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Guru

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Electrically Powered Aircraft - Again

01/02/2017 3:46 PM

Surprised to find even Rolls-Royce are championing aircraft powered by electric motors.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/12/31/rolls-royce-future-flight-electric/

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Guru

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#1

Re: Electrically powered aircraft - again.

01/02/2017 4:51 PM
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Guru

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Electrically powered aircraft - again.

01/02/2017 5:55 PM

2014 actually, but never mind. Haven't see Aviation Week in decades - use to love it. Still can't see the energy density of rechargeable batteries ever approaching that of carbon-based liquid fuels. For fun planes - maybe. Airliners - surely not.

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#10
In reply to #2

Re: Electrically powered aircraft - again.

01/03/2017 3:45 PM

Maybe they plan to use molten silicon as energy storage...1 MWh/m3!!!

That far surpasses batteries.

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#3
In reply to #1

Re: Electrically powered aircraft - again.

01/02/2017 6:51 PM

Wow! Comparatively, air and rail look like they are doing a great job of limiting particulate emissions for the total power utilized.

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Guru

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#5
In reply to #1

Re: Electrically powered aircraft - again.

01/03/2017 1:20 AM

Is there some way to disable autoplay on these things?

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Guru

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: Electrically powered aircraft - again.

01/03/2017 6:05 AM

I didn't know what was happening when Windows Media opened up. In fact nothing happened for a while, so I closed it down. On going back to it again I find there's a video on the "Sugar Volt" - if you wait, and it reveals that it is a fanjet/electric hybrid. Now it makes some sense.

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Electrically powered aircraft - again.

01/03/2017 12:21 PM

The video is from 2012....

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#8
In reply to #5

Re: Electrically powered aircraft - again.

01/03/2017 12:22 PM

Hehe no....just press the pause button....

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#12
In reply to #1

Re: Electrically powered aircraft - again.

01/03/2017 11:15 PM

Solar Eagle, I like your chart. Do you have side by side comparison chart if all of the modes of transportation used electric drive, with the electric motor / battery production-recycling added in.

Showing the pm & co2 .

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Electrically powered aircraft - again.

01/04/2017 1:53 AM

What would the advantage be for battery powered shipping?

Shipping involves long periods at sea and so long periods between recharging from any land based power plant.

Potential for regenerative braking is minuscule.

Perhaps if there was some advantage to shipping freight subsurface, batteries would become a necessity. I doubt travelling the tangent cuts enough off the trip to offset the expense being able to operate submerged though.

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: Electrically powered aircraft - again.

01/04/2017 10:11 AM

I wish people would listen. A very small injection of hydrogen into ICE burning Bunker C will improve that fuel economy (and also any other fuel injected vehicle) by 30%. There is now a way to get the hydrogen without oxygen made in the cell by using waste iron (or at least forming the electrodes from waste iron (pig iron is best), and using AC electrolysis. The iron loss precipitates as oxide, thereby typing up the oxygen, pure hydrogen carries into cylinder through the air intake.

The patent for this ACE HOD tech is for sale, at least I think it is. $7,000,000 in fuel savings each year of service just for one container ship. Really.

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Electrically powered aircraft - again.

01/05/2017 12:27 AM

Are you saying that the average automobile could have improved fuel efficiency by adding a system using electrolysis to split water with the hydrogen added to the intake and the o2 not (just dumped overboard, or held as an oxide)?

Are you, James Stewart, championing the use of electrolytic cells in automobiles for efficiency gains?

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: Electrically powered aircraft - again.

01/05/2017 9:25 AM

I will say this: Even with oxygenated fuels added to gasoline, the flame front will not keep up with the pistons under maximum acceleration or rpms (although this is not overdrive, cruise control conditions).

Hydrogen has the known highest flame velocity of any fuel available. Only a small amount of hydrogen is needed, only a total complete moron can refute this.

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#17
In reply to #16

Re: Electrically powered aircraft - again.

01/05/2017 2:03 PM

'...a total complete moron can refute this. ...'

.

Er, what? .....and what's up with resorting to name calling right off the bat?

There has been significant ridicule (not necessarily undeserved) of such ideas in the past here on CR4. I had assume you were well aware of this and we're either letting that bait dangle, or you actually intended something else.

.

The idea that small additions of hydrogen might allow more complete burning, especially of less volatile higher viscosity slower burning fuel, like diesel, makes intuitive sense. The problem is, where are the studies supporting this? The best I have seen is a study from the 70s (I think) about using engine heat for most of the heat needed for steam reformation of fuel for hydrogen. There were some modest gains IIRC. Though I do believe the amount of hydrogen introduced was significant and the equipment necessary not trivial in size/cost/complexity of operation.

.

Beyond that haven't seen anything suggesting you might be able to use electrolysis driven by an alternator to improve fuel efficiency. I'd be very interested in reading a decent peer reviewed study to that effect.

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#18
In reply to #17

Re: Electrically powered aircraft - again.

