Water storage and recycling, rain, waste

Surface water is relatively easy to come by in Britain, as indicated in the post.

In general terms, collecting rainwater as a substitute for watering the garden is a good investment if the home is connected to a metered supply. At current volume charge rates for water supply and disposal, a proprietary rainwater collection tank with a diverter inserted into the rainwater downpipe from the roof can save about £0.50 GBP each time it is used and the investment, though small, can easily pay for itself in a few months in the Midlands, and maybe a year in a drier part of the world like Essex. If the roof surface is big enough, multiples of the tank can be fed from one diverter to achieve incremental savings with incremental investment.

For an unmetered supply the only driver is one's conscience.

Given the value of providing an underground tank, including one's design and construction time, it probably isn't worth the effort in Britain, which is why it has been so rarely done. It is done widely in Australia, as every drop of water that can be harvested is worth having, and there is the space to build large facilities with impunity. For a structure the size of a domestic swimming pool, its value between what it can do as a leisure facility needs to be balanced against what it can do as a harvesting facility, and structural calculations and planning applications need to be made as a matter of routine according to local circumstances.

If a lot of water is needed to water the garden, and it is coming from a metered supply, rather than providing a tank the first step would be to arrange for the supply that feeds the garden to have a second meter. This meter would be used to calculate the saving to be made by not returning the volume to the municipal sewage system and incurring the charges thereon, which can be as much as 3/4 of the value of one's bills. It will require some careful discussion with the local water supplier to invoke a satisfactory solution, as their income will drop! Although this tactic is rare in domestic situations it is often done on heritage steam railways, where the metered water supplied is evaporated and exhausted to atmosphere by the locomotives rather than returned to the sewage system, and the savings to be made are substantial. As an investment, a meter on such a supply can pay for itself in weeks in terms of the savings to be made on volumetric sewerage charges. Garden centres and nurseries have similar arrangements.

Water is an ideal medium in which biological systems can flourish. Storage of water long-term, particularly that intended for consumption, needs to take this into account. As the levels of biology go up, the potability goes down, and treatment to remove biological impurities becomes important.

Private domestic wells, still to be found in Britain, will normally be relatively small, relying on water percolating through local strata to remove particulates. Research will indicate whether or not an abstraction licence is needed in the case of a new well. A typical installation might have a number of concrete Milton rings embedded in the ground on end, with their centre partly filled with media including greensand and clean gravel. A submersible pump would provide the lift into some sort of raised storage tank to supply the house. In addition, some form of protection is usually provided: filtering to below 5μm with a suitable cartridge filter and zapping with an appropriate ultraviolet lamp should be considered to be the minimum of processing needed to ensure potability, and 5-year sampling and assessment by the local authority should be considered routine. "Whole house" filtration kits are available from a number of suppliers, including a number of DIY chains. Occasionally certain dissolved ions will be found to be above limits for health, and sending that part of the domestic supply intended for consumption through a package Reverse Osmosis unit can be considered at that point; there are a myriad of pieces of equipment intended for yachting applications that can be adapted for domestic use.

Crabtree, could you leave some room for us to comment?

Rainwater collection is normal on the mainland, here you need to integrate it in your new build house.

I use it to flush the toilets and water the garden.

End 80's beginning 90's we had some mayor floodings and the idea came that is was perhaps our own fault: roof runnoff went direct to the sewers and the system got clogged as soon as it starts to rain heavily. one of the solutions was that everyone should install a rainwater collector and use it in his house for toilets and other applications that don't need potable water. Since then the effort of adding the systems to houses certainly had its effect on both sides: we can have longer dry periods without running out of potable water supply and it can rain longer before the rivers go to high.

Older people use it to feed the washing machine as it is soft, but this brings more maintenance.

Gwen, you don't need any help in this matter, your comments ALWAYS add a lot of value, no matter who went before!!

I do admit though that Crabtree did an excellent job as well.....

By the way, your English is excellent, was English your first language or not?

English is my third language, I was a fan of Allo Allo, learned a lot there.

You did not learn well from 'allo, 'allo as you speak/write the language well!!!! If you get my drift!

So i guess you have French & Flemish as the first 2....

Inverse order, Flemish - French - ... - German too.

My boss lives near Frankfurt am Main, I spend way to much time in Germany.

