Osmosis in Electronics

Reverse Osmosis is a separation process. Although it does get used in electronics manufacture, a number of other processes are needed as well. Your best bet is to talk to someone who knows about these things.

Think softly.

It is a process by which molecules of a solvent tend to pass through a semipermeable membrane from a less concentrated solution into a more concentrated one, thus equalizing the concentrations on each side of the membrane.

Crabtree is right, reverse osmosis is used in water treatment. Osmosis is a natural process.

Clinical applications? Sure.

I was thinking more on the process of electron diffusion in semiconductors, between junctions!

when electrons breaks or leaks thru junctions which may behave possibly like a permeable membrane in an RO system?

You're talking complete nonsense.

This will not be a particularly useful analogy.

True that Osmosis (whether forward or reverse) is a natural physicochemical phenomenon. It comes about based upon pressure difference (osmotic or applied) across a membrane where the transport coefficients for the solvent (typically water), and the solutes (salts, sugars, simple molecules, gases) are not the same, preferably in most cases that the solute transport coefficients are low, and the solvent transport coefficient is a large number. It applies in biology (of trees, for example), in water purification in various industrial sites, and it applies within stratified geology over a long period of time (low transport numbers of both).

In semiconductors, there are charge carriers, not "holes" that allow passage of current. Holes are site vacancies in the crystal lattice that carry a positive charge, and are as useful as electrons as charge carriers. Insulator layers have a paucity of charge carriers, hence non-conducting. Potential does play a similar role to water pressure in dictating the magnitude and direction of current, but the analogy breaks down when comparisons are made to Osmosis, and rather quickly.

Just say no.

I give up.

Mr. James S.

I do understand that by just the mere difference in concentration of two fluids which are separated by a permeable membrane will develop osmotic pressure or gradient and therefore ionic exchanges takes place and happens normally even without adding any pressure to the system...

What I'm trying to do is develop A better /improved understanding via the field of electrical /electronics... I also believe that most behaviors of things can be simulated or represented using electrical /electronics representations?

You're still talking complete nonsense.

It may be nonsense to you, but different people have different thought processes: different ways of understanding things. The OP's thought process seems quite logical to me.

I was always taught: "If you can't say something nice, then don't say anything." I still try to follow that advice, although sometimes it is very difficult, and of course once in a while I ignore it.

Nah, let's all just choke the living sh** out of anyone who asks a "different" question with an alternative (but still wrong) viewpoint.

If an engineer is out in the forest and has one word to say, is he still wrong?

Looking at things differently doesn't necessarily make things right or wrong either!

As new technological discoveries may later prove....like there is now a new type of semiconductor device using nanotechnology...somehow has been documented to exist and further being research and improved in a Korean University facility.

It is called an "Ionic Diode"! (I googled "semiconductor ionic exchanges")?

You may be able to relate and understand it in a much better way than I can... The Nanotechnology subject is way way beyond my time, field of studies and knowledge!

Thanks...

Yes he is, if he's married.

Gosh, I feel all better now, it's time to go home.

Go back to physical chemistry text that discusses chemical potential.

Chemical potential is more or less proportional to concentration. This is what is the driving force for osmosis from high concentration to low. To overcome this takes applied pressure. In forward osmosis, there is no applied driving pressure as such, the solution on the backside of the membrane is at a higher concentration (can be sugar, not even has to be the same solute), thus the advent of water packs that can be used for a sugary drink in the field for soldiers from even polluted waters that is safe to drink. OR the draw solution can something like ammonium bicarbonate that breaks down and evolves out of solution at low temperatures like 40-60 °C. Leaves behind pure water that came from even sea water. The gases are recovered and bubbled back into new cold draw solution. Cycle repeats.

It is true, the environment I was referring to is on the molecular level where electrons I believe exist... When subjected to certain conditions such as pressure and temperature change, triggers some actions /reactions, chemically or electrically!

It's roughly analogous to what happens inside a diode.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_current

Rixter.....

