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Relativity: Coming to Terms 4: Reality

03/18/2016 11:18 AM

Terms defined in this section: time dilation, length contraction, relativistic mass, theory, reality, post-processing, future, past, present

What parts of relativity are real and which are mathematical constructs mistakenly thought to be real? What is reality anyway?

Physical reality is determined through reasoning and the scientific method while metaphysical reality is determined through beliefs, emotions, consulting sages, divining rods and ancient texts. Ignoring the latter, something's real if it can be measured consistently. But it's more than that. Understanding the measurements correctly requires post-processing to overcome the illusion of perspective. The illusion of perspective can happen for both space and time. The farther away something is from you, the smaller and slower it looks. Yet you know it's not really smaller or slower because you apply post-processing to your observations. Relativists define post-processing as being only applicable to non-relativistic effects. For example, you can't apply your knowledge of relativity to understand why you see time slowing in a moving frame. That is not an optical illusion like a plane flying slower off in the distance due to your perspective, the time is actually slowing for the moving frame due to your perspective. Maybe they should differentiate the terms by calling one post-processing and the other relativistic post-processing.

The theories that describe reality must also be measureable, repeatable, predict the existence of yet unobserved phenomena and be falsifiable or disproven by yet other unobserved phenomena. The Theory of Relativity is based on unproven assumption and convention so I don't understand how it even qualifies as a scientific theory. A scientific theory is more than just an educated guess or a good story tying facts together, Wiki defines it just as much a fact as the facts it ties together. However, both facts and theories can change, unlike enduring beliefs, due to the application of higher resolution tools and through the discovery of new facts.

Measurable and repeatable real events can be plotted as points in spacetime. Relativity assigns two sets of coordinates to each of these points, one set is from a normal right angle x-y axes for the stationary frame and the other is from the angled axes for the moving frame. Lorentz transforms allow conversion between the two sets of coordinates. The time units spacing equals the length units spacing for each axes but because the moving frame's axes are angled, their unit spacing is longer and there are fewer time units and length units corresponding to the stationary axes. This graphically represents time dilation and length contraction. So each event has two labels depending on which coordinate system you're using, two labels for position and two time stamps for each point.

This is where much of the confusion surrounding relativity stems from and I don't have a good understanding of it yet. The points are invariant no matter how many labels you stick on them. To say some are from the future from one perspective because their label has an advanced time stamp on it is like saying your friend is from the future because his watch is running fast. (Not totally correct because his watch running fast due to a mechanical error is not the same as a watch running fast due to relativistic effects on time itself.) However, relativists insist that just by shifting your direction to the stationary frame, you could see through relativistic post-processing that your present included a view of the stationary frame's future that hadn't happened yet in the stationary frame. I think that's BS but I can't prove it. Invariance, simultaneity and the blurring of the distinction between time and distance conspire somehow to draw misleading conclusions about reality from relativity. Here's what I mean:

Is length contraction real or just a mathematical construct of time dilation? Well certain problems in relativity can be tackled from a length contraction perspective or a time dilation perspective but not both. For example, in the muon problem, if you solve it using time dilation you can't simultaneously apply the dilated time over a contracted distance because that would be like dilating the time twice. In fact the formulas for length contraction can be directly converted into the formulas for time dilation. Here's an example of that:

Let's convert t' to x' (time dilation to length contraction). The formula for gamma velocity, Yv=x/t', is critical to understanding how attaching Y to different variables within an equation can change the whole meaning of the equation. As shown in the last section, gamma velocity is the total velocity vector through space time and it equals the distance in the stationary frame per the time taken in the moving frame. Plugging velocity V=x/t into the formula for gamma v we get Yx/t =x/t' which reduces to t=Yt', the formula for time dilation. Now you're looking for a formula for x' that satisfies the formula for gamma v. Yv =Yx/t. If we group Y with t we get the formula for time dilation. If we group Y with x we get x'=Yx the formula for length contraction. Same derivation but two different formulas depending on which variable Y is grouped with. Similar mathemagic can be applied to the Lorentz transformations to convert length contraction to time dilation coordinates. So why have length contraction at all? Why not just have space fixed for all frames of reference, as it is in Brehme diagrams, and only deal with time dilation?