01/05/2017 3:00 PM

Probably isn't a "peer-reviewed study", just some stuff done by a Ph.D. Certified Public Engineer who has worked in the nuclear and semi-conductor industries, and is an independent business owner in the pharmaceuticals field.

Here is a link: phillips company hydrogen update

The Quest project is international (part of that group is in the UK, other part here in the US. The objective is to find the easiest way to pure hydrogen from electrochemical means (non-thermal means, although thermal inputs are clearly allowed).

30% fuel economy improvement using the ACE cell

If I were you I would seriously look at this, it is real, the technology is dirt cheap, and simple as pie. I can't believe that someone else didn't figure this out a long time ago, heck maybe they did, and the hit men from GM took them out of the picture?

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#19
In reply to #18

Re: Electrically powered aircraft - again.

01/05/2017 10:36 PM

Come on. Truly?

"...If I were you I would seriously look at this...". Even though you are not me, being serious in your evaluations of an idea you champion/promote is very important.

I find it hard to believe you looked seriously at what you linked.

This guy (under the auspices of the accomplished sounding 'Philips Company'...no, not that one....and no, not that one either) is claiming a 30% increase in fuel economy by comparing the window sticker fuel economy rating (as the control/without h2 addition) to the car computer estimate of instant fuel economy with hydrogen addition.

He even has a photograph of the digital display reading instant mpg in the 30s, with arrows to indicate the importance.

Total rubbish. I don't know if he actually believes that is a reasonable method revealing much if anything useful, or if he is doing a very poor job of trying to trick everyone else. In either case it reflect very poorly on him.

.

You probably just grabbed the first thing that popped up without really looking closely enough. You might have been thinking of a different paper and got them confused. Whatever the case, you should rescind your support/promotion of this paper.

.

If you find something decent, I would still appreciate reading it.

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#20
In reply to #19

Re: Electrically powered aircraft - again.

01/06/2017 12:14 PM

Let me put it this way, I have known that gentleman for a number of years, and I trust him many more orders of magnitude than I do you.

I generally don't believe anything you say, or discount it as poop.

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: Electrically powered aircraft - again.

01/07/2017 4:40 AM

If you believe that taking a photo of the cars fuel economy display and comparing that to the window sticker fuel economy represents sound reasonable research, then I am quite happy to hear you say you don't believe anything I say. Being in the company of things you believe sounds like a threat.

I don't understand your addition at the end: "or discount it as poop". You structured the sentence such that is should be coordinated with the verb 'don't" as in you 'don't discount it as poop'.

But, to what are you referring? ..and (forgive me for my lack of familiarity with an area of your expertise) do you discount poop often? How much are you discounting it? Is this your own, or are you a poop broker?

I have no interest in acquiring any, mind you. It just catches me by surprise. It there really a market for this stuff? Does anyone accept "I have known that gentleman for a number of years" as logical rebuttal to a statement point out the deeply flawed method and assumptions of a 'paper' you linked? If so, the market for poop is far more robust than I would have thought.

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#22
In reply to #17

Re: Electrically powered aircraft - again.

01/13/2017 11:38 PM

"Beyond that haven't seen anything suggesting you might be able to use electrolysis driven by an alternator to improve fuel efficiency."
How could that be possible? Would that not require overunity?
What is the efficiency factor of the electrolytic process? What is the efficiency factor of the power production process?

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#23
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Re: Electrically powered aircraft - again.

01/14/2017 12:00 AM

Indeed.

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#24
In reply to #22

Re: Electrically powered aircraft - again.

01/17/2017 10:59 AM

I can't believe you guys. No one said this was even remotely near over unity.

I am just saying that hydrogen (a small percent of the original energy flow input to the engine before the hydrogen use), causes combustion to take place more completely, in other words for those who have to have it spelled out : you burn all the fuel more completely when some small amount of hydrogen is injected into the stream.

Flame front keeps up with piston during the power stroke, result is all or virtually all of the fuel charge is completely combusted. That is the heart of, the intent of, and the active principle of the invention (that has already been patented, btw).

We have an old saying: "You can lead a mule to water, but only an Aggie will make her suck mud". Forget about trying to get them to drink.

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#25
In reply to #24

Re: Electrically powered aircraft - again.

01/17/2017 11:33 PM

It's a nice story and all, it just doesn't hold up well outside story land.

The flammability limit on the low side is 4% of H2 (by volume).

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#4

Re: Electrically Powered Aircraft - Again

01/02/2017 7:30 PM

It can be done, refueling from "Mr. Sun". But it will never be practical for carrying passengers...

http://www.solarimpulse.com/adventure

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#9
In reply to #4

Re: Electrically Powered Aircraft - Again

01/03/2017 2:23 PM

They (will) compete with satellites. They can be used over highly populated areas for radio, laser, imaging, etc. It's much cheaper to put in a "geosynchronous orbit" and can be reconfigured/repaired if needed. But this is very specific utility.

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#11
In reply to #4

Re: Electrically Powered Aircraft - Again

01/03/2017 3:47 PM

At least wing walkers would be able to walk over the ocean if it were built to airliner size (if they didn't die of old age during the trip).

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