I was thinking about that same line too! where semiconductor junctions acting as permeable membrane medium that electrons can pass thru when exposed to either positive or negative pressure of fluid dynamics as in an RO system..

This same scenario I believe may also exist in an electrical or electronics environment when semi-conductor junctions are exposed or subjected to some proper biasing conditions... By doing so may possibly be restricting or letting some currents to cross that barrier?

It is still not a useful or practical analogy. Think more in terms of electronic charge carriers, Fermi levels, free energy, conduction bands, valence bands, etc., and you might get somewhere.

I was kind of thinking the analogy of osmotic pressure due to difference in concentration being like the junction potential due to the different concentrations of p and n on each side of a diode junction. Deep as it got.

I would not press that analogy very far, as it really does not model correctly as an analogous treatment mathematically.

"pressure of fluid dynamics" ?

In a manner of speaking there is something causing the dynamics, but it is not fluid pressure.

Lyn, Difference in fluid concentrations is enough to cause ionic flow! I believe that triggers osmosis naturally!

Correct.

Electrical potential could,very loosely, be compared to ionic flow, I guess.

I was under the impression that ions are part of molecules and therefore has electrical potentials?

I may be wrong with this understanding and in the process the reason(s) why asking for some expert opinions....

It seems to me you're trying to take a backdoor approach to linking the macro and quantum worlds...Trying to pervert the meaning of words to suit some pseudoscientific hypothetical theory that has no basis in truth, you sir are comparing apples and oranges....and I might add, doing a damn poor job of it....

S.E.,

It may have sounded/ appeared in a perverted way, at times may even be convoluted ..but if that is your take, I'll gladly accept and respect your opinion Sir!

I was just seeking for something to enlighten my thoughts, possibly help widen my rusted understanding.. That was my objective in posting!

I've been involved in so many different fields with varying degree of success and somehow accomplished a lot during those past working years.... And employing this "perverted approach" was found to be one of the effective tools I've used to prove /train majority of my graduate staff...

Thank you..

There are these things called libraries, they are full of books. Go there, find some books, and read them!

Ions carry charges with them, negative (anions) or positive (cations). Electrical potential applied to a solution of ions (salts) will result in ion migration, among other processes such as destruction of the water by electrolysis or breakdown of the electrodes.

Think more in terms of ionic chemical potential, and you are onto something.

My thinking is geared more on the electrical /electronics /semiconductor aspects....trying to relate to its ionic characteristics side and in comparison to the ionic exchanges happening as it is used in RO units or in dialysis applications....

Doping /implanting ions onto a substrate which will affect the material behaviors, as in semiconductors PN junction, may yield a comparably same results when applied or used in another application, as in dialysis that clean ones blood... two differing subjects of usage. applications that to me appears to be quite similar since both reactions occurs in the ionic level of its individual applications?

It seems you have a better and thorough understanding on this level of chemical action/ reactions, that may be able to expand it further that can help me digest and learn from?

It may have appeared as a comparison between apples and oranges, but to me is really not...

Thank you..

It may have appeared as a comparison between apples and oranges, but to me is really not...

Only when you really simplify things do they appear to act the same and hence properties and actions can be loosely interchangeable, especially if you concentrate only on certain properties (the example of water flowing through a pipe being a simple approximation of current flow through a wire, ohms law simplified to R=V/I, etc).

Another example would be like comparing apples to oranges. Yes they are identical and interchangeable in that they are both round, yes they are identical in that they are both fruit, etc, etc. The problem is fundamentally they are not the same, never were and can never be made to be the same.

We can tell you you are wrong in your understanding but you shouldn't just take our word for it. As others have suggested, performing more research yourself would greatly help your understanding as to WHY we are saying you are wrong and help to direct your further investigations and develop your ideas further.

While it is true that "doping" the silicon with one type of substituent atom or another changes the conduction characteristics, there is really no analogy to that in the fabrication of RO membranes. The material does not get "doped". The only dope is the idiot that attempts to run an RO system on brackish chlorinated water without any pretreatment to prevent ruining the membranes.