Previous in Forum: Control Engineering Question - What Drawback is Associated with Gain Compensation?   Next in Forum: Battery Charger - 3 Ph Rectifier High voltage output
Close
Close
Close
21 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Member

Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 7

Isolator between VFD and Motor

02/24/2016 8:56 AM

Hi,

Is it advisible to put isolator between VFD and motor. What will be the Merits & Demerits.

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 335
#1

Re: Isolator between VFD and Motor

02/24/2016 10:06 AM

What does VFD manual says? Or may be NEC?

__________________
"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart."
Register to Reply
4
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4665
Good Answers: 804
#2

Re: Isolator between VFD and Motor

02/24/2016 10:56 AM

It's fine, and is often required for safety reasons. But you must ensure that the switch cannot be opened under load. Opening a switch under load on the output of a VFD can damage the transistors, which essentially means scrapping the VFD now. So you can use a key interlock system that does not allow the isolator to be opened unless the VFD is off, but it's usually easier to use an auxiliary contact on the switch that is fed to the VFD to shut down the VFD output if the switch starts to open. Most disconnect switch aux contacts are designed this way; the aux contacts open prior to the main contacts. So you use a NO aux on the switch in the Run/Enable circuit or the Safety circuit of the VFD.

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 4)
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Port Macquarie N.S.W. Australia
Posts: 1071
Good Answers: 225
#3

Re: Isolator between VFD and Motor

02/24/2016 2:01 PM

As has been stated, you must not isolate the motor while under load if a VFD is in use.

I don't know if the rules have changed recently, but it was acceptable for the safety isolator to operate in the control circuit of the motor starter.

Therefore a simple SPST switch wired in series with the stop button would be sufficient to stop the VFD and so provide safe isolation of the motor for maintenance purposes, and running a couple of extra control wires can often be more economical than the cost of a complicated (and often very large) motor isolator.

The switch must be lockable if not adjacent to the motor.

JRAEF would be in a better position to advise if this is now aceptable, and local rules will obviously have to be observed.

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Resting under the Major Oak
Posts: 4347
Good Answers: 181
#17
In reply to #3

Re: Isolator between VFD and Motor

02/26/2016 10:49 AM

You wouldn't get away with using "control" as a method of isolation in the EU countries. The Machine Control Directive 2006/42/EC will have it covered somewhere.

An auxiliary early break / late make as JR suggested is the accepted "norm"

__________________
The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Surrey BC Canada
Posts: 1571
Good Answers: 42
#4

Re: Isolator between VFD and Motor

02/25/2016 12:45 AM

Depending on the drive and HP (and local codes) - you may be interested in "Safe Torque OFF" (or similar wording) that may be able to provide machine operators with the required safety levels at a fraction of the cost.

Having said that See JR post - excellent.

(I am a traditionalist (obsolete stick in the mud?) from back in the 70's - I like positive lockouts that PLC's and people poking at relays can't bypass.)

Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#5

Re: Isolator between VFD and Motor

02/25/2016 3:44 AM

<...advisable...>? In some countries' electrical codes, it is a requirement. Therefore the <...Merits and Demerits...> issue doesn't arise.

If in doubt, consult a qualified Electrician.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member Fans of Old Computers - Commodore 64 - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Illinois, 7 county region (The 'blue dot' that drags the rest of the 'red state' around during presidential elections.)
Posts: 3683
Good Answers: 89
#6
In reply to #5

Re: Isolator between VFD and Motor

02/25/2016 2:21 PM

"In some countries' electrical codes, it is a requirement."

If memory serves, VFD's are designed to operate as 'current sources, ' not 'voltage sources.

Unless the rules o0f electricity have changed, motors are considered Inductive loads.

Putting a make/break switch between a constant current source and an inductive load sounds like a Bad Thing? How bad? "Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light(1)." Okay, not crossing-the streams bad, but it still sounds like it'll end up killing someone and/or causing expensive property damage.

Notes:

  1. Thanks to and in memory of Harold Ramis. Egon but not forgotten.
__________________
( The opinions espressed in this post may not reflect the true opinions of the poster, and may not reflect commonly accepted versions of reality. ) (If you are wondering: yes, I DO hope to live to be as old as my jokes.)
Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Surrey BC Canada
Posts: 1571
Good Answers: 42
#7
In reply to #6

Re: Isolator between VFD and Motor

02/25/2016 2:35 PM

Both types exist, current source, and PWM "voltage" waveforms.

I believe the majority are PWM, and can run with V/Hz or in vector, torque control modes.

JR can elaborate.

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member Fans of Old Computers - Commodore 64 - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Illinois, 7 county region (The 'blue dot' that drags the rest of the 'red state' around during presidential elections.)
Posts: 3683
Good Answers: 89
#8
In reply to #7

Re: Isolator between VFD and Motor

02/25/2016 3:30 PM

Thank you for the information. Since I don't build or design VFDs, the ones we have at work I tent to think of in 'black box' terms: "This is the speed controller for the motor, these are the pots you adjust for minimum/maximum speeds, these are the pots for ramp-up/ramp-down durations, these are the run/stop signals. The power feed connects here, and the motor connects there. How does it function internally? I don't need to know that today, I just need to make the speed of THIS belt motor adjustable, and this VFD is described as the right type for that class of motor."

