What's More Important: Knowledge or Products of Knowledge?

I believe that life isn't about knowing. Life is about trying.

Most of time people talked only about realization of truth. Each one has to try to realize. Realization is only knowledge but that can also be embedded and hidden. Take the case of gene of all animals or the crystal structure of the atoms and molecules. The genetic code is an embedded knowledge form and is the seed of its own creation, restoration and propagation to millions of years and further extending evolution.

The rules, that govern the universe, give shapes and quantize. Same things we use in our memory system of our brain and also on the paper and some time on stones and using concrete, metal etc.

Some of us want to try and feel, some are too lazy to do any thing.

Our attitude that others should know and appreciate what we do is also a driving force. Appreciation that puts us above others and satisfy our ego may also force us to continue. Self satisfaction rarely is the driving force.

I have read one book which is in payer of Load Rama written by Tulasidas called Ram Charit Manas. Which means treatise of character of Ram. The writer writes that the book is written for non other than for his own self satisfaction.

We all do things for some degree of satisfaction of the self and yet there is this factor that others should also appreciate it else we may not like to do it.

I was also wondering about the man and woman relationship. Is it for the satisfaction of each one individually or both. We can not notice how others feel so I think it is much to our own satisfaction that we do things. Something may be offending to others so we do not do in public.

Are these factors playing role in our technical attitude also? I am not sure about it but they must be there. You can not do this you can not do that is often told to genetic engineers. I think there are many things we do not do because others feel we should not do them.

Good one!

That's really just the difference between science and engineering. Scientists expand our knowledge, engineers create with it.

But they also go hand in hand. The Hubble is an excellent example - it's both a result of applying our technical knowledge and has vastly increased our knowledge of the universe.

So I would make three categories, knowledge, ordinary material applications of knowledge (such as the Taj Mahal), and tools which are the material application of knowledge but also the means for creating new knowledge.

So, there is urge for greater knowledge and it has nothing to do with immediate need. Tools for accessing further knowledge are just the requirement. Hence, tools are often created for the purpose. Knowledge hunting need not have a purpose other then new knowledge for knowing the secrets of the universe or laws of the universe. Perhaps there is hope that the knowledge will come handy some time later.

Expression of talent is different from knowing the truth of the universe. The research is the hunt for the truth and talent expression in different forms of arts is like worship.

I have just now learnt that, as the ice is melting on the poles, USSR has placed its flag on North Pole for claiming its oil and perhaps the next thing expected is the USA may place its Flag on South pole. Alaska may become free from ice soon. The rest of world will be driven into greater poverty, some areas may sink in the sea. What we see now is changing environment that was deliberately made for a purpose.

Human race will face more dramatic changes in coming years than it has seen in the movements of Europeans into the rest of the world in last 1000 years. How soon people will start looking at these changes is yet to be seen and how countries will get grouped and will exert power on each other will also affect the rest of the world. We will see a drastic transformation.

All research finally meant for resources of the world and power that shows superiority. It has nothing to do with passion of pure knowledge and care for the people of the world. No one will care, and it is tug of war all the time. I want more that you type attitude will remain here for ever.

A well rounded or informed individual must have a basic knowledge of a broad range of subjects as well as of products to solve most problems presented. What other purpose is there to have a vast knowledge of useless information that is of no use

If some one asked 'What and where is the 'Black Tajmahal?' not 1 in 100 or more denizens of CR4 would have the foggiest idea of what was meant. Not a critical point of reference but one of interest to some.

Knowing how and where to find desired information is a valuable and helpful trait that few individuals have. Note how many questions can be answered with a bit of ingenuity and inquiry on the internet. CR4 would shrivel up if those who don't do their own "homework" did their own inquiries on the net.

