hardy specimens, it was not easy to keep everything from looking a bit sad. I'm sure things would have been easier if I hadn't just been trying to wing it. A ph meter or stripz probably would have helped.The tank actually broke one night when everyone was out at the movies. 55 gallons of brackish water in the living room floor.

.

So, if you aren't using goldfish, maybe a salt water tank, do you think most fish would survive a 0.5 pH change if it occurred slowly enough.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member Fans of Old Computers - Commodore 64 - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Illinois, 7 county region (The 'blue dot' that drags the rest of the 'red state' around during presidential elections.)
Posts: 3688
Good Answers: 89
#99
In reply to #97

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/12/2015 2:46 PM

"55 gallons of brackish water in the living room floor."

I'm sure Mom and Dad were just THRILLED to come home to that.

"So, if you aren't using goldfish, maybe a salt water tank, do you think most fish would survive a 0.5 pH change if it occurred slowly enough."

In theory, yes. After all, in theory(1) you can have a frog sitting in an open pot of water until he boils to death, so if you manage the rate of change, you should be able to do it.

Although saltwater tanks are supposed to be HARDER to keep balanced than freshwater. You not only have to watch the pH, but the salinity as well, and adjusting one can upset the other.

Notes:

  1. I would never perform this test in real life; boiling frogs alive is nothing but wanton cruelty, and I will have no part in acts such as that.
__________________
( The opinions espressed in this post may not reflect the true opinions of the poster, and may not reflect commonly accepted versions of reality. ) (If you are wondering: yes, I DO hope to live to be as old as my jokes.)
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7959
Good Answers: 284
#104
In reply to #99

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/12/2015 11:51 PM

I don't know where my head was at when I read the last sentence in your post, but I read 'wonton cruelty', which made me wonder, are frogs (legs?) eaten in China, any why would it be cruel to.....ooooh wanton.'

I guess I'm hungry.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Out of your mind! Not in sight!
Posts: 4425
Good Answers: 107
#101
In reply to #93

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/12/2015 8:12 PM

Well then lets stick to the argument to small to be of concern.

I tried the link I put in and it did not work. The document makes a nice read and answers a lot of questions.

http://www.gemarsh.com/wp-content/uploads/SEAWATER%20pH%20&%20ANTHRO%20CO2%20V2.pdf

If it does not work go to the source 3 from this link.

If you look at the pH link from Wiki and the seawater pH you will read that it is a very complex issue but the main outcome is that:

However, pH measurement is complicated by the chemical properties of seawater, and several distinct pH scales exist in chemical oceanography.[18]

If there was any feedback mechanism then we would have heard something about the Sulphate Ion and its impact. Sulphur Oxide has a strong acidic reaction, yet no numbers are being put out to rule out its impact on acidification. One could even make a green case against Sulphur as it is blown into our oceans by diesel engines. By just looking at the CO2 we do not consider the complexity of the oceans.

You are correct with decrease/increase. I got that wrong every time I refer to pH.

I read in one of the links that the transit times is somewhere 300 years. Fact is that the sea has a big buffering potential.

Need to stop now. Thanks for you interest.

__________________
Common Sense Dictates
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7959
Good Answers: 284
#106
In reply to #101

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/13/2015 12:15 AM

Thanks for the link. Very interesting so far.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42290
Good Answers: 1662
#34
In reply to #10

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/09/2015 8:39 PM

I'm glad I didn't go to your school.

Register to Reply Score 2 for Off Topic
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Out of your mind! Not in sight!
Posts: 4425
Good Answers: 107
#107
In reply to #34

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/13/2015 2:53 AM

We had boys like you there! There certainly was no need for yet another one!

__________________
Common Sense Dictates
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42290
Good Answers: 1662
#116
In reply to #107

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/31/2015 10:50 AM

You are incorrectly implying that I support the theory of man made global warming, caused by the increased burning of fossil fuels, I think.

At no time have I ever said that I believe that man's burning of fossil fuels is the reason for THIS period of global warming. There are many who do believe that fossil fuels is contributing to this rise. I don't know, you do not know.

As I have said many times, we do not know. Maybe yes, maybe no, maybe it doesn't matter.

100 years of climate history that happen to coincide with the increased burning of fossil fuels means nothing to the Earth, which has been around for billions of years.