You know the big differnece is: we are only 6 million, so films and series on TV rarely get dubbed in our language. Mostly animation for kids get dubbed, in general in Dutch and the big successes also in Flemish.

So we are used to hear other languages, and pick them up quite rapidly. My son is a fan of the Simpsons and he is picking up that english quite well. (11 years)

DUUUHHHH!!!

Hopefully he will not sound like Homer!

With regard to films in the original language, I have seen this to be true in other small countries like Sweden & Finland and guess what, they mostly all speak accent free with large vocabularies.....

Being in a large country is not all positive!!!

France could use a lot of this!!!!

The British version of a second language is to shout louder in English!!

I used to answer phones on a customer service desk, those calling in from the UK were hard, we have native englishman who not always can make up what the customer tries to explain.

Now for once and ever: "Don't join the buswires"

I hope the question is answered.

Don't feel bad, there are several English accents that I have trouble with. even local variations in language can be difficult to follow.

Yeah, that old chestnut, the house before the plumbing or the plumbing before the house? We've thought about knocking it down and rebuilding it. Is this the moment to decide?

I would like to know/see what sort of installations you are talking about Gwen. Is this just roof water stored, soiled and then put into the sewer or is there more to it?

Maybe that's the best way.

I certainly agree that we've created flooding that wouldn't have happened or been so bad before. For years my wife and I have been asking where all the run-off from the years of building development is supposed to go. We had a guy on the radio not long ago saying that intensive farming has also contributed. He was saying that more sheep/cattle per hectare packs the soil. I'd just point to the thousands of miles of plastic pipe farmers have been burying in their fields over recent years. In fields around us the ends are visible sticking out of the banks of the stream. Then they'll say the have to irrigate!!

Sound like a rant???

Oh yes, I meant to mention, we have the silty remains of an old well too. Great snail breeding!

I appreciate the ideas Crabtree, thanks. Quite honestly I'm not thinking about it strictly from a fiscal point of view. We'd probably make some sort of a pond in time and we have a blocked soakaway which will have to be dug out, or a gully diverted to the combined sewer, so there's money to spend anyway. I'd first like to explore the possibilites, then look at cost.

its value between what it can do as a leisure facility needs to be balanced against what it can do as a harvesting facility

Its weirdness needs to be balanced against its practicality upon needing to move house.

Weird? You guessed my middle name. I'm not hoping for a solution that'll seriously devalue the house or create much extra work, indoors or out.

Something else I forgot to mention is that we seem to be on thick clay. Anyone know what 'puddling' involves?

I'd love to have a pond with a puddled clay lining...mine is rubber..mmmm rubber.

Dunno, i'd guess it needs the stones taking out and then its trodden to a nice even layer...bit like pugging clay for making pots?

I'd guess you'd want to avoid it drying out too much, so a system of overflow from your gutters/waterbutts to keep it topped up, with some sort point where if it overfills it will run/soak away in a harmless or decorative manner (into the old well)...

Could make the well into a granny annexe for the Mother in Law? (I never said that honest...this keyboard is possessed!)

A ditty for you...at no extra charge...

Doctor Bell fell down a well

and broke his collar bone

A doctor should attend the sick

and leave the well alone!

I was given a great book about the Victorian civil servants and engineers who introduced piped water supplies. I read that the dams were 'pudded' without much more said than that they used carts (horse or ox powered) to pack down the clay as it was added. There was usually a core wall of puddled clay and I'm puzzled as to how that was made.

Doubtless reading this influenced me in some way subconsciously.

hello,

u can do like treating the waste water, but it gonna take u few test to make sure it is safe.but as long as u who has to drink it, then its ok.because in waste water, there is a lot of bacteria, even u add filteration, or ozone light treatment or membran or maybe R.O, u still have to test it for human consumption.anyway, i like to know ur idea more.

but still i dont understand, u can still collect the rain water in a drums or something, and just use it.

take care.

Crabtree has just about said it all in one post, so a very good "moaning" to him for his time and trouble. Very well put and said.

With regard to the query about re-using waste water in the house, I personally would say "don't" bother as you need a lot of expensive equipment, or you could end up very ill. Its certainly not an amateur area to work in.

A middle of the road possibility, is only to divert bath and sink water for garden usage, provided that only mild detergents/soaps are used....and nobody pees in the bath!!!