If some one can pay for whatever research you are doing then it becomes worth doing. However, some people did all that not for money but for their own understanding of the nature. Think of much of the work of Einstein on General theory of relatively and Maxwell on probability. Lots of work on Big Bank theory also came in this way. Pure science research has nothing to do with the outcome. I met Dr. Abdus Salam, Nobel Laureate and his quest for fundamental particle was so deep that it was his life in true sense. People have vision o different kinds and perhaps something inside drives them to think in a particular direction beyond bread and butter need. Some of them work for technology that may become a product of application but some work just for the sake of knowing things. Urge to know the unknown is very strong and like a burning fire that keeps men and women to sacrifice the best of their lives just for that knowledge alone. Whether it gives them joy is very relative and we can say, yes, it does. If you succeed in whatever you are doing, you get joy.

In India 80% became farmers as that was related to living and doing something for living. It is no longer an act of joy now for the new generation of the same people so they are leaving all that for good and are becoming engineers and scientists and others. This transformation is rapid now.

Reminds me of a story my wife's uncle told me a couple of years ago. He is a soil scientist. A company rang him up and asked about the properties of a certain soil affecting concrete pipes. He told them that it would be the usual fee, and he would get back to them in the next couple of days. Hung up the phone turned around in his chair, picked a book out of the bookcase and looked up the answer.

Booked himself and wife flights and accommodation for a European holiday for a month.

Rang the company up and told them the answer.

Sometimes it IS not what you know but how and where to find it.

You are right. Using the knowledge at right time matters a great deal and it hardly matter the way it is acquired or accessed. Knowledge to money ratio is never a straight line fit for all of us.

Shyam, when you speak of "knowledge", such as quantum mechanics or probabiltiy theory, you speak of a tool that is meaningless to much of the world's population. Normally, a high degree of education and concentration in a specific related field is required to even understand these tiopics, much less use them and appreciate them. When you talk of the Taj Mahal, beautiful waterfalls, and other Earthly beautiful physical things, essentially all people can sense and appreciate the beauty of these things. Isn't that why cameras were invented and developed, primarily to save these beautiful images? I would have to say that the images that we think of as beautiful are more important to everyone than the limited specialized formulas and theories, regardless of how important these are to most engineers, physicists, etc.

Even though quantization is now only put into words but has been part of our civilization all along. We see precipitation of clouds, formation of ponds, lakes, and rivers. We also see ourselves in discrete forms and not in powder or water or air forms. The entire system is trying to get into wonderful shapes right from finest particles, atoms to stars, galaxies. That the information in the universe is more preserved in shapes and is the source of the ultimate stability of the universe itself. The binding forces from walls to no walls, all form quantized levels and these are seen as shapes filled by something. I do not need any quantum mechanics to experience the universe and its beauty. The desire for knowledge is driven by your perception and inherent intuition first. You feel first and then you try to know about your feeling in mathematical terms. You dream first and then try to explain your dreams. I always dream. Even a real life experience which comes first then only comes its knowledge.

The intelligence works on input, analysis, input from acquired knowledge, conclusion, action and sometime preservation of new idea as knowledge if that idea was interesting one or shocking one.

Our own intelligence directs us to do things. You also get used to things that were not so good before but may become good in time.

I lived near one Tamil Temple and those people used to play Nadeswaram on loud speakers at 4 AM. I couldn't get sleep in those days. Later on when I learnt about the same instrument being played in marriages, I felt all right about it and now can enjoy hearing all that was intolerable noise some time ago.

Do you relish a Lion hunting a like looking deer? It is really shocking to me. However, when you know that the only way a Lion can survive is just that then you close your eyes on good and bad. Many things are realized in time and some we accept and some we don't accept. There may be LOGICAL justification for each and every thing and it does not matter how bad things are, they can be justified by some LOGIC anyhow. Some one ruling over you is also forcing you to behave in a manner and then you are not free even in your freedom. Rules can come and go so you dance on the tunes of the rulers. These rulers are everywhere like air around you. I think you know then and you see them all around you. Don't believe my theory then try to act free anywhere and you will know your degree of freedom immediately.