The historic heating/cooling cycles of the planet, and their frequency and duration, are there for all to see.

It is you, not I, who invoked the CO2 question.

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#117
In reply to #116

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/31/2015 12:33 PM

Did you see the split in the ground by Yellowstone?
There's nothing like a super volcano erupting, followed by 2 years of darkness, to remove the CO2 argument from the table.
That said... if Yellowstone goes off, I'm gonna cut back on beer and start exercising.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF4w7O46-7w

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Out of your mind! Not in sight!
Posts: 4425
Good Answers: 107
#119
In reply to #116

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

11/02/2015 8:08 AM

Lyn when you said you are glad not to have been in my school I was seriously looking three times if there was a hidden argument. But there was nothing.

Yes you are correct your teasing OP makes one wonder what and what not you believe.

If one is as strong opinionated about something one reads a lot more into comments than it is good for one. But this is not just me. I am sure.

As for the question of global warming I am pretty unsure if we even have the technology to make a decision on this. Is it warming? Can we say it is warming in a chaotic system? All around the globe? We utilise a statistic which is purposely build.

You know statistically there is 100% daylight globally and 100% darkness. And then we have a statistically determined global average temperature which ominous value is most of the time omitted. There is a lot of hype about an increase where 0.1 deg C per year is quoted. This has to be added to the global average temperature. As a statistical determined figure added to something that seems to be a moving target.

I have to dig up some sources.

What I think is that our statistical temperature evaluation has no merits in determining a "warming" of a chaotic system.

This Earth warms and cools not only in large time scales its a day to day thing.

__________________
Common Sense Dictates
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Out of your mind! Not in sight!
Posts: 4425
Good Answers: 107
#120
In reply to #119

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

11/02/2015 9:14 AM

Ok One source for some interesting read on the issue of the warming.

http://www.hashemifamily.com/Kevan/Climate/

__________________
Common Sense Dictates
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Where the sun sets on OZ
Posts: 1353
Good Answers: 27
#121
In reply to #120

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

11/02/2015 7:51 PM

I expected a blog that would comfortably fit into the "mugs manual" category. It turned out to be a very good article that has scientifically reviewed scientific papers. The author/s had me hooked when they said " Compelling arguments and sensible speculation are insufficient, nor is consensus among scientists, nor the authority of experts."

I only read half of the article for now and was astonished to see that LYN's arguments are borne out by them. (put in emoticon for astonishment)

Well worth a read.

GA

Jim

__________________
Where's the KaBoom? There should be a KaBoom!
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: East Texas
Posts: 1380
Good Answers: 31
#122
In reply to #119

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

11/02/2015 11:13 PM

"As for the question of global warming I am pretty unsure if we even have the technology to make a decision on this. Is it warming? Can we say it is warming in a chaotic system? All around the globe? We utilise a statistic which is purposely build."------------------------------------------

Read the IR signature of the Earth's disk as seen from a space. Monitor the average signature over time and use what Mr. Plank, Mr. Boltzmann, and Mr. Stefan taught us to determine any change in average temperature.

To suggest that human kind is not impacting climate is to suggest human kind is not impacting atmospheric composition or planetary albedo.

__________________
"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." -- Michelangelo
Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Out of your mind! Not in sight!
Posts: 4425
Good Answers: 107
#125
In reply to #122

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

11/03/2015 4:26 AM

Now I truly wonder why I would have to do this while we have all them well paid scientists doing it already!

I also wonder where you are going with the Albedo thing. Seems that clouds and water and ice and land have a large impact.

Read the Wiki again if you want.

With the oceans taking up enough area we would have to introduce something real big to change the albedo effect from the oceans.

I think humans have an effect but a very minuscule one.

We do by the way change the atmosphere around us with every breath we take! Very very very little!

__________________
Common Sense Dictates
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42290
Good Answers: 1662
#123
In reply to #119

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

11/02/2015 11:42 PM

When I said, "I'm glad I didn't go to your school" I meant that if your school teaches you that "global warming" is a hoax it is not a place I'd care to be.

I believe that you do not understand what "global warning" is.

I've explained all this already.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Out of your mind! Not in sight!
Posts: 4425
Good Answers: 107
#124
In reply to #123

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

11/03/2015 4:17 AM

See when I went to school we were talking about an ice age coming. They also thought us basic science. Something that comes in handy if you have to make it through the science jungle out there.