__________________
( The opinions espressed in this post may not reflect the true opinions of the poster, and may not reflect commonly accepted versions of reality. ) (If you are wondering: yes, I DO hope to live to be as old as my jokes.)
Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Surrey BC Canada
Posts: 1571
Good Answers: 42
#12
In reply to #8

Re: Isolator between VFD and Motor

02/25/2016 7:54 PM

Yeah, I tend to start falling into that class also.

At one point I had all the chip numbers, device numbers etc at my finger tips - but like computers (at one point I made some of my own pc boards for the Z80) I think of them more as a tool now - until one needs fixing, and even then it is usually not cost effective.

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member Fans of Old Computers - Commodore 64 - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Illinois, 7 county region (The 'blue dot' that drags the rest of the 'red state' around during presidential elections.)
Posts: 3683
Good Answers: 89
#14
In reply to #12

Re: Isolator between VFD and Motor

02/26/2016 9:11 AM

Yeah, I remember a project I was designing back when I was working on my Associate Degree; a 'memory / I/O expander' for 8 bit microprocessors. Using 4 address spaces, I created a 'gateway' to a block of 64K addresses. It was pretty clever for its time; read/write slots for the 'internal address, one read/write slot for the data, and one 'half read/half write' slot for control and status. Thanks to USB sticks, it's now completely useless, but it helped me better understand digital circuits, and even learn a few things about 'waveform shaping' using TTL components.

__________________
( The opinions espressed in this post may not reflect the true opinions of the poster, and may not reflect commonly accepted versions of reality. ) (If you are wondering: yes, I DO hope to live to be as old as my jokes.)
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Surrey BC Canada
Posts: 1571
Good Answers: 42
#15
In reply to #14

Re: Isolator between VFD and Motor

02/26/2016 10:25 AM

USB sticks are no fun - you can't build your own!

This week I finally threw out my 4:1 Red & Blue stick down templates, traces, and all the donuts for doing PC board layouts. I haven't touched them in 25 years. But they did bring back fond memories. The few boards I do now are all done on a computer, and the auto routing isn't bad either. You still need to be creative for noise sensitive traces and traces for thermal management My draftsman looks blank when I tell him the pad on the resistor need to be a half inch square ---- then you explain the resistor is 7 watts, and solder melts at 188c, and the resistor can run at 220c - the pad keeps the lead temperature down on the board. etc etc

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member Fans of Old Computers - Commodore 64 - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Illinois, 7 county region (The 'blue dot' that drags the rest of the 'red state' around during presidential elections.)
Posts: 3683
Good Answers: 89
#18
In reply to #15

Re: Isolator between VFD and Motor

02/26/2016 11:02 AM

"My draftsman looks blank when I tell him the pad on the resistor need to be a half inch square ---- then you explain the resistor is 7 watts, and solder melts at 188c, and the resistor can run at 220c - the pad keeps the lead temperature down on the board. etc etc"

You bring up a good point there, and something that is very relavent to electronics design, specifically in the Console Games market.

Sony's had some heat-related issues with their consoles in the past: the PS2 needed to be vertical to dissipate heat properly, the PS3 needed to stay horizontal or the SMT components could slip when the system was running at 'full power,' I haven't heard much on which is the 'right' way to set up the PS4, however, I think that unit is more tolerant of positions because they're not using so many custom, designed-in-house chips what the designers were underestimating the heat dissipation on.

Notice that we never had so much 'component slippage' when we were using through-board mounting. and the 8085/8088 processors are still the only ones certified as 'space radiation tolerant' and listed as suitable for spacecraft that will be carrying a human crew. Sometimes the 'old ways,' while not the fastest/flashiest, are the most 'durable' in the long run.

__________________
( The opinions espressed in this post may not reflect the true opinions of the poster, and may not reflect commonly accepted versions of reality. ) (If you are wondering: yes, I DO hope to live to be as old as my jokes.)
Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#9
In reply to #6

Re: Isolator between VFD and Motor

02/25/2016 4:49 PM

The ideal thing to do is to configure it so that the emergency stop button cable runs through it, and the contact for the emergency stop circuit opens before the phase contacts open.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member Fans of Old Computers - Commodore 64 - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Illinois, 7 county region (The 'blue dot' that drags the rest of the 'red state' around during presidential elections.)
Posts: 3683
Good Answers: 89
#10
In reply to #9

Re: Isolator between VFD and Motor

02/25/2016 5:17 PM

Pretty much what I would think:

Stop button signals VFD to stop.

E-stop de-energizes VFD as quickly as possible without causing a secondary hazard. (a 'safe' VDF would be designed so that if it lost supply power, it would 'bleed out' any residual reductive/capacitive charge trough an internal resistor load instead of 'dumping' the power through an external contact. The system should stay safe even if some doofus trips over the cord and yanks it out of the wall socket.)