Hi Shyam,

You said "the only way a Lion can survive is just that then you close your eyes on good and bad".

Good and bad are completely human concepts! To the lion, killing a deer is not good or bad, it is simply dinner. Only we humans attach an emotional value to such things that are completely natural in nature. By the same token, floods, earthquakes and all other natural events are only considered bad by humans. Animals don't evaluate, they just do what they need to in order to survive. The ability to perceive truth and beauty is what distinguishes us from all other creatures.

Earlier you said "Our attitude that others should know and appreciate what we do is also a driving force. Appreciation that puts us above others and satisfy our ego may also force us to continue. Self satisfaction rarely is the driving force".

I agree with you completely on that. With the possible exception of a few rare individuals, self satisfaction is never the driving force for achievement. Pure altruism is a fallacy! We never give anything without expecting something in return. You can take that as far as you like, the answer is still the same. If we, for example, donate a large amount of money to a worthy, or charitable cause, did we do it for the good it may do for others? No, we did it for the "warm, fuzzy" feeling we got because whatever good the donation causes results in the beneficiarie's approval of us for having done it. I'm not suggesting that it's bad to do things for others, just be aware of why you're doing itl. Even a wealthy philanthropist does so for their personal legacy.

The question is, does altruism have a place in the pursuit of knowledge or the construction of material things? Do we create beauty because we think the creation is beautiful? I think we realy do it because we expect someone else to also think it is beautiful and therefore to approve of our creation.

Did the builders of the Tajmahal have the benefit of others in mind? Perhaps, but external approval in some form or other most likely dominated their motivation.

Regards,

-John

If you create something then sure it is your ego first rules the purpose. You do it for self or to please some one or to gain something out of it, this knowledge comes only after you know what you can do. However, your first creation will always be the realization of your talent and then the next one could be marketing of the talent in any form beyond self satisfaction. Unless you know your value or some one gives value to you, you have no idea of the self in terms of value. For some it may take lot time to know the self power.

If you are paid for things and some idiot is using public money and forced labor on you then such creations are more for public show using your talent by hiring or forcing and is being used for a cheap publicity. Such things like Tajmahal were created in this manner. People are more free these days so they need not act now under pressure.

I can not say same thing about space shuttles, Air BUS, B2 bombers, Hubble Telescope or Hoover Dam. These are involvements of people, risks taken by the people by funding and there is a purpose and beauty in inherent involved complexity of the creation. Such things are also done to prove superiority and there is some amount of ego is also involved of those are funding the projects. However, they also have to show the purpose.

If Ethiopia is funding dark energy and black matter research then I think their people should question all that but in USA it is all right to burn public dollars.

John-john You wrote..."If we, for example, donate a large amount of money to a worthy, or charitable cause, did we do it for the good it may do for others? No, we did it for the "warm, fuzzy" feeling we got because whatever good the donation causes results in the beneficiaries approval of us for having done it."

Sorry mate, but the beneficiaries of your largese probably won't care about what your thinking. They probably just care where they next meal, clothes are coming from or if their going to have a roof over their head. I feel sorry for you if you can't donate to a charity without hoping someone is thinking about how good you are. I do get a warm and fuzzy feeling when I donate either money, food, toys or clothes to a charity, not because i want someone less privileged than me being grateful but because it's the RIGHT thing to do. I personally donate anonymously because it's a donation. But whether you donate anonymously or shout it from the roof tops, it doesn't matter. All that matters is that you do it. From $0.50, or a toy or a crusty jumper your aunt Mable knitted one year or half a million dollars, just do it because you can.

Hope real soon that you realise that not everyone cares what people think.

I've got a coffee table made from bamboo that I've been carving for 15 years. I don't really care what anyone thinks of it. But its mine. Do you paint? I don't think Van Gogh gave a crap if anyone liked his paintings, to my knowledge only one sold and that was to his brother ( Not sure of these facts) but that didn't stop him at all. Thank any god you want. He painted either because he loved it or hated it (tortured soul) certainly it appears not for the money or fame.

