Previous in Forum: Polarity Exchange   Next in Forum: Fire Up That Black Light, What Is It
Close
Close
Close
24 comments
Rating: Comments: Nested
Power-User

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Posts: 393
Good Answers: 21

I Have a Theory

10/19/2015 11:25 AM

Maybe this isn't strictly and engineering question but I thought there are many great minds here who may have thought of this and come to a conclusion. So here it is.

Let's say we have a snooker table with one ball on it and I roll it in a certain direction with a certain velocity. It will eventually come to a halt in one location at a certain time. In theory if I repeat this exactly then it will always come to halt at the same location at the same time because the initial conditions were the same and the input was the same. This would hold true for two balls, or three, or four or any number of balls.

So if we believe in the big bang, we have one set of initial conditions and the input (the big bang) happens. If we apply the snooker ball theory we could say that if the big bang happened exactly the same each time then the outcome would be exactly the same each time. So I was thinking that because the initial conditions of our big bang were set when it happened then the outcome can only possibly be one scenario.

Therefore are we living a prescripted story which was decided at the big bang. Every decision we make is nothing more than the consequence of the arrangement of atoms which has arrived at this point but was decided when time started.

This probably isn't a new idea and has been debunked already but what do you all think?

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7025
Good Answers: 207
#1

Re: I have a theory.

10/19/2015 11:29 AM

nope, once you die you're done, no second or third tries

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42355
Good Answers: 1693
#13
In reply to #1

Re: I have a theory.

10/19/2015 6:24 PM

How do you know this is true?

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: by the beach in Florida
Posts: 33392
Good Answers: 1817
#2

Re: I have a theory.

10/19/2015 11:51 AM

Nothing is ever what it is until observed, quantum theory makes free will possible...The arrow of time is a one direction trip guaranteed by entropy... $.02

__________________
All living things seek to control their own destiny....this is the purpose of life
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: About 4000 miles from the center of the earth (+/-100 mi)
Posts: 9911
Good Answers: 1141
#3

Re: I have a theory.

10/19/2015 12:05 PM

Unfortunately, determinism is dead. Heisenburg killed it (or maybe it's neither dead nor alive, like Schroedinger's cat.) On the quantum level, it's all probability. If you play the universe over again, it won't be the same.

Register to Reply
2
Guru
Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: NYC metropolitan area.
Posts: 3230
Good Answers: 444
#4

Re: I have a theory.

10/19/2015 12:48 PM

Sorry, by that theory if you set up and release a pair of dice exactly the same every time you'll get the same result each time, something we all know is not true. Even your billiard ball theory is flawed because each time you release the ball with the same force on the same path, you microscopically change the cloth under its path, thereby altering its course a tiny bit.

I'm afraid that asking an engineering forum a philosophical question and expecting a sound result is an exercise in futility.

__________________
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” Ben Franklin.
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7025
Good Answers: 207
#6
In reply to #4

Re: I have a theory.

10/19/2015 1:02 PM

not to mention the path that the table fabric will have worn into it

Register to Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Project Managers & Project Engineers - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Midwestern United States
Posts: 843
Good Answers: 76
#5

Re: I have a theory.

10/19/2015 1:01 PM

'If' everything is exactly the same - one could argue repeatable results even at the smallest level, but things are never the same to the degree necessary to repeat at the smallest level.

I still don't think we've been able to mathematically model the tip of a flame, or the transition from laminar to turbulent, have we? Too many variables and too many non-repeatable conditions.

__________________
Reuters - Investigators found that the recent thread derailment in CR4 was caused by over-weight creatures of lore and request that membership DON'T FEED THE TROLLS.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Iowa, USA
Posts: 577
Good Answers: 50
#7

Re: I have a theory.

10/19/2015 1:07 PM

It's CHAOS, and there is no repeating with the exact same initial conditions. And the conditions change as they play out.

__________________
ignator -
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Posts: 393
Good Answers: 21
#8

Re: I have a theory.

10/19/2015 1:35 PM

Thanks for giving it a name I could look up, determinism. Interesting topic, granted maybe not the right forum but engineering being the appliance of science I thought I'd ask.

Apparently determinism isn't dead as conflicting theories are far from complete. People I've spoken to agree that with the same initial conditions the snooker ball theory is correct but don't believe it can be scaled up to the universe, but they don't know why they think that.

I'm not saying that if we rerun the big bang the universe will be the same, as the initial condition may well be different. The problem I can't get my head around is for this big bang there was one initial condition. If there are multiple outcomes then it suggests there is either something outside the system which could influence the outcome or the snooker ball theory doesn't workwork. Assuming there is no God influencing it, where does the snooker ball theory fall down? I'm not talking about repeatability rather the idea that for a unique initial condition there is one and only one unique outcome?

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - EE from the the Wilds of Pa.

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: middle of nowhere, Pennsylvania
Posts: 2603
Good Answers: 63
#18
In reply to #8

Re: I have a theory.

10/20/2015 8:56 AM

So maybe you are onto something considering only non-living things. (planets/stars/comets) However, when you bring living creatures into the equation, can we be sure they will choose exactly the same every time? Is the thought process based on physical entities only? We still know far too little about the actual thought process to say that, for example, Hitler will attack Russia again and fail to pull out in winter. That would make a big difference in the order of things today, would it not?