Joke:- " A gentlemen is someone who steps out of the bath to pee! "

Drinking rainwater is possible with suitable filters, but I would not recommend it. In Germany it is actually illegal, though many firms sell the equipment! In about 100 years time, it might be necessary, but not yet!

May I suggest that the re-use of properly filtered rainwater in the home be confined to flushing toilets, washing clothes and maybe bathing......but use the water unfiltered for the garden.

If you are going to store the rainwater underground, there are huge plastic tanks available, which are fine as long as you do not want to drive your car over them!

If installing under a driveway or yard with cars etc, then I would recommend concrete tanks, much cheaper, but also much heavier (you need a crane) but installation is actually easier as you do not have to fill them with expensive drinking water, just to allow the hole to be refilled!!!! Which is the case with most plastic tanks, but they do not tell you in advance!!

I would personally ONLY use concrete tanks, as far as I can tell, their lifetime could be measured in hundreds of years, but plastic??????

Water has been stored in concrete for at least a Century in the UK and other countries, but what might leach out of plastics when confronted with mildly acid rainwater for example ?????

In my garden the plants live or die by their own efforts, they get no help from me.

In my garden, if I do anything myself, the plants are guaranteed a short unproductive life......

Ever heard of someone having green fingers? Mine are brown.......

Nigh: I happily held the same view untill my 'conversion'

Thanks for the ditty Del. Helped my well being. Anyone ever seen a treacle well?

Sorry, devaluing my own thread now!

Hi Gwen we are all sitting comfortable so do tell us about your rainwater storage.

Is it filtered?

Does it have any chemical additives?

Where is the storage tank?

Is it tightly covered to stop mosquitoes getting in?

If the tank runs dry, how is the switch over to mains water done?

Cheers

Del

OK,

I have a 80m² roof and 10000 liter buried tank.

As the tank is below the garden (50cm of soil over it) the mosquitos can't use it as breeder. In the tank there is a pump, driven by a pressioswitch in the house.

A network of DN15 piping distributes the water to the garden shed and into the house. It runs to the top where I have two plastic 1000l drums (pallets)

These drums are my spare volume and moderate the temperature in the attic (in summet the water absorb the heat that comes through the roof and in winter they cool down slowly. 2000 liter of water do contain a lot of heat.

When the toilet flushes the pump starts and fills the toilet header again. As simple as that. once in 5 years I need to empty the big tank and clean it out. Dust collets at the bottom and this needs to be removed once in a while (the period that I need to bring the tank back to a minimal level is covered with the two top tanks. (approx 3 weeks of service) The head is 4m for the highest level in house: still OK for a toilet.

I'm planning to connect the top tanks to the washing machine, as this water is usually cleaner than the fresh water, and warmer so that I win some electric energy for the washing proces.

the pump is a special: due the natural form of my yard I did place the underground tank in the back yard, so that in case of overfilling the water dous not enter the house (I have a 2m difference between the street and the garden, so I have to pump all wastewater) On a flat terrain you can put the tank near to the house and put a cheap pump inside. Those pumps can be bought for € 100,- and have all the driving electrics integrated. (pressure switch)

You also need an expansion vase, to avoid the pump for being switched on/off continously the cheap pumps have this also integrated.

The 10000L tank costed me approx € 1000,- installed which is resonable, you can have them cheaper now. The state is subsidizing the systems but I choze not to step into this route: then they know that you have it and use it and later they can charge you for it. (as they do now for wells)

Cheers Gwen, nice reply!

That's a lot of plumbing!

How do you clean the tank? Does someone come and pump out the sediment?

I don't suppose you climb in though a little hole with a dustpan and brush!

last solution is indeed the way to do it: put a ladder through the manhole and go in. A good day's work and the rain can come.

You have my sympathies!

cheers

Del

Sorry if I'm pestering you..I'm sure the other guys want to know too, but they're too shy to ask...

What filtering do you have on the inlet end and where is it...Coarse mesh at the down pipe inlet?....old pair of tights over the end (joke..but standard technique for water butts in UK!) ?

I just like splashing about with water...!

I hope you check for dangerous gases in some way before entering the tank or at least ventilate well as some gases (CO2 for example) are heavier than air and can collect in such tanks.