Relativity states that moving frames will have length contraction, increased relativistic mass and time dilation relative to the stationary frame observing it. But none of these phenomena are detected by observers in the moving frame of their own frame. They don't feel their bodies crushing due to length contraction, or that they're gaining weight or that they're starting to move in slow motion. So our perspective of their reality is different from their perspective of their reality. According to our definition of reality, there are now two separate realities, or are there?

Relativists say yes, there are as many realities as there are perspectives. Even though the exact same events happen in the same causal order in all these realities, the timing of the events is off. This is hardly a multiple parallel universe scenario. What's even more suspicious is that two of the effects we're seeing do not persist once the relative velocity between the two frames is reduced to zero. Again that depends to which variable you attach Y in the formula.

Let's look at relativistic mass. You can attach Y to the velocity variable where energy or momentum of a particle goes up as you apply more energy to get it to go closer and closer to the speed of light or you can attach it to the mass variable where people start believing that the mass growing is what's making it more and more difficult to push it closer and closer to the velocity of light. Now we wish to slow down the particle by applying energy in the other direction. But this input of energy doesn't get converted into mass. And what kind of mass is growing on these particles. It seems to be a smooth transition from energy to matter but matter is discrete so you're somehow growing fractions of electrons as the energy increases? . E=mc2 does not mean there's an automatic conversion between energy and matter any more than there's no difference between water and ice. Take an ice cube to the head and tell me there's no difference. Specific conditions are required to convert energy and matter. If you push a car up a hill, you have not added any matter to it which magically reconverts to energy when the car rolls back down the hill. You've just converted potential energy into kinetic energy, no mass to energy conversion is involved.

Isn't it less confusing just to group Y with velocity so that as the velocity increases, the energy imparted into the particle rises exponentially. There is no conversion of energy to matter. Relativistic mass does not persist once the particle slows down. It's the same with length contraction, it does not persist. Time dilation, as can be seen in the twin paradox, does persist. If we brought a GPS satellite down from space, it will have aged less than the atomic clocks it was made with on earth and that age difference will not go away like length contraction or relativistic mass.

However, even if we redefined reality for relativity as something that persists once relative velocity is removed, we still have the problem of the effects of time slowing in a relatively moving frame persisting once the relative velocity is removed. There are still 2 different realities where we see time slowing on a frame moving relative to us but they do not see their time slowing. Length contraction and relativistic mass are just math tricks but time dilation provides a profound redefinition of what reality is.

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#1

Re: Relativity: Coming to Terms 4: Reality

03/18/2016 2:06 PM

Wow! As a former plant manager I used to work for would have asked, "Couldn't you make that shorter?"

Was it Wordsworth that said, "I would have written a shorter letter but I didn't have time!"?

If we ever get to travel faster than light, will we realize it? I would expect that if we had a Warp Drive it wouldn't just be Space Time that was warped after the first trip.

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#2

Re: Relativity: Coming to Terms 4: Reality

03/18/2016 3:29 PM

I have applied post-processing to your discourse.

And while you might make allusions otherwise, I have determined that it is nothing more than drivel.

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#3
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Re: Relativity: Coming to Terms 4: Reality

03/18/2016 4:27 PM

CR4 ADMIN: Deleted Post

Vulgar/Rude/Improper Behavior: This post was deleted because it did not adhere to the behavioral policies of the site. Please review Section 14 of the CR4 Site FAQ and the CR4 Rules of Conduct.

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#4
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Re: Relativity: Coming to Terms 4: Reality

03/18/2016 5:35 PM

I eagerly await your next flogging of electrons in the pursuit of whatever point it is that you are trying so eloquently to misstate.

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#5
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Re: Relativity: Coming to Terms 4: Reality

03/20/2016 7:45 AM

You can lead a mule to water but you can't drink it for him. Maybe you have some specific, somewhat thought-out, counter argument to just one small part of the "drivel" I've posted.

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#6
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Re: Relativity: Coming to Terms 4: Reality

03/20/2016 8:20 AM

Why anyone would bother arguing with someone who says,"If you push a car up a hill, you have not added any matter to it" is beyond me.

Unfortunately, I see nothing in your words that would spark the intelligent.

That does not inflame me, but rather makes me wonder. Why?

You must remember, you chose to post here. I chose to read it.

Which one of us is the bigger fool?