__________________
Remember when reading my post: (-1)^½ m (2)^½
Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11119
Good Answers: 918
#9

Re: I have a theory.

10/19/2015 2:06 PM

No. Random quantum variations play an important part in the structure of our universe.

There would be no way to insure the same set of conditions and as such, outcomes would most likely be wildly different with each throw of the dice.

This is one of the fundamental differences between the macro world (your snooker table example) and the quantum world.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42355
Good Answers: 1693
#10
In reply to #9

Re: I have a theory.

10/19/2015 3:35 PM

Even the snooker ball analogy won't work, anywhere except on the equator, then only if released exactly parallel to the Earth's rotation due to the Coriolis effect.

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11119
Good Answers: 918
#11
In reply to #10

Re: I have a theory.

10/19/2015 4:31 PM

Depends on the level of accuracy you want to measure at.

The universe is another matter. A tiny deviation in anything would be huge after 13.8 billion years.

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Fans of Old Computers - PDP 11 - New Member Technical Fields - Architecture - New Member Hobbies - HAM Radio - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Maine, USA
Posts: 2168
Good Answers: 71
#12
In reply to #11

Re: I have a theory.

10/19/2015 6:19 PM

But if you measure it....

__________________
Tom - "Hoping my ship will come in before the dock rots!"
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chicago
Posts: 3990
Good Answers: 144
#14
In reply to #11

Re: I have a theory.

10/19/2015 8:22 PM

I distinctly remember distinctly remember him asking the same question 17 and a half billion years ago ago.

__________________
High Tolerance is Beautiful
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Musician - Engineering Fields - Chemical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Moses Lake, WA, USA, Thulcandra - The Silent Planet (C.S. Lewis)
Posts: 4216
Good Answers: 194
#20
In reply to #14

Re: I have a theory.

10/20/2015 12:12 PM

Is there an echo in here?

__________________
"Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them. Leave them alone." - Ayn Rand
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Participant

Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 1
#15

Re: I Have a Theory

10/20/2015 1:24 AM

Nothing stays the same; change is always occurring. Otherwise God would get bored and since we were created similar, image-wise, we have to deal with that. Randomness occurs on a quantum level and the choices we make, even unreasoned random ones are not ultimately preordained. Entropy occurs. The challenge is to try yourself to create exact same starting circumstances with your pool balls on the surface of the table on the surface of the rotating revolving planet within the rotating galaxy within the expanding universe influenced by gravity acting on all objects from constantly varying relative positions. Go on, try it. Let me know how it turns out.

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 201
Good Answers: 5
#16

Re: I Have a Theory

10/20/2015 1:28 AM

Another factor is that after the initial roll of the ball the medium through which it has to push its way will be different. The exact number of molecules of oxygen, nitrogen and other gasses will be altered, there could still be a currents that the first role set up that completely alter the second roll. In a Platonic world in theory maybe repeated roles would be possible (though I doubt it) but in the real universe initial conditions could never be repeated. Well, okay, maybe by random chance once ever 10^100 years or so.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hemel Hempstead, UK
Posts: 5826
Good Answers: 322
#17

Re: I Have a Theory

10/20/2015 5:21 AM

Have a look at chaos theory: especially the pendulum with three magnets problem.

__________________
If you spend all your time looking for people and things to complain about: trust me, you will find plenty to complain about.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Tamworth, UK.
Posts: 1782
Good Answers: 45
#19

Re: I Have a Theory

10/20/2015 9:02 AM

..there's a butterfly out there somewhere...!

__________________
When arguing, remember mud-slinging = lost ground.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 859
Good Answers: 33
#21

Re: I Have a Theory

10/20/2015 1:56 PM

You forget that each time the snooker ball rolls on the felt, a minute amount of wear of the felt occurs, the felt is ever so slightly compressed, and subsequent rolls may take the ball ever so slightly farther each time it is rolled. That is why tables get recovered. Don't know if that would have any effect in your scenario…Intereseting thoughts...

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42355
Good Answers: 1693
#22
In reply to #21

Re: I Have a Theory

10/20/2015 2:17 PM

My take, for what it's worth, would be there's new felt each time the ball is rolled.

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11119
Good Answers: 918
#23
In reply to #22

Re: I Have a Theory

10/20/2015 3:44 PM

Then there is variation in the felt, lot to lot, and batch to batch.

Temperature and seismic variations and we can't forget the Moon.

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 482
#24

Re: I Have a Theory

10/21/2015 1:27 AM

Chaos theory supporst free will. In the sense that we still dont know what is our future. But once we can predict, then chaos wont be chaos anymore.

__________________
The doctor said "just one post or reply aday in CR4, take it or leave it". I said, "what does that mean?"
Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Register to Reply 24 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Hero (3); C-Mac (1); Fredski (2); horace40 (1); ignator (1); JavaHead (1); JE in Chicago (1); Legolaz (1); lyn (3); MACA (1); Mikerho (1); Phys (1); prof peanut (1); RAMConsult (1); Randall (1); Randy Johnson (1); Rixter (1); SolarEagle (1); Tom_Consulting (1)

Previous in Forum: Polarity Exchange   Next in Forum: Fire Up That Black Light, What Is It

Advertisement