Professionals have special equipment to test the air quality & to ventilate when necessary.....there can also be a danger of an explosion with some heavy gases.....

It is a question of common sense: don't do this on your own. Always make sure that there is someone with you, who can call help when something happens.

My son wanted to do the low work as the high work was to heavy for him (dragging baskets with mud up), I kept on talking with him so that I know his condition was OK.

My tank is also not connected with the municipal sewer system (it is above my tank so it would fill the tank quite rapidly) most gasses in those low points come from the sewer system that is connected.

Aeration is also good, leave it open for somehours before you enter it.

According to the two professional German Cistern installers I spoke to some years ago, that is still risky....especially if you are not strong enough to carry an inert body out of a small opening and not to breathe yourself at the same time.....

Plant matter like roof moss or leaves can disintegrate and make a type of sewer gas I am told.....you do not need to be connected to the sewer.....

Positive ventilation is still required and German regulations (they tell me!) for such work, requires tests AND positive ventilation....

I agree entirely with the lack of filters INTO the tank, more problems than they are worth, but in Germany, they often use a type of filter "basket", hanging on chains to catch some of the big stuff. It isplaced in the top of the tank, but not sealed in any way, so if it gets suddenly full, the water just overflows into the tank....

That is why I say: someone who can call for help.

The basket filters are indeed a solution.

I know of in line self cleaning filters for the downpipes of the roof, they have an opening and the filter material is mounted so that the dirt is flushed out, most of the water goes to the tank. I didn't buy them as they were quite expensive (a patented gadget)

yes, thanks Gwen for all that. I'm still a little puzzled over one or two details. This water, is it just collected from the roof and taken down into the underground tank? Can surface flood water get in, or how is flood water prevented from getting in? Are the two reservoirs in the loft (roof space) acting as cold water 'header' tanks for the toilet(s) wash m/c etc, filled by the pump. Or does the pump pressurise the toilet supply directly? (dumb question I guess, where else does the water from those 2 tanks go??) Not sure about the expansion vase, perhaps an accumulator/pressure regulator?

Particularly grateful for some actual figures, great help to getting 'grounded'!

The top tanks can be filled by opening a valve, the normal activities rely on the pump. The tanks normally are just filled and waiting for the case I need to switch off the pump or in case I run out of water. (only happens when I have filled the swimming pool, normally I get more water from above than I can use)

The expansion vase is to keep the system under a stable pressure. It acts as an accumulator.

Surface water can't enter the system, I prevent this with a cover. I don't filter the roof runoff, it just enters the underground tank, I have the experience that clogging filters do more harm than letting the stuff pass. It floats or goes to the bottom, so It is not entering the pump, which is approx 20cm above the bottom. Putting it lower let's him suck in the mud, which is not appreciated by my wife.

Cheers...good practical information like this is really helpful.

'...which is not appreciated by my wife.'

Gulp!... in UK Gwen is a woman's name...I'm glad I didn't start getting flirty!

Here it is used for both.

But as you might know, here a marriage is not limited between different sexes.

I'm male, perhaps I should start a users group: males having female names for some regions in the world.

What do I know?..I'm a bloke pretending to be a Cat !!

More help, thanks again Gwen. I could install something very similar. I might not go for 2x1000l loft tanks. Our house still has the timbers from the days when it was thatched (old fashioned eco-friendly roofing material) with additional lightening holes provided by insects. Not woodworm - 5mm dia!! (That reminds me of a tale of my grandfathers during his time in airframe manufacture.)

I'd love to keep the roof temp under control though. Presently all the roof water is taken off into...?? Underground soakaways I suppose, not seen any evidence of them entering the sewer at any rate. Unfotunately they're all around the house so it would mean some digging to collect all the downpipes into one tank (thinks: who said anything about 1 tank? I suppose I could use the well on the one side but I'd have to give it some kind of overflow).

I'm disappointed . . . All this time I thought you were a pretty danged smart female engineer, which are few and far and between!

By the way, I watched a demonstration of ozonation of a runoff pond on a dairy farm to purify the water. The US military is interested in water purification, as it is in short supply in the middle east. As it turned out, the coilform bacteria nearly disappeared after recirculating the pond water for several hours, and the turbidity decreased dramatically. If the water is treated in batches, which I have also seen, it turns clear within several minutes, and there are no traces of toxic bacteria.