Hi geomech,

I think you've twisted what I said. Because you have a conscience and do the RIGHT thing is laudable and I applaud you for it. Does your spouse, your children, your parents, your pastor, or anyone else know that you've made "anonymous" contributions? If you've let even one other soul know about it then you have sought approval for your actions, perhaps even subconsciously.

My personal belief is that truth and honesty are what you do in the dark. I try to model my thoughts and actions on this principle.

I believe I've stated that there are exceptions but that they are rare. I find it hard to believe that you've worked lovingly on your bamboo table for that long without having shown it to someone, spouse, etc., with pride. If I'm wrong then maybe you're one of those exceptions.

I think Van Gogh painted out of anger with himself. I do believe he was slightly mad.

Michelangelo however, most definitely sought external approval.

I still say pure altruism does not exist.

Regards,

-John

Nothing is done without a purpose. Hence, the very first starting point is to satisfy that purpose which is the primary goal. Others, appreciating the same purpose or you look for further approval means your fist goal was not enough for the purpose or it became a partial purpose after completion of the task.

My mother and father adopted a son before my birth and I happens to be the eldest real son of them. I have never see my adopted elder brother. However, once I was digging the mothers room size trunk make of wood, I looked into her piles of silk cloth and found one document in which she had a will to donate very large amount of property in the name of that adopted son after her death and in real life he was allowed to use even when she was surviving. Neither my mother not my father ever talked about this in the family or with their friends. I was the only one who asked my mother about the document and she told about it without any emotion. We never talked about it again for another 20 years till the death of my mother. My father lived another 10 years and I never asked him about it and he never told about it and my brothers and sisters do not yet know about it. I also felt not to talk about it to them as their greed may hurt what my mother and father wished. This was only one event that I knew about my parents, but they were full of such things and those always came as surprise to me. In my marriage few ladies came to join and called themselves my sisters, and I learnt from my mother that they were also adopted, educated and got married and lived in their new families. Most of them were not from my community so my parents were highly liberal in their social acts and they were highly silent about what they were doing. They look like impossible thing now, but I lived with then for 50 years without knowing the secrets of their passion and inner strength. They lived highly contended life without any kind of visible unhappiness and they told me that they wanted to move on to new life after this life goes and they moved further to where they wanted to go. My father believed in preachings of Geeta but never went to any temple for worship. He worked on farms even when he was 75. He died at 88.

I think MK Gandhi in his later life has lived one of the greatest possible life. There were others also who lived dedicated life. Mother Theresa, Binova Bhave, Baba Amte and many others are such great examples. We hardly see any ego in these people and their purpose remain just one in their life. They were born to be what they became to be one like themselves.

In Between birth death, many of us wander aimlessly looking for charge that will be ever lasting. There is no such thing in real. Only some find purpose of life in doing something with great passion and life becomes an example for others. It is rarely repeated. Hence, I can say that each one of us is now discovering the goal for one's own life and has not yet found one worth continuing in rigid form. I think engineering or science or any other professions themselves are very near to fixed goals. When to take up to such education, you are setting up the goal of your life also to some extent.

To express your mind in poetry or painting or music or in any other forms of art is never a real of you. It is always an imagination and your expression power which is manipulated for others to experience in that way in which you wanted them to experience. Water of the river never flows in straight line, so is the art. Your thoughts are altered in time and what you see is the final thing is the shape of the river and the intensity of the water which made it.

Johnjohn, Sorry if you thought that i twisted what you wrote, I wasn't trying to.

I just was trying to make the point that it doesn't matter where the donation comes from, just that it does. Ninety percent of the time no one knows that i donate, but as a family when we have unused clothes, toys or blankets we do donate as a family but we just put them in a local charity bin. We spare what we can. Yes, it does make you feel warm and cuddly but not because we get some personal satisfaction out of it but the feelings come from helping people that will never know who you are but just that someone does care.