I get your position that there is a warming and I am not sure where you are on the "how much does mankind contribute" side.

I ignore the global warning because there is too many claiming that there will be an apocalypse. It might come but maybe in a complete different form.

Thanks for your reply!

__________________
Common Sense Dictates
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: at the beach in Florida
Posts: 30948
Good Answers: 1726
#11

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/09/2015 12:17 AM

I would say that if Glyphosate was a threat, that farmers would be the first to know, as they are the primary users an have by far the highest exposure....

..."Glyphosate has been called by experts in herbicides "virtually ideal" due to its broad spectrum and low toxicity to animal life compared with other herbicides.[16][17][18][19] Franz received the National Medal of Technology in 1987[20] and the Perkin Medal for Applied Chemistry[21] in 1990 for his discoveries. Franz was inducted into the National Inventor's Hall of Fame in 2007.[22]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glyphosate

__________________
Break a sweat everyday doing something you enjoy
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: East Texas
Posts: 1380
Good Answers: 31
#12

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/09/2015 12:32 AM

Regardless of the human health effects of wide scale glyphosate use there appears to be a clear detrimental impact on a variety of flora and fauna.

__________________
"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." -- Michelangelo
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: at the beach in Florida
Posts: 30948
Good Answers: 1726
#14
In reply to #12

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/09/2015 12:44 AM

You mean weeds......yeah, that's the idea....itsa herbicide...

__________________
Break a sweat everyday doing something you enjoy
Register to Reply
3
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: East Texas
Posts: 1380
Good Answers: 31
#16
In reply to #14

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/09/2015 1:40 AM

As we reduce the variety of agricultural crops through genetic modifications we also increase the risks well associated to mono-culture regarding disease and pests.

"Weeds" are only "weeds" when they interfere with revenue; unfortunately for many other insect and bird species they are part of an intricate web of life that short sighted, narrow minded, and may I add - greedy people chose to ignore.

"Value" lies much further afield than a simple ledger.

__________________
"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." -- Michelangelo
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7959
Good Answers: 284
#48
In reply to #16

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/10/2015 12:54 PM

Variety is not reduced by genetic modification. It is produced by monoculture focused agriculture.

There are of course efficiencies to be derived from monoculture, yet people have a fascination with monoculture that is, in many, to the point to fetishism, and nothing to do with efficiency.

Manicured lawns are an obvious example; not grown for valuable produce, fertilized, artifically watered, and.chemically treated.to eliminate.competition. All of this encouraging rapid growth so that it must be trimmed regularly )with loud annoying equipment)with the clippings usually discarded.

.

There is certainly reason to be concerned about solutions designed to kill flora and fauna released in uncontained environments. We, along with a lot of other stuff, live out here. It is like the people with a can of Raid spraying poison in their house in hopes of reducing the number of bugs. Ridiculous.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: at the beach in Florida
Posts: 30948
Good Answers: 1726
#13

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/09/2015 12:40 AM

Why not concentrate on a real threat ...I guess you prefer the easy popular targets...like government, politicians, big corporations...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/innovations/wp/2015/02/20/the-12-threats-to-human-civilization-ranked/

__________________
Break a sweat everyday doing something you enjoy
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Out of your mind! Not in sight!
Posts: 4425
Good Answers: 107
#15
In reply to #13

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/09/2015 1:30 AM

Oh Artificial Intelligence. I think we covered the real thread when talking about driver less cars already.

And we also talked about Exo-planetary live.

Lets look at water on Mars. If what I read is right then the Rover does not investigate because it might not be sterile enough to prevent contamination.

A while back I asked that question and now here we have a pointer.

How far are we away from actually bringing a vessel back from Mars with the effect of maybe bringing life to Earth. This is almost a rhetorical question.

Mankind is mankinds worst thread.

__________________
Common Sense Dictates
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: East Texas
Posts: 1380
Good Answers: 31
#17
In reply to #15

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/09/2015 2:00 AM

In terms of life and evolution Mars is of interest only in a historical perspective. The relationship of surface area to volume, and thus mass, put Mars on the thermodynamic fast track. Perhaps it moved through a life supportable environment earlier and faster than earth.

For both Earth and Mars an atmosphere requires a protective magnetic field. A biosphere also requires some means of protection from ionizing radiation as well.