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#7
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Re: Relativity: Coming to Terms 4: Reality

03/20/2016 9:20 AM

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#9
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Re: Relativity: Coming to Terms 4: Reality

03/20/2016 1:38 PM

I am flattered that you continue to condescend to waste your scholarly time with me.

Also that you have inducted me into such a super exclusive club.

Brian Greene may be real famous all over the world, but let me quote to you what your mentor just said, " 'real' means different things to different people".

I have saying from the corn field, "Never argue with a fool, because bystanders may not be able to tell the difference". That's actually a quote from Samuel Clemens, a commoner.

I say that you are too zealous in your condemnation of someone who questions your ramblings. If you were truly convinced that they are firmly grounded in scientific fact you would just ignore me.

After all, they say that ignorance is bliss.

I have to go now. There's a tractor pull coming up on TV.

Tractor pulling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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#10
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Re: Relativity: Coming to Terms 4: Reality

03/20/2016 5:09 PM

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#11
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Re: Relativity: Coming to Terms 4: Reality

03/20/2016 6:12 PM

This will be my last attempt at communication, because,

You said:

This series is called "Coming to terms."

This "series" seems to be only a soliloquy, and not where, "I show what each term means to different people"

You expound on what you think these terms mean to you.

I'm sure you are an intelligent fellow. Quit arguing with someone of my meager intelligence.

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#12
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Re: Relativity: Coming to Terms 4: Reality

03/20/2016 8:21 PM

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#8

Re: Relativity: Coming to Terms 4: Reality

03/20/2016 9:51 AM

Can someone tell me what Jorrie's answer means. I feel the answer is the key to the next level of understanding relativity. Jorrie's response from conventionality of relativity:

You wrote: "One can derive the length contraction formula from the time dilation formula so why even bring in the redundant concept of length contraction, they're the same thing. However, you said time dilation is also not real (because both frames see time dilation in the other) but using the criteria of the twin paradox, one can measure an age difference consistent with time dilation that remains once the relative velocity ends."

This is the crux of the matter. There is coordinate dependent time dilation and then there is proper time dilation. There is coordinate dependent Lorentz contraction, but there is no proper Lorentz contraction. In this sense, the two are different, not 'the same thing'.

However, Lorentz contraction is real in the sense that when you make a real measurement of the length of a passing spaceship, you get a Lorentz contracted value. In this sense Lorentz contraction is 'real', but then, 'real' means different things to different people - a debate that I have no intention of entering.

As long as you have standard synchrony, i.e. Einstein synchronization of clocks, you have Lorentz contraction and the limiting one-way speed is c. The limiting 2-way speed is c, irrespective of the clock sync convention used.

-J

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#13

Re: Relativity: Coming to Terms 4: Reality

03/21/2016 9:01 PM

Part Three hit already the bin. I suspect I do not need to write anything here, which will be gone in a day or two. So take care admins are on it.

The state of your answers lets me think its just ego-driven scribble, not a scientific discussion.

Bye!

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#14
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Re: Relativity: Coming to Terms 4: Reality

03/21/2016 9:30 PM

Your loss, not mine. I'll repost when Jorrie comes back.

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#15
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Re: Relativity: Coming to Terms 4: Reality

03/21/2016 11:07 PM

I hope you don't do so before then. That may be a long wait.

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#16
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Re: Relativity: Coming to Terms 4: Reality

03/22/2016 1:39 AM

Is it just me or is there a vague arrogance in your reply?

Is it just me or are you becoming fixated on Jorrie?

Is it just me that hopes that you wake up and make a point? I guess if you wake up and you know what relativity really means you would not even bother to talk to the simple folks here. So I guess as long as you put more posts up we know that you do not know.

Ya know?

(Posted OT because it is!)

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#17
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Re: Relativity: Coming to Terms 4: Reality

03/22/2016 6:00 AM

You figured that out all by yourself. I don't know so I post, correct. But what you don't know is my arrogance this time is about the fact you seem to be ok with a person being given a position of authority and trust by the admins and he just abuses it and corrupts the integrity of this forum. Maybe you'll have an argument with Tornado some day. So it'll be fine with you if he starts deleting your posts at will? No wonder corruption is so rampant in America, it's viewed as the right way to do things. Pathetic.