Now that's interesting. Our instincts tell us 'stagnant water bad, running water good'. What's going on within?

A modest amount of searching has revealed a couple of useful things. There are specialists who will come and install a reed-bed for you that will clean up 'grey' water and even household effluent. e.g. http://www.yes-reedbeds.co.uk and www.eildlife-landscaping.co.uk

And I've learnt a bit more about puddle clay , or how to puddle clay: http://handbooks.btcv.org.uk/handbooks/content/section/2443

Simple! just need to take a(nother) month off work!!

Dig the pond...by a barrel of beer...have a puddling party...

Beer? Can I come?!?

I guess the (w)Right brothers were only successful in their bachelor days?

Do you really think the wives would have put up with their crazy ideas?

I would just stay home: what the english call beer is not exactly how we see it.

And I thought Belgian beer is as close to that which the English have for centuries enjoyed as beer as any? I'm thinking Chimay here, not that wee-coloured stuff served cold to disguise it's lack of flavour!

Now you can add me to the list.

Well volunteered, thanks. Where is Glabbeek incidentally? I used to stay with a friend in a place called Steerebeek just outside Bruxelles, in my younger days. There I gained a very little experience of Belgian beers. Respect!!

Same side of Brussels, other side of Leuven. Not that far away. (30km)

But Glabbeek is the smalles community in the region, with the lowest inhabitants / sqr km. No wonder that you dont find it on your globe.

You're right, I don't see it on Google 'maps', only places with names like Bierbeek and Hoegaarden!!

You are a bit to low:

,

From hoegaarden go up, over Tienen, through bunsbeek, you will find Glabbeek.

Good luck, I have a Palm and Hoegaarden in the fridge.

Talking about Beer, its hard to beat a Leff Blond 6, 6% Alcohol by volume, well cooled and I do live in Germany.....where we have a few good Beers.

By the way for Germany, a draught Königs Pils is a good start!!!

Or a decent Weizen Beer here is called Erdinger, which has a much better Beer festival (much much smaller, the beer tastes better and its also cheaper, accomodation too!!) than Munich and its usually in August....

Thanks, Gwen. Duly noted. Does your Palm work better if you keep it in the fridge? I've heard something about erasing the 'memory' of rechargeable batteries if you put them in the freezer?

Andy, when I worked in Ruesselsheim many of my colleagues favoured Bitburger, but I gained a fondness for Wahrsteiner. All 'mass produced' stuff really. Skittle evenings were often rounded off with several rounds of Slivovic. Never been to the Oktoberfest but Hessens Weinfests were my favourite time.

whose for some recycled water?

It certainly tastes better.

Can someone help us to come back on track, I have the feeling that our initial discussion was on a different subject.

Do please remember that all the water on this planet has at some point in time passed by a Dinosaur or two and a lot of the human race......

....recycling is nothing new!!

The Geman Beers you mention are fine, but Leff is really the best, Tesco (if you live in the UK) sometimes have it in bottles, but Draught is even better....its well worth a trip to Belgium!!! The French sell it as well in many good bars etc.. Sadly, I never see it in Germany....

Please checkout the following English language link:-

http://www.brewlikeamonk.com/2005/10/04/leffe-blond-a-lager/

Sorry, its written Leffe, not Leff. Apologies to all.....Ask Gwen how to say it!!!

Try to stop the Reinheidsgebod and we are able to sell our beers in Germany.

There is a fundamental difference between Pils/Lager and what we call beer.

Apart from taste? Yes, let's get back to water, I'm at least 2hrs45mins away from a pint.

I'm so lucky: I live one hour ahead,

Cheers

I've been on a couple of tours of one of our local breweries, Harveys of Lewes. Amongst their fine beers they also produce some alcohol free versions & remove the alcohol by osmosis. The by-product is water which is about 5% proof which unfortunately they are not allowed to sell. It has very little taste but still has a bit of a kick.

...add some carbon dioxide and you have Pop For father......

Ah yes, Harveys, takes me back to my Worthing days, beer and bonfires and beer and.. Now I'm sounding like an arsonist.

About this blessed water ......

We're getting close to bonfire season, 13th October for Hastings then all the others follow.