Perhaps Mars is a good look at where the Earth is going in terms of planetary evolution. Where cooling has left it with inadequate dynamics to generate a magnetic field strong enough to prevent kinetic stripping of its atmosphere and protection from high levels of ionizing radiation.

__________________
"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." -- Michelangelo
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Out of your mind! Not in sight!
Posts: 4425
Good Answers: 107
#21
In reply to #17

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/09/2015 3:43 AM

All you are saying is that there is no life on Mars and while I can not prove it I think you are wrong.

I am talking bacteria here but would not be surprised if we find higher life f(w)orms.

__________________
Common Sense Dictates
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: East Texas
Posts: 1380
Good Answers: 31
#27
In reply to #21

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/09/2015 10:52 AM

No. I am not suggesting that some type of life cannot currently exist on Mars. What I am suggesting is the atmosphere of Mars is becoming less and less dense through the process of kinetic stripping by the solar wind. This resulting from the loss of a significant electro-magnetic field.

I suggest that Mars once had a magnetic field strong enough to protect a biosphere; but because of a much higher surface area per unit volume it cooled much faster and is now at a thermodynamic state that no longer supports a significant planetary dynamo.

Assuming that Earth and Mars both formed from the same accretion disk it can be inferred they are about the same age; but a more rapid thermodynamic evolution moved Mars through the epoch in which complex life could evolve at the surface much more rapidly. This may have allowed life on Mars to develop earlier but also reduced the time span in which life could flourish.

When we look at Mars we are looking at the future of our own planet.

__________________
"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." -- Michelangelo
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Out of your mind! Not in sight!
Posts: 4425
Good Answers: 107
#112
In reply to #27

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/14/2015 12:32 AM
__________________
Common Sense Dictates
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#115
In reply to #112

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/31/2015 12:43 AM

Now that the NASA channel offers free lubrication to the weepy eyed followers of bullshit propaganda...I'm in.
A little shot is all it takes.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Out of your mind! Not in sight!
Posts: 4425
Good Answers: 107
#118
In reply to #115

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

11/02/2015 7:31 AM

Kram, just had a little shot of a fine Grappa! Had to flush down a nice BBQ served with self grown lettuce.

How was your helicopter ride?

:-) good to see you back and if it is just from time to time.

Plenty of nerdy CO2 threads around.

See ya!

__________________
Common Sense Dictates
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: City of Light
Posts: 3945
Good Answers: 182
#23
In reply to #13

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/09/2015 8:58 AM

Thank you for the link. I will have a thorough look at it. But before studying it I think that on the first place we should have the human stupidity and fanatical behavior which are connected and could lead to the end of humanity in a much more sure way than other aggression since its probability to appear and spread is very very high.

I read some where and I use it that the only thing which can give a real feeling about infinity is human stupidity.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Out of your mind! Not in sight!
Posts: 4425
Good Answers: 107
#22

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/09/2015 3:46 AM

Now my vote!

I think Yellowstone or a similar event will have make the global kill but I think we have a fair chance that mankind finds multiple ways to make it looking like a relief.

__________________
Common Sense Dictates
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - Old Salt Hobbies - CNC - New Member United States - US - Statue of Liberty - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Rosedale, Maryland USA
Posts: 5198
Good Answers: 266
#24

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/09/2015 9:33 AM

In reading the article about GMO. I got the idea that as an economist it is better to let the general public get sick and die of some GMO related illness. Then to let a small portion of the public die of starvation. Most of it was about Monsanto money. Nothing about whether it's safe to consume.

Other have brought up the generations of cross breeding or genetic mutation that happen naturally that was capitalize. Some of the GMO are using genes that could never be cross bred in, mutated maybe.

Anytime we play with natural selection we gamble. For Monsanto it's about money. Does anyone want Mosanto to gamble with their lives. Them or any other company that does genetic modification for a profit on foods stuffs.

__________________
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a pretty, pristine body but rather to come sliding in sideways, all used up and exclaiming, "Wow, what a ride!"
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: at the beach in Florida
Posts: 30948
Good Answers: 1726
#35

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/09/2015 11:37 PM

If humans took on the genetic makeup of the foods we ate, we'd all look like cows....