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#19
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Re: Relativity: Coming to Terms 4: Reality

03/22/2016 6:04 PM

This another poisonous thread that needs to be deleted in its wretched entirety. The only reason I haven't already done so is because I have temporarily recused myself.

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#21
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Re: Relativity: Coming to Terms 4: Reality

03/23/2016 4:21 AM

I don't know so I post,

Yepp I noticed (figured it all out by myself so to say!). I remember you said that if we can confirm your thinking you understand relativity. This has not happened but is not our fault.

See the main difference between you and I is that I have not tried (out of fear that I do not understand relativity) to understand relativity. You on the other hand seem to focus on overthrowing the existing believe but you do not understand what it means in the first place. Applying common logic means you need to understand the concept to make changes. If you are fiddling with it without understanding you will not be able to prove that you are right.

I just got some interest in the gravitational waves from chat I had with a scientist from an Institut that developed the concept of the measurement (Not LIGO). I will slowly read up on it and digest.

The reason I take it slowly so I do not become bitter (like I feel you are). It will take time and hard work and my personal believe is only a few will ever really understand. I have the curiosity but not the will to pursue this. You should at some point reflect back to yourself if you really want to find out if you are brains enough to understand.

As said earlier, if you know you will not need to post here anymore unless you want to teach us (not a lesson). From time to time a little bit of a selftest is required to keep your footings.

Take care.

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#18

Re: Relativity: Coming to Terms 4: Reality

03/22/2016 1:30 PM

Not sure is anyone is following this anymore, but I thought I would make a few observations and possibly make some corrections. So, here it goes:

Physical Reality as humans interpret it is something that other humans can observe and possibly test.

The slowing of time is relative to the observer just as the Doppler effect does not appear to show up to the observer moving with the device making the waves.

The speed of light being limited may be an accepted theory, but it has not been proven. At one time, the theories about the speed of sound indicated that an aircraft would disintegrate upon reaching that speed. Of course, we now know that was mistaken. So, I try not to indulge in too much theory because frequently it isn't quite as expected. There are plenty of examples of that in history.

I do indulge in exercises such as imagining that I live in a 2 dimensional world, like on a piece of paper. From that perspective, I would most likely know nothing about a third dimension because I could never prove it. If, a 3 dimensional object passed through the paper, it would appear to be a dilation from a point that expanded rapidly and then disappeared, leaving a hole. If it were the first time, then the concept of a hole would be new but impossible to replicate. After all, to replicate it, would require doing something outside of 2 dimensions. So, all I could do is make theories about it.

Knowing how it would be to live in only 2 dimensions brings us to our current understanding. If time is the 4th dimension, but space is the first 3 dimensions that we live in, how can we really expect to know what happens in the 4th dimension?

For a really perspective changing look at reality try this: The true motion of the planets

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#20

Re: Relativity: Coming to Terms 4: Reality

03/23/2016 12:02 AM

How did this nonsense fester all day without effective moderation?

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#22

Re: Relativity: Coming to Terms 4: Reality

03/23/2016 11:57 AM

Please, only constructive comments from this point forward (from all parties), or this thread will be shut down.

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#23
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Re: Relativity: Coming to Terms 4: Reality

03/23/2016 9:44 PM

Just as as side note, you are giving us a tool to rid us of this thread. Would not be working in Ralfs favour!

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#25
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Re: Relativity: Coming to Terms 4: Reality

03/23/2016 10:19 PM

Temptations, temptations!

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#24
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Re: Relativity: Coming to Terms 4: Reality

03/23/2016 10:05 PM

After reading it now I think we should!

Thanks!

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#26
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Re: Relativity: Coming to Terms 4: Reality

03/24/2016 8:44 AM

Oh you pranksters. It'll give me a chance to re-write it in a forum friendly way.

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#27
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Re: Relativity: Coming to Terms 4: Reality

03/28/2016 9:43 PM

Could have done so in the first place!

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#28
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Re: Relativity: Coming to Terms 4: Reality

03/29/2016 4:04 AM

Yes but where would have I found enough pictures to write it in the form of "What is it? Real or not real?"

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#29
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Re: Relativity: Coming to Terms 4: Reality

03/29/2016 9:13 AM

Pictures are powerful. Try it out. Saves you lots of writing and allows you to approach the problem on a different cognitive level.

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