Sorry I know that I'm doing that twisting thing again aren't I?

I buy Legacy Badges but never wear the badge. To me thats showing off.

Ooh I donate aren't I'm a good boy.

Yeah, you got me on the Bamboo coffee table. I have shown it to my wife and kids but I couldn't hide something like that for 15 years. Although I don't know whether you would call it pride, maybe I'm just subconsciously trying to teach my kids that it's not the destination thats important but the things you experience along the way that matter. (wow, that's a bit Deep) (What are you doing to me Johnjohn?) Anyway I don't think that my wife ever expects me to finish it.

Yeah, I think that Van Gogh was a bit trippy but wasn't it Magic Mushrooms.

Yeah, Mick was in it just for the money.

(I still say pure altruism does not exist.) You might be right. But try this.

According to the entry in Wikipedia if I donate something without anyone seeing or knowing about . I get no outside rewards or benefits of recognition except a happy feeling I'm acting in a pure altruisic manner.

(From Wikipedia -- Pure altruism is giving without regard to reward or the benefits of recognition.)

Thanks johnjohn you certainly made me think, but that's the whole point of CR4 to broaden and at the same time shrink your horizons.

I would have to say that the images that we think of as beautiful are more important to everyone than the limited specialized formulas and theories, regardless of how important these are to most engineers, physicists, etc.

As an artist, I certainly appreciate the importance of beauty and art, but art never cured a disease or created a new way to feed the hungry. Only the limited specialized formulas and theories of science can do these things.

Survival has been an inherent force field equation of the nature which tells us to give priority to things that will let us be there and let our next generation also to be there. If we fail to create that force field strong enough in time to experienced forced action on the self, we will become fossils in time like many others we now know why.

Simple fact that hunger and thirst becomes a greatest priority over all other priorities is the very nature of survival which is predominant over all other things otherwise we think as civilization. Experience the life of the most deprived one and you will learn more than all that can ever be learnt using books or computers. This model is real and all about the life and its capability to survive.

I have come up with a personal definition of knowledge that works for me, and perhaps can help in this discussion. Knowledge is the ability to predict the future. I do not mean predicting who is going to win the next election, but, rather, knowing that certain actions now will result in desired outcomes in the future. The products of knowledge (i.e., the Taj Mahal, or any of the "Seven Wonders" of either the ancient or the modern world) are temporary. The ability to replace them when they decay (i.e., the knowledge of how to fabricate them), is far more important than the objects themselves.

You can never know the future and can only speculate it. Our brain is excellent fuzzy system and very much capable to take decisions by taking small risks very often. We are never free from risks, not even in walking or sitting in a chair. We believe and keep pushing the body this way and that way to keep it where we want it to be. If you forget to control the urinary valve then you will urinate in your under cloths. Do we realize that? We are controlling stabilizing so many things in the human body at a time that we even do not know how many of them are controlled by brain and all those things in a fuzzy manner.

Apparent Knowledge is only a small part of the gross knowledge of the human system. We do not have full knowledge of our knowledge system or intelligence. We simply use part of it and remain happy. If your door of another knowledge opens up then only you realize bit more than what you knew before. Perhaps if you meditate then more doors will open for you. I meditate in dreams or dreams do all that for me.

Sleep is for the brain by the brain. Dreams are by the brain for what? Some people get scary dreams and some feel another world in dreams and some like me get ideas in the dreams. Only thoughts can be forced and dreams are out of our control. Some time you may get confused between thoughts and dreams of the day dreamers.

All lazy fellows are day dreamers. If you are dreaming in the day then watch out for the problem.

It is a two edged sword. As you stated we all want the things that knowledge can bring. But to get it we must first have the knowledge to build it. Confucius say to have is to hold but to hold one must first desire.

OOPS SORRY THAT WAS ME