__________________
Break a sweat everyday doing something you enjoy
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 482
#102
In reply to #35

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/12/2015 8:17 PM

Are these cows on drugs? Eyes are dilated

__________________
The doctor said "just one post or reply aday in CR4, take it or leave it". I said, "what does that mean?"
Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42290
Good Answers: 1662
#103
In reply to #102

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/12/2015 8:48 PM

I wonder the same thing about you.

Register to Reply
Guru
Belgium - Member - New Member APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Glabbeek, Belgium
Posts: 1481
Good Answers: 28
#108
In reply to #102

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/13/2015 4:24 AM

at least they like good grass

__________________
"Here we are now, entertain us"
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - Time to take control United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Tampa, Florida, USA
Posts: 2105
Good Answers: 87
#109
In reply to #102

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/13/2015 7:09 AM

Maybe they are Japanese cows.

__________________
J B
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#38

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/10/2015 3:06 AM

If we simply follow the money, I see no benefit from Monsanto.
Which kills us first?
I'll take fast, and neither are living up to the chore.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#41

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/10/2015 9:02 AM

It's not the genetic mutation that's killing us. It's our corporate owned government that doesn't even bother getting dressed anymore. They simply lay there naked, waiting for the next donor.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/25/roundup-health-study-idUSL2N0DC22F20130425

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#43

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/10/2015 9:12 AM

Global warming is not a hoax. It's as real as multicolored homosexual unicorns.
What did one gay unicorn say to his multicultural metrosexual unicorn friend?
I'm horny.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
2
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#47

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/10/2015 12:39 PM

Sorry I went OT.
Will Monsanto kill us before Yellowstone?
Yes. If our politicians want to subsidize corn growers, why not just force us to send them money and call it "Corncare".
We didn't need ethanol, high fructose corn syrup, or glyphosate introduced to our diet.

Can we talk about something a little less gloomy...like the rampant increase in autism, diabetes, allergic reactions, and the childhood obesity epidemic?

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1064
Good Answers: 92
#49
In reply to #47

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/10/2015 12:56 PM

You are welcome to your own opinion, but personally I don't mind a bit of alcohol in my diet. Just keep it out of my gasoline!

By the way, HFCS might have something to do with your last point.

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#50
In reply to #49

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/10/2015 1:04 PM

I'm drinking cheap wine from a Little Princess sippy cup.
As far as global warming goes, (and don't quote me on this), I'm pretty sure that they've invented some kind of new fangled device that disproves it.
It's so new, I'm not even sure of the spelling...I think they call it a thermometer.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42290
Good Answers: 1662
#51
In reply to #50

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/10/2015 1:14 PM

"I'm drinking cheap wine from a Little Princess sippy cup."

That sippy cup ain't foolin' any of us.

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#52
In reply to #51

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/10/2015 1:34 PM

I didn't pop in to muddy the cool, clear waters of CR4.
Just wanted to give you a poke in the ribs, and make sure that tinac was still grappling with brevity.
All is well.
I'm gonna git before solareagle swoops in and tells me that Monsanto is gonna save the world.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7959
Good Answers: 284
#54
In reply to #52

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/10/2015 1:48 PM

Indeed, grappling with brevity.

And you? How is your ennui coming along?

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#56
In reply to #54

Re: Will Monsanto Kill Us Before Yellowstone?

10/10/2015 3:30 PM

Short and sweet...I like it.
Thanks for asking about my ennui. I raped it, killed it, and then brought it back to life...as evidenced by this OT post.
Don't be sniffin' around for a sh*t storm; like an ex wife, by the time you hit the 5th bullet point....you win, and I'm happy to not be dealing with you.;-)

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Register to Reply Page 1 of 2: « First 1 2 Next > Last »
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

adreasler (3); bullardrr (2); evanmjones (1); facilitiesmgr (2); Gavilan (9); Gwen.Stouthuysen (3); IdeaSmith (16); jack of all trades (2); JBTardis (1); jhhassociates (1); JIMRAT (2); JNB (3); kramarat (14); Legolaz (3); lyn (19); nick name (6); Original_Macgyver (1); ozzb (1); Phys (5); redfred (4); roy hammy (1); SHOCKHISCAN (2); SolarEagle (6); tcmtech (1); truth is not a compromise (17); Usbport (1)

Previous in Forum: Nonscratch Clear Material   Next in Forum: How to Remove Xylene From Methanol

Advertisement