__________________
( The opinions espressed in this post may not reflect the true opinions of the poster, and may not reflect commonly accepted versions of reality. ) (If you are wondering: yes, I DO hope to live to be as old as my jokes.)
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Surrey BC Canada
Posts: 1571
Good Answers: 42
#16
In reply to #9

Re: Isolator between VFD and Motor

02/26/2016 10:43 AM

E.stop - is that the stop that is as fast as possible - using all the power available at your command?

Coast stop - open the contactors?

Quick Stop

Fast stop

Power off stop

Normal stop

E.Stop, off1, off2, stop, etc

I wish industry would standardize! One factory E.stop = coast stop = power off stop, the next factory E.stop is regenerative (and could still take minutes with high inertia loads), coast stop maintains fields on the DC machines but opens the armatures, while Power Off does just that - you turn the lights out and go home. The stop mode also depends on the situation - is someone or the product getting tangled up --or is there an electrical fire and you want to kill the power. Making the devices intuitive as to their function can be a real challenge - when the situation occurs you want the knee jerk response to be correct.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member Fans of Old Computers - Commodore 64 - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Illinois, 7 county region (The 'blue dot' that drags the rest of the 'red state' around during presidential elections.)
Posts: 3683
Good Answers: 89
#19
In reply to #16

Re: Isolator between VFD and Motor

02/26/2016 2:50 PM

Technically, the big red E-stop mushroom is supposed to be the 'emergency power cutoff,' hitting that is supposed to disconnect the equipment from power completely. To stop the machine in an emergency, but not de-power it, you should have a black mushroom-head 'machine stop' button.

__________________
( The opinions espressed in this post may not reflect the true opinions of the poster, and may not reflect commonly accepted versions of reality. ) (If you are wondering: yes, I DO hope to live to be as old as my jokes.)
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Surrey BC Canada
Posts: 1571
Good Answers: 42
#20
In reply to #19

Re: Isolator between VFD and Motor

02/26/2016 2:57 PM

Ok, you just added Machine Stop to the list!

I just love standards - if you don't like one, find another.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member Fans of Old Computers - Commodore 64 - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Illinois, 7 county region (The 'blue dot' that drags the rest of the 'red state' around during presidential elections.)
Posts: 3683
Good Answers: 89
#21
In reply to #20

Re: Isolator between VFD and Motor

02/26/2016 3:06 PM

Yeah, unfortunately, we can't seem to come up with Standardized Standards.

All we seem able to to is Harmonize them. What are we, a Barber Shop Quartet?

__________________
( The opinions espressed in this post may not reflect the true opinions of the poster, and may not reflect commonly accepted versions of reality. ) (If you are wondering: yes, I DO hope to live to be as old as my jokes.)
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4665
Good Answers: 804
#11

Re: Isolator between VFD and Motor

02/25/2016 7:21 PM

Nobody I am ware of still sells a Low Voltage (690 or less) Current Source inverter, they are all Voltage Source now.

In Medium Voltage, Rockwell still sells a Current Source inverter and if you find the right person, GE/Converteam can. But other than those, I believe the rest are all VSI now too. But MV is a whole different ball game when it comes to circuit safety.

The damage risk from opening of a switch downstream of a running VFD comes from the fact that in an inductive load supplied by a PWM VSI the inductive kickback potential in the motor can act to make the arc persist longer than it should. As the arc expands when the contacts separate, the PWM DC pulses begin to make the gap act like a capacitive circuit, INCREASING the voltage rapidly. That DV/Dt (Delta in Voltage over Delta in time) can cause transistors to self commutate, meaning they will turn on when not being told to turn on, and that leads to extreme stress on the transistor substrate, followed by (potentially) explosive failure. It might not happen the first time, or the second, or the 73rd, but sooner than later it happens and there is no way to predict when, other than to say there is a POTENTIAL for it to happen the very first time. SOME drives have additional protection built in to decrease the likelihood of a first time failure, but that is not universal and it adds cost, meaning the more "competitively priced" the VFD is, the less likely it is to have these extra steps taken.

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Surrey BC Canada
Posts: 1571
Good Answers: 42
#13
In reply to #11

Re: Isolator between VFD and Motor

02/25/2016 8:05 PM

That was my opinion also.

Back in the 80's the Reliance test floor was being used to test MV inverters - basic design was done by Professor S B Dewan of the University of Toronto. It was a strange mix of people - Reliance supplied the motor and test facility, AB funding the research, and Dewan doing the design. Professor Dewan had taught me the courses on power semiconductor design (and I still have his text book and a hand typed manuscript for his next book that he used as lecture material). Those were great days, but even a 20HP ac drive took up an entire floor mounted cabinet.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Register to Reply 21 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

adreasler (7); GW (7); JRaef (2); Mr. small (1); PWSlack (2); spades (1); TonyS (1)

Previous in Forum: Control Engineering Question - What Drawback is Associated with Gain Compensation?   Next in Forum: Battery Charger - 3 Ph Rectifier High voltage output

Advertisement